Metro Vancouver Transit Discussion

[go_leafs_go02]

Originally Posted by nname

Not too sure about that though... Since I can no longer find that entry in the database on Dec 3 as it seems to be disabled temporary.. (or maybe they just do that to stop people from peeking!?)

And seems like TransLink is really late in producing the December pdf schedule. The route map was already online for 2 weeks but the system map and schedule is still not uploaded yet (they usually upload it about 1 month before the service change).

On the other hand, the 96 (King George B-Line) is now back into the database.. although there's not yet a date associated with the entry... So probably a lunch date of Apr or June 2013 for that route?

http://www.forumvancouver.com/threads/new-bus-route-555-over-port-mann-bridge-launches-dec-3.3304/

http://memebee.com/vancouver/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=40886&view=unread

Nothing verified, but they both point to December 3.

Are any other December sheet change schedules online? The "Service Changes" page still points back to September.

[nname]

Originally Posted by go_leafs_go02

http://www.forumvancouver.com/threads/new-bus-route-555-over-port-mann-bridge-launches-dec-3.3304/

http://memebee.com/vancouver/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=40886&view=unread

Nothing verified, but they both point to December 3.

Are any other December sheet change schedules online? The "Service Changes" page still points back to September.

This is the information I got:

- 002: Schedule adjustment
- 136: Service reduced to 30min all day (was 20min peak)
- 153, 157: Weekend conversion to community shuttle
- 340: Convert from Highway coach back to regular bus
- 410: Weekday mid-day service improve to every 10min (was 12min)
- 502: Late night service improvement
- C40: Discontinue mid-day service (between 9am to 3pm)
- N10: Last two trips terminate at Marpole instead of downtown
- Routes redirected to new Carvolth Exchange: 388, 501, 509, 590, 595, C62
- Temporary shuttle between Carvolth Exchange and Walnut Grove Park and Ride
- Bus bay assignment change: Braid, Carvolth, Walnut Grove P&R

And yes, there's no 555 on the list.. I don't know if this is just an oversight or is the service not starting on the same day as the rest of the changes.

[go_leafs_go02]

Originally Posted by nname

This is the information I got:

- 002: Schedule adjustment
- 136: Service reduced to 30min all day (was 20min peak)
- 153, 157: Weekend conversion to community shuttle
- 340: Convert from Highway coach back to regular bus
- 410: Weekday mid-day service improve to every 10min (was 12min)
- 502: Late night service improvement
- C40: Discontinue mid-day service (between 9am to 3pm)
- N10: Last two trips terminate at Marpole instead of downtown
- Routes redirected to new Carvolth Exchange: 388, 501, 509, 590, 595, C62
- Temporary shuttle between Carvolth Exchange and Walnut Grove Park and Ride
- Bus bay assignment change: Braid, Carvolth, Walnut Grove P&R

And yes, there's no 555 on the list.. I don't know if this is just an oversight or is the service not starting on the same day as the rest of the changes.

The Surrey Leader also has a note about RapidBus being launched in December. Although they say it starts on December 1 (Saturday when the bridge opens fully to 8 lanes.

http://www.surreyleader.com/news/179327171.html

And just now, the 555 shows up under the "Select Bus Route" here: http://tripplanning.translink.ca/hiwire?.a=iScheduleLookup

[Spork]

Originally Posted by go_leafs_go02

The Surrey Leader also has a note about RapidBus being launched in December. Although they say it starts on December 1 (Saturday when the bridge opens fully to 8 lanes.

It's possible. I'm sure that Translink wouldn't object to a 2 day exception for a nice Christie Clark photo-op.

[nname]

Originally Posted by go_leafs_go02

The Surrey Leader also has a note about RapidBus being launched in December. Although they say it starts on December 1 (Saturday when the bridge opens fully to 8 lanes.

http://www.surreyleader.com/news/179327171.html

And just now, the 555 shows up under the "Select Bus Route" here: http://tripplanning.translink.ca/hiwire?.a=iScheduleLookup

Now it shows up in the database... and the schedule is uploaded too:
http://infomaps.translink.ca/Public_Timetables/85/tt555.pdf

Seems like that's the only Dec schedule available at this moment..

Originally Posted by Spork

It's possible. I'm sure that Translink wouldn't object to a 2 day exception for a nice Christie Clark photo-op.

Highly doubt this though.. The driver doing the route still have other job to do before Dec. 3rd. Plus the highway coaches probably still doing work somewhere in Richmond, before they got transferred to Poco for the service...


EDIT: Scratch that... it is launching on Dec 1st with service extended to Walnut Grove P&R on the 1st and 2nd only (I guess this is the temporary shuttle?)

[go_leafs_go02]

Not terrible scheduling for weekdays:

10 min headways from 5 AM to 10 AM
30 min headways from 10 AM to 3 PM
10 min headways from 3 PM to 6:30 PM
30 min headways from 6:30 PM to 10:00 PM.

I do think they'll have trouble keeping the 22 min travel time, especially from the Cape Horn onto Brunette.

[xd_1771]

What's unusual is that there does not appear to be any connection to Guildford Routes? I was thinking there would have to be some sort of stop at the far-side of the 156th St HOV ramps (with 337 connection) for those riders... no Surrey connection for the RapidBus is immediately a huge weakness. I thought this was a promise earlier on....

[nname]

Originally Posted by go_leafs_go02

Not terrible scheduling for weekdays:

10 min headways from 5 AM to 10 AM
30 min headways from 10 AM to 3 PM
10 min headways from 3 PM to 6:30 PM
30 min headways from 6:30 PM to 10:00 PM.

I do think they'll have trouble keeping the 22 min travel time, especially from the Cape Horn onto Brunette.

The segment have a 15min travel time according to Google, so there are still 7 minutes to spare.

Anyways, the 10min peak headway at startup is the best one TransLink had offered for a new bus route* since its inception in 2001. The next best would be the two new Vancouver routes (33, 84), which was launched at 15min headway, but without evening and weekend service.

*New bus route = entirely new routing, not those conversion to B-Line or shuttle changes. And by bus route, it also doesn't include Canada Line...

I always wonder if this route require that much service to begin with, or should they lunch with 15-20min headway and ramp up service as demand grows, just like all other routes. I'm thinking they are probably just trying to satisfy the province's demand for "a new rapid bus service running every 10 minutes". Just like how they are going to satisfy the demand of running Evergreen train every 3min at startup too...

Originally Posted by xd_1771

What's unusual is that there does not appear to be any connection to Guildford Routes? I'm thinking there has to be some sort of stop at the 156th St HOV ramps (with 337 connection) for those riders... no Surrey connection for the RapidBus is immediately a huge weakness.

Well, there's the 501, 509, and 590... If people want to go to Guildford, they would probably prefer taking those instead of waiting in the middle of a freeway for a connection...

[xd_1771]

I was actually speaking of connections for Surrey riders over the Port Mann Bridge. I'm going to survey the 156th St HOV ramp intersection to see if a bus stop could be placed at its far end to give the RapidBus a Surrey connection. This stop should add little if anything to the trip time but make a huge difference for more communities.

Come to think of it, when you consider that 337 shuttles into Surrey Central Station (for most of the day) operate every 30 minutes, it could provide a well-timed connection for travellers from west, in addition to those from Fraser Heights.

The province would be breaking a promise without this stop as there was supposed to be a connection in Guildford:

[nname]

Originally Posted by xd_1771

I was actually speaking of connections for Surrey riders over the Port Mann Bridge. I'm going to survey the 156th St HOV ramp intersection to see if a bus stop could be placed at its far end to give the RapidBus a Surrey connection. This stop should add little if anything to the trip time but make a huge difference for more communities.

Come to think of it, when you consider that 337 shuttles into Surrey Central Station (for most of the day) operate every 30 minutes, it could provide a well-timed connection for travellers from west, in addition to those from Fraser Heights.

I doubt there's going to be much of a saving though if a transfer is involved, as that stop is so far out of the way for most people unless their destination is around Fraser Heights. For most people who take the rapid bus, they would be transferring from the Millennium Line. Wouldn't it better for the people to take the train for 2 more stops, transfer to the Expo Line to Surrey Central, where there is far more connection to virtually anywhere?

And not sure if I want to say this, but don't count on the 337. Looking at the current optimization, I highly doubt TransLink would keep the 337 in its current form much longer. Look the 177/179/189 that's getting cancelled, the C40 that received a 80% reduction in service within 5 months, the 595 where the route got cut in half, or the C1/C2/C25/C26 that have its frequency halved. All these routes have far better cost/ride (cost recovery) figure than the 337. At the current rate, I expect TransLink would do something to that route pretty soon...

[go_leafs_go02]

I've actually thought that because the 96 B-Line is going to end at Guildford, you could extend it up 156 Street to Highway 1 to have a connection between the B-Line and the RapidBus. It's about an extra 1.4 km.

Essentially if you live in Surrey and want to go to Coquitlam, you need to go all the way into Langley to board the 555, or take the Expo line to New West....

[nname]

Originally Posted by go_leafs_go02

I've actually thought that because the 96 B-Line is going to end at Guildford, you could extend it up 156 Street to Highway 1 to have a connection between the B-Line and the RapidBus. It's about an extra 1.4 km.

Essentially if you live in Surrey and want to go to Coquitlam, you need to go all the way into Langley to board the 555, or take the Expo line to New West....

Ideally there should be a separate route going straight from Guildford to Coquitlam via 152nd, Hwy 1, and turn onto Lougheed at Cape Horn. Going from Guildford to the highway interchange and back to Guildford means ~10min of backtracking. Going from Cape Horn to Braid back to Cape Horn on the 169 adds another 15min. So there's a total of 25min of backtracking on a trip that can be done in 15min (or 11min by car).

And don't think its just a little 1.4km of extension that doesn't require much resource. This extension would need 70~80 weekly hours to run. Most of the optimizations we were talking about here (other than the cancellation of 177) actually yield less than 70 hours of saving. If they got that much spare resource lying around, I would rather see them extending the B-Line in the Newton end, or extend all weekday 375 trips to Coquitlam, which requires 78 weekly hours assuming each one-way extension is 17min in length.

[xd_1771]

I wouldn't count on a reduction of the 337's frequency any time soon.

When you look at the service... TransLink constantly has opportunities to make the 337 and pretty much every Central-Guildford route more cost-effective by encouraging the offloading of some 320/501 riders (or pass-ups) that currently might refuse to passengers to Guildford on the basis that "this is an express bus and we don't stop at Guildford" (I've heard this from their drivers far too many times actually) and making people more aware of what the 337 is through improved signage and mapping. Some 2000 pass-ups occur every day on 104th Ave on the 320 - and they're mostly in the westbound direction just west of Guildford Exchange or eastbound just past Surrey Central. These pass-ups are full buses just filled with through riders that board at Surrey Central and get off at Guildford/vice-versa, in addition to local 104th Ave riders not effectively being served. These through riders could be 337 riders - and this would be better as they would not only get faster express trips, but they would also help 104th Ave riders by opening up room on the busier 320. And they'd help in getting people to be actually on-board the 320 during the PM peak. Surrey Central bay 12 (until the recent rearrangements, this was the 320 only) had the single highest pass-up rate of all bus stops in Surrey. Heck, it wouldn't just help 320 Fleetwood and Guildford riders; it'd help 320 Langley Ctr. and Cloverdale riders, who might otherwise get passed-up in favour of other 320 travellers to closer destinations (and wait much longer waits for that next bus), to encourage more 337 ridership.

What else? A 4-story apartment being proposed at the SE corner 104th & 156th, more redevelopments long-proposed on the SW corner, and several new higher-density developments north of 104th @ 154th which will probably attract more than a few new 337 riders. Enrollment is also increasing at FHSS as it is apparently now one of the top ranking high schools in Surrey and is attracting students (I know several who moved this year) and is getting an expansion, which has probably had a positive effect on ridership since.

And let's think for a moment: wouldn't the upcoming addition of tolls on the Fraser Heights-accessible Port Mann Bridge initiate more switch onto transit and thus the 337?

The Fraser Heights Community Association wouldn't be too happy with such an inefficient reduction in this service, rather groundlessly expensing and insulting the community in the wake of another restriction in mobility as a result of PMB tolling.

I say bring on the continued 15-minute service. This route is ready for some growth!

[nname]

Well, the demand and travel pattern will be different after the planned service change. The new 555 is going to draw some riders away from the 501/590. The 96 B-Line will add service to 104th and draw riders away from the 320. So will there be any pass-up along the route is yet to be seen. The current performance for the 337 is quite bad. In fact, when ranking all non-night bus routes according to cost/boarding, the 337 comes out to be the 5th worst route in the region.

Well, here's the list for the top 30 routes in term of worst performance:

Route	$/Ride	Fate
-----	------	----
C99	11.15	discontinued, portion without replacement
606	7.70
C94	7.32	new route from 2009
C88	6.76
337	5.69
C84	5.29
C87	5.09
595	5.09	portion discontinued
C48	5.05	portion discontinued without replacement
C89	4.81
603	4.46
351	4.46	service allocation within route
C22	4.37	discontinued, portion without replacement
C49	4.31	portion discontinued without replacement
190	4.17	service cut and reallocated to 160
177	4.17	discontinued, portion without replacement
C43	4.10	service cut
791	4.07	ridership gain from service cut for 177
C9	4.03	route created from downsizing 112
C25	3.98	service cut
C70	3.96
C26	3.90	service cut
405	3.85	service reallocation within route
C64	3.77
C41	3.76	service allocation within route
189	3.71	discontinued
608	3.66
640	3.65	service reallocation within route
C90	3.64	discontinued without replacement
352	3.62

You see that they've made changes to every NoF and Richmond route on that list except the C94, which is still relatively new. The optimization actually going down up to the 100th route on the list, and less than 10 NoF routes were left unchanged. Would you think they'll left the 337 as-is when they start doing the optimization SoF?

Here are the 5 possible outcomes I can think of:
1. Frequency reduction
2. Conversion of midday and late night service back to shuttle
3. Discontinue express to Surrey Central and terminate at Guildford, after B-Line
4. Take over some of the short-turned 320 and doing local service on 104th.
5. Merge with a rerouted 501

PS. The 177 have this proposed along its route, yet it will still be discontinued.

[Millennium2002]

If necessary, deviations from the route could be added to the 169 to service Fraser Mills and Planet Ice...

The other possibility I suppose would be to turn the 177 into a community shuttle.

[huenthar]

wish they were branding the #555 as a B-line...

[Tfreder]

Thanks for that list nname

So out of the 30 routes with the worst performance that haven't received any "optimizations" yet, 7 out of 11 are in South Delta (606, C88, C84, C87, C89, 603, 608). When translink finally decides to start optimizing routes there, it's going to be a complete massacre. If Lois Jackson is currently complaining about the lack of service in South Delta, I can't wait to hear her reaction once translink is done "optimizing" those routes..

Originally Posted by huenthar

wish they were branding the #555 as a B-line...

What's wrong with the Rapid Bus branding?

[Spork]

Originally Posted by Tfreder

Thanks for that list nname

What's wrong with the Rapid Bus branding?

Inconsistency. How is it any different from a B-Line, which is currently known as frequent express service.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Spork

Inconsistency. How is it any different from a B-Line, which is currently known as frequent express service.

B-Lines, as I understand them, are limited stop services. They stop only at transfer points. I assume the RapidBus is a direct point-to-point service with no intermediate stops at all.

[Spork]

Makes sense from a technical perspective, but from a branding perspective, I don't think that introducing a new name is advantageous at all. I feel as though "B-Line" represents limited stop (in any form), and for the rider, should indicate that they should investigate which stop they are getting on and off at to make sure that it exists.