Metro Vancouver Transit Discussion

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Spork

Makes sense from a technical perspective, but from a branding perspective, I don't think that introducing a new name is advantageous at all.

Tell that to the guy who boards a B-Line bus that doesn't stop at the transfer point he's expecting it to stop at.

[Spork]

Why would he expect it to stop there in the first place? The same thing could be said for the 351 down highway 99. It does not stop at every single interchange, and so why should any other highway bus. Pretty simple.

I have seen this type person you are speaking of on the 99 in the past. The fact of the matter is, if one is just hopping on a bus and crossing their fingers, they are absolutely clueless, and are likely already getting lost on SkyTrain.

The B-Line brand lends the line the same express, priority, frequent perceptions that "Rapid Bus" would. No need to invest the time and money to create and maintain another brand.

In fact, it looks like "Rapid Bus" is a BC Transit brand in the first place, which just goes to show that the BC Liberals are just trying to put their PR stamp on the line.

[huenthar]

Originally Posted by Spork

Inconsistency. How is it any different from a B-Line, which is currently known as frequent express service.

yeah, this. We should capitalize on our existing rapid bus branding. Makes the perception of having more comprehensive rapid transit than we do Also puts the route up as an express on Skytrain system maps on the same footing as other B-lines. Basically a rapid bus is still just a bus. But call it a B-line and it sounds like more than just a bus. Just think we should leverage our current brand as much as possible.

[nname]

Here is the definition from TransLink:

B-Line Rapid Transit
B-Line routes provide high frequency, limited-stop bus rapid transit service in several of the region’s busiest travel corridors. Most routes use a dedicated fleet of specially painted, 18 metre articulated buses. B-Line routes extend the rapid transit network from SkyTrain stations to major town centres and activity centres.

Express Coach
Express Coach routes provide fast direct service for longer distance commuter trips between suburban areas and downtown Vancouver or to other regional centres, using highway-style coaches.

Which one should the #555 fall under? The #555 does not have enough frequency to meet the B-Line standard, it is not a limited stop BRT (in fact, it is a non-stop highway shuttle), and it does not use articulated buses. The #555 is an Express Coach as it meets every criteria for it.

If the #555 can be considered to be a B-Line, why not call all express route as a B-Line? The 32 B-Line, 43 B-Line, 44 B-Line, 84 B-Line, 135 B-Line, 160 B-Line, 169 B-Line, 189 B-Line, 257 B-Line, 337 B-Line, 311 B-Line, 351 B-Line, 352 B-Line, 354 B-Line, 394 B-Line, 595 B-Line, 601 B-Line, 602 B-Line, 603 B-Line, 604 B-Line, 620 B-Line, 791 B-Line, and a future 503 B-Line, etc... Soon, there will be no more value for the brand since there are so much of them everywhere...

[Gordon]

Originally the Pot Mann Rapid bus was supposed to use Lougheed Town Center Station. I wonder the change?

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Spork

Why would he expect it to stop there in the first place?

Your original question was: why should the branding be different for the RapidBus route. The reason is that the brand defines what people expect from the service. B-Line services are limited stop services. The fact that the bus is labelled "B-Line" is how someone boarding the bus knows that (a) it doesn't stop at all stops, and (b) it stops only at transfer points.

There's no other "sign" on the bus to tell people that. If we don't distinguish what people are to expect based on the "brand", how else are we to do it?

The value of branding is that it's a concise way to tell people what to expect of the service. If you label both express and limited-stop services as "B-Line" then you've lost that benefit, you might just as well call them "Splorch Bus".

[Spork]

A line is express by the very nature that it is limited stop. One is a benefit, the other is a technical descriptor.

What benefit does Rapid Bus bring? What detriment would B-Line bring? It's simply a matter of consistency. Is it the fact that it is highway and doesn't go through a more urbanized area? It just seems goofy to me to introduce yet another brand and not have guidelines for its use, or any effort at consistency, whether that is calling it B-Line or calling other lines (as nname has indicated) Rapid Bus.

Maintaining a brand isn't free. The more we have, the more Translink must expend to maintain them. The more we have, the more complex transit seems to non-transit users.

Here's a sampling of brands that Translink maintains.

• Translink
• B-Line
• UPass
• Compass
• Community Shuttle
• West Coast Express
• Skytrain
• Canada Line
• Next Bus
• NightBus
• TravelSmart
• OnTrack
• SeaBus
• FareSaver
• GoCard
• HandyCard
• HandyDART
• Buzzer
• AirCare
• ...

The list goes on. My point is not that all of these are completely useless. My point is that it costs money to maintain a brand and adds perceived complexity to the system that acts as a barrier to potential new riders. Yes, consistency in expectations is important, but that also does not mean that every variation in service should have a different brand. Perhaps the 351 and similar routes should have their own brand, as they are "RapidBus" for half of their travel time and a local route for the remainder. Perhaps hybrid bus routes should have their own brand. Perhaps trolley routes should.

My point is that at some point a decision about naming guidelines and brand architecture should be made and followed. To me, this seems like unnecessary proliferation.

[nname]

I don't think they'll call it Rapid Bus, they would just call it the #555. The "Highway 1 Rapid Bus" is just the name of the project, which is no different than "Canada Line Bus Integration", "Service Optimization", "Burnaby Height Community Shuttle", etc. The #555 just happened to be known by everyone as the "Rapid Bus", but many years from now, it would just be the "555". Similarly, few people call #100 the "Midway Connector" or #640 the "Valley to Sea" now...

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by Gordon

Originally the Pot Mann Rapid bus was supposed to use Lougheed Town Center Station. I wonder the change?

Government St. transit ramps probably are not ready yet.

[Spork]

Originally Posted by nname

I don't think they'll call it Rapid Bus, they would just call it the #555. The "Highway 1 Rapid Bus" is just the name of the project, which is no different than "Canada Line Bus Integration", "Service Optimization", "Burnaby Height Community Shuttle", etc. The #555 just happened to be known by everyone as the "Rapid Bus", but many years from now, it would just be the "555". Similarly, few people call #100 the "Midway Connector" or #640 the "Valley to Sea" now...

Thank god. I can be at peace now.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Spork

My point is that at some point a decision about naming guidelines and brand architecture should be made and followed. To me, this seems like unnecessary proliferation.

I ask you again: how is a rider to determine whether he is boarding an express bus or a limited stop bus if not by the brand?

[nname]

The map of from the 2013 service optimization open house:

(Large image, click here)

And I don't want to make image out of every other boards as they'll be online in 2 days. I just list the operating hour and frequency of the modified route here, for the ones listed from the Coquitlam open house material:

- 153 unchanged
- 159 early evening improved to every 30min, rest unchanged
- 188 M-F 6a-9p, Sat 7a-9p, Sun 8a-9p; 30min freq all time; Shuttle mid-day on weekday and conv bus during peak and weekends
- C24 unchanged
- C28 convert back to community shuttle during peak
- C29 unchanged
- C30 unchanged
- C38 unchanged

- 96 All day 5a-1a; 7-8min freq daytime and evening; articulated bus
- 320 reduced to every 15min
- 321 reduced to every 15min
- 394 retained

I love how they put the Surrey changes to the consultation material in every region

And I found out its weird that the 188 uses community shuttle weekday off-peak but conventional bus on Sat and Sun.. Typo!? If they have the resource to run 188 with 30min freq conventional bus on weekend, why can't they keep the hourly 177 and run both routes with shuttle

[nname]

Just realized that everything is actually online after I posted that... So I guess I'll just post the links here:

Overview
Route 2, 22
Route C29, C30, C38
Route C98, C99
Route C24
Route 211
Route C48, C49
Route 314
Route C21, C23
Route C41
Route C1, C2
Route 502, 503
Route 250, 251, 252
Route 159, 177
Route 332, 335
Route N24
Route 179, 188, 189, C28
Route 312
Route 153
Route 227, 229
Route 101, 154

Ouch for the hourly Burnaby community shuttle during peak hours...

And... I can't seems to understand what are they running on the new #22.. Seems like service reduction for the most part, but why in some area, there's less service during peak hours compared to mid-day?

And they actually sneak in a service cut for #229... The current #229 loops around the Lynn Canyon Park area when the Phibbs portion isn't running. But now that segment will become the #227 and won't run in evenings and Sunday. I guess the park segment have low ridership too?

The #503... I actually think the #511 is a better number for it since its the number used for the former Aldergrove - Willowbrook route. Maybe they just want to use the "3" so they can call the new Fraser Hwy B-Line as "93 B-Line"? Otherwise the much delayed Hastings Line would have to settle with "94 B-Line"

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

I ask you again: how is a rider to determine whether he is boarding an express bus or a limited stop bus if not by the brand?

In the case of the #555, boarding at a Transit Exchange beside the region's only highway and seeing the destination sign say: "555 Braid/Lougheed Stn Express" would probably be a pretty good indicator.

In this case, it could be argued both ways:
The #555 dilutes the B-Line brand due to being different enough to confuse or the #555 strengthens the B-Line brand as a Fast Frequent Bus.

Me, I think it should just be a regular bus and have "Express" on its destination sign, but that's just me.

The #97, it could be argued, dilutes it as well, but that's a different issue.

[xd_1771]

So the 177 cancellation is explained by the closure of Riverview Hospital. That solves that! o_O

The #503... I actually think the #511 is a better number for it since its the number used for the former Aldergrove - Willowbrook route. Maybe they just want to use the "3" so they can call the new Fraser Hwy B-Line as "93 B-Line"? Otherwise the much delayed Hastings Line would have to settle with "94 B-Line"

I'm pretty sure the system is new B-Lines in order of introduction count downwards from 99. So 99, 98, 97, 96..... 95, 94, 93....

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by nname

PS. The 177 have this proposed along its route, yet it will still be discontinued.

Realistically, the Fraser Mills community is at LEAST 5 years away from reality... and the #159, which is planned to run more frequently and longer hours would serve this area. The #177 would be a direct connection to Coquitlam Centre, but by the time this community is built out, a bus to Lougheed Mall would be more useful (transfer to Evergreen Line)

[go_leafs_go02]

The 502 / 503 conversion should just have been introduced in as a B-Line instead. So, if you live in Langley Centre, you can get whisked right over to Surrey Central, but if you live in east Surrey, like East Clayton, or whatever, you are forced to take the 502, which will have a likely service reduction due to the 503, and it's still all local bus service all the way to Surrey Central.

Just make it a B-Line from Surrey Central to Langley Centre, with the 502 running local all the way to Aldergrove on a reduced schedule.

[xd_1771]

Originally Posted by go_leafs_go02

The 502 / 503 conversion should just have been introduced in as a B-Line instead. So, if you live in Langley Centre, you can get whisked right over to Surrey Central, but if you live in east Surrey, like East Clayton, or whatever, you are forced to take the 502, which will have a likely service reduction due to the 503, and it's still all local bus service all the way to Surrey Central.

Just make it a B-Line from Surrey Central to Langley Centre, with the 502 running local all the way to Aldergrove on a reduced schedule.

Fraser Highway can't take a B-Line branding yet. This has to do with bus bay lengths and inability to cater so far to articulated buses.

There won't be any service reductions on 502, in case you read the document. There'll be an increase in the weekday AM peak.
And I think limited service hours might have more to do with why this setup has been chosen for now. 503 will feature the same low frequencies as 502 to Aldergrove, just that it's a more optimized express service. What difference to Clayton would that make I'd say not much. It is drop off only west of Langley Ctr and pick up only east of Surrey Central.

This'll certainly make a difference to Fleetwood 502 riders, where most of the pass-ups are taking place. 502 is not having capacity problems east of Fleetwood - so if you split the markets, you're definitely easing some of the load.

[Spork]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

I ask you again: how is a rider to determine whether he is boarding an express bus or a limited stop bus if not by the brand?

Originally Posted by Spork

A line is express by the very nature that it is limited stop. One is a benefit, the other is a technical descriptor.

Same thing.

[nname]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

Realistically, the Fraser Mills community is at LEAST 5 years away from reality... and the #159, which is planned to run more frequently and longer hours would serve this area. The #177 would be a direct connection to Coquitlam Centre, but by the time this community is built out, a bus to Lougheed Mall would be more useful (transfer to Evergreen Line)

But the problem is still... what about the people who want to go from Coquitlam Station to the United Blvd area? They didn't even mention this in the trade-off section...

And if you look at the document, the hours for 159 stay essentially the same, the "more frequent" is actually just 1 more bus in the evening hours to match the 177 frequency.