Stadiums and Arenas of Canada

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by Chadillaccc

I'd also like to see Victoria with a team, Windsor would be cool too as I see it as probably the most removed South Ontarian city, which would create an interesting rivalry paradigm... though I don't know if the CFL would really gain much traction there as Windsor is so closely knit with Detroit.

By 2030 or 2040 I could even see Lethbridge get a team, as by then, the metro area will be between 150 000 and 200 000 people.

Size wise, Victoria makes the most sense. Culturally, other western cities make more sense. Windsor is an interesting market, but the priority is surely Ottawa, Halifax, and Quebec City.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by Prometheus

I always find it hilarious when people say foolish things like this.

The CFL ratings absolutely crushed the NFL ratings by about a factor of four. Nope, NO interest in the CFL there.

I play in a flag football league in Toronto. There are quite a few NFL fans in the league and almost all of them share one thing in common. They assume that no one watches the CFL because they don't. They're visibly shocked when they find out how many of us do.

In Canada, the CFL creams the NFL in terms of television audience and its always been that way. There have been a few years in the last decade where the Super Bowl edged out the Grey Cup, but those years are aberrations.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Grey Cup numbers twice as high as Super Bowl numbers this year. When Canadians were asked to name symbols of Canada they mentioned things like the flag and the Constitution. The Grey Cup came in 7th. That says a lot. It's a national institution.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by go_leafs_go02

I grew up in London. I never talked CFL with anyone there, it was the Leafs, the Knights, the Jays, and even the NFL from time to time (Bills or Lions).

Maybe it was my limited experience, but I've rarely heard someone mention that the CFL should ever put a franchise in London, which btw, has a much large metro population than Halifax does, same goes to Moncton.

And the ratings give no indication to where the viewership is. I'm not talking to the GTA/Toronto, but Southwestern Ontario.

There is an expression that applies: birds of a feather flock together. Not having a team is certainly going to lower the interest in the CFL so you're likely right that London isn't a big CFL town. When it comes to football, isn't London a Mustangs town?

I don't think anyone could deny that the CFL reached an all time low in southern Ontario between 1990 and 2005. It's been on a slow but steady up turn ever since. If the league continues to get stronger in this region, its inevitable that Londoners will start following the league in greater numbers.

Windsor is another story altogether.

[osmo]

Originally Posted by Prometheus

And yet the hard, cold numbers don't lie. But I guess you will tell us that the millions of people who watch the Toronto Argos on TSN come from everywhere except Toronto. And that the sold out Grey Cup, which will be packed with people wearing double blue this Sunday, must be an illusion.

When was the last time Rogers Centre was sold out? It certainly wasn't when the Buffalo Bills were in town, despite Rogers giving thousands of tickets away and their home fans being just across the lake.

It is an illusion the City (Toronto) has zero traction with the CFL. The Grey Cup was sold out months ago, it did not matter whom was playing. The CFL brass has done a good job marketing the importance of the 100th Grey Cup culturally to Canadians and Canadians took the chance to see the big game live, Game has been sold out since the summer I believe.

The CFL picked Toronto for branding/marketing/executive reasons not because Toronto was a jewel of a market. Remember Originally Regina was mused as the 100th Grey Cup host prior to the league shifting its focus to rotating into the Big 3 markets to keep sponsors and TSN happy. The Argos lets remember barley got 10,000 a game this season, and are now musing to move into a 12,000 seat tin shed at York University in 2015.

The CFL is in a coma in this town.

The majority of viewers from the East final came from SWO and Western Canada. I am from Sask and even if the Green Riders aren't playing we will still watch football, we simply just go into a trance and have the game on no matter whom is playing.

There will probably be more Rider fans at this 100th Grey Cup then Argo fans. Even the Argo pep rally, My HS Pep Rallys for Football were larger. There was maybe 200 people there at best. The CFL is in the dog house here in Toronto. Toronto folks are nutty for NFL, NHL, and EPL. The Raptors are still always a big draw, even now as they stink it up. The Blue Jays hold sentimental value and have done a good job to lure in a younger fanbase, and Aside from the old guard that remember the golden years many Blue Jay fans are close to my age now (early 20's) and enjoy going to a game to get drunk in the cheap seats and relax in the summertime.

I knock the Argos because they do a crap job captivating the fanbase here. Mind you they have been a roller-coaster for 15 years but they have still seen success on the field in those times. My big beef is they don't sell them selves on their biggest assets: History and Value enough. And the issue of not being able to find somebody local whom is captivated enough to plunk down cash to own the team is a issue too. More and more this is a reason why the CFL should abandon this Ownership musical chairs model and adopt a Central Model like the MLS where the league essentially owns the teams and pools in all revenues and distributes them accordingly.

Make the CFL a money making fund that fat cats can pay into and get returns out of and then you can market more efficiently without having to worry about scabs and welfare teams like the Ti-Cats and Argos. The CFL already centrally controls the biggest games (West+East Finals & The Grey Cup) and from our observations and from what they tell you in the press this venture has proven to be successful and a money maker for the league (not so much the teams, only cash now is HOSTING the GC not winning it). The biggest money maker - The Green-Riders - are essentially non-profit and have no true owner. They did the time building the brand, people forget the Riders used to be a mess and in the dog house for many years but they got their house in order and established their brand and now they are a ATM. The league needs to adopt this strategy league wide IMO as its the only way to save the scabs of Hamilton and Toronto while seeing a stable path towards expansion as the league can absorb the initial losses of the Expansion Franchise more easily versus trying to sucker somebody to sign up to loose money for 5-6 years right off the bat. The MLS has done this beautifully and in a lot of places does not pool in CFL money, or attendance at all.

Some MLS markets are complete dogs and welfare teams, but in the big picture it does not effect the larger league as the MLS still makes money each year. The CFL - IMO - has more branding power then MLS, the MLS may have access to bigger numbers being American based but you can't put a price of 100 years+ of History. Even the NFL would wish for it as its something you can always hang your hat on. This is why Baseball still remains important in America even though demographic shifts have gone against it. its an American institution and is thoroughly embedded in American-Culture and History. I am hoping Cohon goes this route eventually and pools in enough money to "buy out" the other owners and brings everything in house. The CFL 'Governors' already run and steer the ship, all the infrastructure and control of the league is centralized somewhat but the most important factor.. them money .. isn't yet.

*exhales*

/rant

[circle33]

The Argos lets remember barley got 10,000 a game this season, and are now musing to move into a 12,000 seat tin shed at York University in 2015.

Well though out post, though I'm not sure either of the quoted points are accurate. While Argos actual attendance is always brought into question by the local scribes, announced crowds were in the low to mid 20's this season and probably not too far off the actual count. No one involved in the organization is seriously contemplating the move to York.

[FrankieFlowerpot]

And where is this 12,500 seat tin shed at York University - it's going to be a 3,000 seat facility after the 2015 games. The remaining 9,500 seats are temporary for the games only

[Berklon]

[QUOTE=Prometheus;5910212]And yet the hard, cold numbers don't lie. But I guess you will tell us that the millions of people who watch the Toronto Argos on TSN come from everywhere except Toronto. And that the sold out Grey Cup, which will be packed with people wearing double blue this Sunday, must be an illusion.[quote]

Well what are the "cold numbers" based on? The ratings are based on a sample size and are extrapolated to the population. How big is the sample size in the rating measurement?

When was the last time Rogers Centre was sold out? It certainly wasn't when the Buffalo Bills were in town, despite Rogers giving thousands of tickets away and their home fans being just across the lake.

So you're comparing a regular season game which are charged at extremely high prices to watch 2 teams of OTHER cities play with a 100th year anniversary Championship game in which the host city has a team playing? Really?

So how do the Argos do attendance-wise during the regular season?

If you think Toronto couldn't sell out 50,000+ regular season game for THEIR OWN NFL team - then you're delusional.

[Berklon]

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN

That is so sad that you and your co-workers are so blind to something that is truly Canadian. Don't mean to say that you have to watch the CFL, but don't just dismiss it out of hand.

Actually, I used to be a big CFL fan from the last 70's to the early 90's. Have always payed some attention the NFL, but have been a little more faithful to the NFL in the last 7 years.

One of the major problems I have with the CFL is that it's a league of only 8 teams. It's hard to get excited when it's the same teams over and over and almost everyone makes the playoffs. The other big problem is that there's no comparison to the level of talent the NFL has. It's a night and day difference. The truth is, the CFL mainly consists of players who can't make the NFL. It feels like a farm league.

[osmo]

Originally Posted by circle33

Well though out post, though I'm not sure either of the quoted points are accurate. While Argos actual attendance is always brought into question by the local scribes, announced crowds were in the low to mid 20's this season and probably not too far off the actual count. No one involved in the organization is seriously contemplating the move to York.

I've heard this stat also but then it can be disputed because Sports teams in all pro leagues are free to announce all *paid* tickets as "attendance". This counts a seat that costs $10.00 but it also counts seats that are $0.00. It does not take into account obviously whom physically passed through the gates and sat in their seats for a portion of the game. So getting an exactly number is difficult unless we are able to scan Argo reports at the end of the year (have no idea if they make those public). But you can easily gauge from sight and make a rough estimate for me my gauge is just visually from Blue Jay games even at the Jays dumpiest stretches they will pull about 13K at the very least (sometimes worse) and many times the Rogers Centre looked more sparse then those Jays games for Argo games.

And in regards to York - nothing is off the table. The Argos will have an expiring lease soon and do have the option to renew but how convenient the next lease-tenure ends in 2015. The last talks of The Argos + York we're canned when that facility was ditched the first time, but now that is being brought back on-line its a fools game to think the Argos would not try to think to toss some cash at York to get control of a smaller open air facilities which they could strike a more favourable revenue generation agreement with.

In May 2005, the Toronto Argonauts agreed to three five-year leases at Rogers Centre, which could see the Argonauts playing out of Rogers Centre up to and including 2019. The team has the option to leave at the end of each of the three lease agreements. The Argos also announced that they will not move into a new stadium that was being planned at York University, a project which York subsequently cancelled -Wiki

As it sits right now The Argos get all the crap days to schedule games and they do not get the advantage of scheduling in the peak summer months. They Jays, Raptors, Leafs all take advantage of the post-work crowd also. The Argos rarely get this benefit because 9 times out of ten the Jays get these dates or the dates fall to close to do a turn-around with the FieldTurf between Argo and Blue Jays matchups.

By the time the Jays season ends and the DeFacto "playoff block" when the dome mostly sits empty (just in case the Jays make a run) The Argos then get a host of Home games in dumpy October/November when either they are dead out of the race or nobody has the attention span any more to care with Hockey and Basketball starting up.

No way knocking the Big Blue here I am just stating the obvious flaws in how they operate their business (by choice or by being forced).

Also convenient that the Blue Jays are still mulling on the prospects of installing real grass at Rogers Centre. I have no idea what CFL policy was but I imagine their was a league wide effort to go all Field-Turf once Edmonton decided to scrap its legendary (but problematic at times I admit) grass. The Riders in a span of a few short years spent money plopping down new Astroturf only to turn around a few years later and plop down FieldTurf. The stuff was around back then so I don't get why it was not done right the first time unless it became a league-wide mandate.

Its all to easy for the Argos. They can walk away from Rogers Centre without no repercussions legally/financially and have a ready to go facility (with some tweaks) ready to go up at York.

In regards to the NFL. Yes Toronto could support a team but it would no hinder the Argos in any such way. The NFL would be such a costly ticket that a lot of fans (like me) would be priced out and the Argos would remain a good value entertainment option for fans and families. I just don;t think the NFL could get a Stadium for 60K fans built up here though, only roadblock to it all.

Originally Posted by Berklon

Actually, I used to be a big CFL fan from the last 70's to the early 90's. Have always payed some attention the NFL, but have been a little more faithful to the NFL in the last 7 years.

One of the major problems I have with the CFL is that it's a league of only 8 teams. It's hard to get excited when it's the same teams over and over and almost everyone makes the playoffs. The other big problem is that there's no comparison to the level of talent the NFL has. It's a night and day difference. The truth is, the CFL mainly consists of players who can't make the NFL. It feels like a farm league.

I would say that last part is a myth. I am a NFL fan over a CFL fan, I appreciate the CFL game as its what I grew up with and played but I prefer the NFL for its superior talent also. But I do not agree the CFL is just full of scabs whom can't make it down south. You have a lot of American players whom are "good" down south and then come up here and are crap.

The issue with CFL talent IMO:

A. NFL Practice Squads have good talent rotting away in America for a decent okay paycheque. The CFL needs to find ways to generate more revenue to close this gap. Some players would take the chance to actually play in meaningful games if the dollar$ made scense.

B. The CFL player set is unique just like the NFL player set. I can't say one is more talented then the other because both games value and require different skill sets. Right now in America you can easily different the NFL skill sets for each position and you can groom players form a young age to meet this. Players by 3rd year of HS to College will know if they meet this and will be placed accordingly whiten the College ranks. If players in the USA knew that a alternative existed that more suited their skillsets they could be more strategic in how they went about things. I suspect that many CFL players are playing basketball or some other sport in the States when their Football dreams fizzled out.

C. We need more and better coaches. It seems the same CFL cabal has been running the show since I was a kid. You have legendary Coaches all across the league but where are the new young up-and comers. You have Dickerson in Calgary and Milanovich in Toronto but both we're Journey men whom used their whole career as a spring board to try and play consistent ball in the NFL. These guys where never raised and groomed in the CFL system. We will see a drop off in coaching in a few years like we have seen in Quarterbacks?

Hopefully we can get to a day when with the Rights on players we get if somebody is working their wheels on a team with too much depth at his position he can come up here instead of being stubborn to grind out his legs in practice for paycheck down south.

These are just my observations I am hoping CFL die-hards can chime in.

[FrankieFlowerpot]

Where's all the parking for this CFL Stadium at York?

[Prometheus]

Originally Posted by Berklon

Well what are the "cold numbers" based on?

All the data comes from BBM Canada, the country's leading audience measurement firm. If you are interested in their methodology, you can call them. In the meantime, here are the most recent regular season ratings numbers for the CFL versus the NFL, NBA and MLB World Series:


OCTOBER 26 - OCTOBER 31

CFL

TOR-SSK, Oct 27, TSN: 1.026 million
BC-CGY, Oct 26, TSN: 701, 000
WPG-HAM, Oct 28, TSN: 672, 000
EDM-MTL, Oct 28, TSN: 546, 000

NFL

NYG-DAL, Oct 28, Citytv: 508, 000
NO-DEN, Oct 28, TSN: 339, 000
SF-ARZ, Oct 29, TSN: 396, 000

NBA (SEASON OPENER)

IND-TOR, Oct 31, TSN: 346, 000

MLB (WORLD SERIES)

DET-SF (g1), Oct 24, SN: 801, 000
DET-SF (g2), Oct 25, SN: 729, 000
SF-DET (g3), Oct 27, SN: 779, 000
SF-DET (g4), Oct 28, SN: 792, 000

All numbers are BBM Canada 2+

Source


NOVEMBER 1 - NOVEMBER 6

CFL

HAM-TOR, Nov 1, TSN: 769, 000
CGY-EDM, Nov 2, TSN: 725, 000
MTL-WPG, Nov 2, TSN: 642, 000
SSK-BC, Nov 3, TSN: 828, 000

NFL

KC-SD, Nov 1, SN: 213, 000
DAL-ATL, Nov 4, TSN: 577, 000
PHI-NO, Nov 5, TSN: 580, 000

NBA

TOR-BRK, Nov 3 SN: 185, 000
TOR-OKC, Nov 6, TSN: 91, 000

All numbers BBM Canada 2+

Source

[VANRIDERFAN]

Originally Posted by Berklon

Actually, I used to be a big CFL fan from the last 70's to the early 90's. Have always payed some attention the NFL, but have been a little more faithful to the NFL in the last 7 years.

One of the major problems I have with the CFL is that it's a league of only 8 teams. It's hard to get excited when it's the same teams over and over and almost everyone makes the playoffs. The other big problem is that there's no comparison to the level of talent the NFL has. It's a night and day difference. The truth is, the CFL mainly consists of players who can't make the NFL. It feels like a farm league.

I seem to recall (according to NFL fans) that Ricky Williams was going to gain 2 to 300 yds a game. Didn't happen
Anyone remember Vince Ferragamo? Came to Montreal the year after a Super Bowl appearance. He was an interception machine when he played here.

Brandon Browner of the Seahawks - former Stampeder
Jerrel Freeman of the Colts - former Roughrider
John Chick of the Jags - former Roughrider
Thigpen of the Dolphins - former Roughrider/Tigercat
Cameron Wake of the Dolphins - former Lion

You talk to any NFL player who played in the CFL, the talent level is not that much different between the leagues. And many NFL guys who are an injury away from starting that come to Canada get a big eye opener when they take the field. They are not going to run roughshod over CFL players.

The smaller NFL field make their QB's look like gods. When Manning throws that wide side out there is 12 less yards for him to throw. So it looks like the ball is getting there much faster than a Burris throw.
Also with all the camera angles and the number of games each week give the NFL a huge number of highlight video over the CFL (16 games vs 4). Which means that for every highlight catch in the CFL there are 4 in the NFL, this reinforces the illusion that the NFL is far superior.
Finally, Americans blow Canadians out of the water when it comes to selling snake oil, and trust me Pete Rozelle was the king of snake oil salesmen. With NFL films, betting, and four major networks salivating every time the NFL shakes its booty. It’s no wonder that many a young man in Canada has been seduced by the NFL harlot.

I enjoy both leagues; I'm a rabid Roughrider fan and an avid Packer fan. But I also know and appreciate the differences that make each league great!

[osmo]

Originally Posted by FrankieFlowerpot

Where's all the parking for this CFL Stadium at York?

There is going to be a Subway line right on Campus. It will be closer to the TTC then Skydome currently is actually. Plus their is parking at the Tennis Facility and near and above Steeles is swaths of nothing if a substantial parking type facility is needed.

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN

The smaller NFL field make their QB's look like gods. When Manning throws that wide side out there is 12 less yards for him to throw. So it looks like the ball is getting there much faster than a Burris throw.
Also with all the camera angles and the number of games each week give the NFL a huge number of highlight video over the CFL (16 games vs 4). Which means that for every highlight catch in the CFL there are 4 in the NFL, this reinforces the illusion that the NFL is far superior.
Finally, Americans blow Canadians out of the water when it comes to selling snake oil, and trust me Pete Rozelle was the king of snake oil salesmen. With NFL films, betting, and four major networks salivating every time the NFL shakes its booty. It’s no wonder that many a young man in Canada has been seduced by the NFL harlot.

I enjoy both leagues; I'm a rabid Roughrider fan and an avid Packer fan. But I also know and appreciate the differences that make each league great!

This is all true per se' my only beef thoough is that CFL Lineman are horrid. They are too small to block anything at all and look goofy being upright just running around tossing their arms around - The sack and pressure is a non-existent factor in the CFL game (But skillfull pass-rushers look like gods out there with the lack of equals with them in the trenches). I have no idea where they find these guys, the best pass rushers due to their speed get a easy ticket to the NFL I find but the other guys don't always look so great.

I think that is the most underrated feature of the NFL game is that the Linemen and Ends are impressive athletes for their size. They are the ones whom largely set the pace for the explosive QBs you talk about and for the run game. They never get enough credit but IMO they are the biggest difference makers between the speed of the CFL and NFL game.

[VANRIDERFAN]

Originally Posted by osmo

There is going to be a Subway line right on Campus. It will be closer to the TTC then Skydome currently is actually. Plus their is parking at the Tennis Facility and near and above Steeles is swaths of nothing if a substantial parking type facility is needed.



This is all true per se' my only beef thoough is that CFL Lineman are horrid. They are too small to block anything at all and look goofy being upright just running around tossing their arms around - The sack and pressure is a non-existent factor in the CFL game (But skillfull pass-rushers look like gods out there with the lack of equals with them in the trenches). I have no idea where they find these guys, the best pass rushers due to their speed get a easy ticket to the NFL I find but the other guys don't always look so great.

I think that is the most underrated feature of the NFL game is that the Linemen and Ends are impressive athletes for their size. They are the ones whom largely set the pace for the explosive QBs you talk about and for the run game. They never get enough credit but IMO they are the biggest difference makers between the speed of the CFL and NFL game.

Yes an NFL tight end is impressive and I am surprised that CFL coaches don't employ that type of person more. The issue with linemen is the size of field and the lack of time between plays. CFL linemen who played down south state that they have to shed pounds when they are in Canada because they would only last a half before they are completly gassed.

[The_Architect]

This conversation has been mindblowingly awful (and difficult to follow).

My favourite part is saying the Argos "barely" got over 10,000 per game (they never once dropped below 20,000). Also that York thing is utter baloney.




Another note: NFL is freaking boring.

[Acajack]

I think that on the one hand it is not true that nobody cares about the CFL in the GTA and southern Ontario. For one thing its TV ratings are actually pretty good there.

That said, people are kidding themselves if they think the CFL doesn't still have significant problems there. A too large share of the sports fan base is indifferent to the CFL in this area.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by Berklon

The other big problem is that there's no comparison to the level of talent the NFL has. It's a night and day difference.

I wouldn't go that far. Besides, the CFL is many notches better talent than exists in the NCAA and you don't see people there boycotting games to watch the NFL. Football loving Americans turn up en masse to support NCAA football because they love football.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by osmo

The Argos lets remember barley got 10,000 a game this season, and are now musing to move into a 12,000 seat tin shed at York University in 2015.

Your arguments aren't going to hold much weight if you can't get basic facts right. The Argonauts averaged 23,690 fans this season. That's not very good, but far better than the number you say it's at.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN

You talk to any NFL player who played in the CFL, the talent level is not that much different between the leagues. And many NFL guys who are an injury away from starting that come to Canada get a big eye opener when they take the field. They are not going to run roughshod over CFL players.

Exactly. The assertion that the level of talent if far higher in the NFL is a myth that fans of that league like to propagate. Many NFL stars fail miserably when they come to the CFL.

[The_Architect]

Originally Posted by isaidso

Exactly. The assertion that the level of talent if far higher in the NFL is a myth that fans of that league like to propagate. Many NFL stars fail miserably when they come to the CFL.

*cough * Cleo Lemon...