stal̕əw̓asəm (Riverview) Bridge (Pattullo Bridge Replacement) | U/C

[GeeCee]

Originally Posted by The_Henry_Man

Is there even room for an additional counter-flow lane on the Patullo?

There is no room for a counterflow lane - if they do implement a counterflow system, it would reduce the bridge to three lanes total since the needed seismic upgrades would reduce the width available.

[red-paladin]

Hopefully the actual experts will declare that it would be too financially risky to try to rebuild the bridge and may not be possible within a reasonable timeframe and budget. If the Port Mann failed that test, then I don't see how the older orange death drap can possibly pass it.

[tybuilding]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

If they honestly piss away 150 million on putting lipstick on this pig just have another horrid counter flow system (that in the end never worked for the Pitt River) I will be disgusted with Translink's lack of balls.

The Lions Gate bridge carries 60-70,000 vehicles with a 3 lane counter flow system and the Patullo bridge carries 67,500 vehicles per day. With Highway 1 loosing its congestion with 10 lanes instead of 5 vehicles can go over there to avoid congestion.

Food for thought:

http://pricetags.wordpress.com/2012/11/15/pattullo-versus-pedal-guess-which-one-gets-cut/



Does this make sense that cycling has funding cut?

[officedweller]

Huh? - doesn't that chart say:
67,700 vehicles per day used the Patullo Bridge;
84,3000 total cycling trips per day throughout Metro Vancouver?

What kind of comparison is that?

[Zassk]

Originally Posted by tybuilding

Does this make sense that cycling has funding cut?

I'm not sure what kind of response you expect to that comparison.

It would take a hell of a lot of bicycles to get anyone across the Fraser River without getting wet (although 106,000 of them might be enough).

Conversely, you could probably pay for about 106,000 hours of swimming lessons with $3 million per year, and then everyone could just get themselves across the river without bicycles or bridges...

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by officedweller

What kind of comparison is that?

Well, it compares money spent on the Patullo bridge to the people who use it vs. money spent on cycling to the people who use it. What's the problem with that? Is it just that the cyclists are spread out over a larger area? If that's your objection, it's misplaced because the comparison is based on cost per user, not on cost per square mile or cost per linear mile.

I can see an argument based on the fact that the bridge expenditure being talked about would provide a benefit that lasts for many decades, but I think that's probably true of most of the money spent on bike infrastructure, too.

[Smooth]

I know those stats relate to the Patullo Bridge but could we keep all "bicycle infrastructure is underfunded" talk to the appropriate thread?

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

Well, it compares money spent on the Patullo bridge to the people who use it vs. money spent on cycling to the people who use it. What's the problem with that? Is it just that the cyclists are spread out over a larger area? If that's your objection, it's misplaced because the comparison is based on cost per user, not on cost per square mile or cost per linear mile.

I can see an argument based on the fact that the bridge expenditure being talked about would provide a benefit that lasts for many decades, but I think that's probably true of most of the money spent on bike infrastructure, too.

The geographic dispersion of the people factors in a lot in a comparison.
Is it worthwhile throwing money out the door to try to "equalize" spending per person when that expenditure isn't put to good use?

Just look at that bridge to nowhere in Alaska.

I just think that money should be spent project by project not on some vague per capita basis.

Anyways - too far off topic....

[nname]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

Well, it compares money spent on the Patullo bridge to the people who use it vs. money spent on cycling to the people who use it.

The whole concept of "trip" is quite misleading...

If you drive to/from work, you created 2 auto trip (work). At noon, you walk from your office to get lunch, then you add 2 walking trip (dining). After dinner, you bike with your child to the nearest park, then you add 2 more cycling trips (recreation). If you do this everyday, then you have 2 driving trips, 2 walking trips, and 2 cycling trips. You'd think driving is your predominate mode of travel, but in fact, your mode share is 33% driving, 33% cycling, and 33% walking.

Do you think it would be fair to compare the 2 driving trips with the 2 cycling trips? Well, unless you say your nearest park is on the other side of Fraser River...

[Stingray2004]

Originally Posted by GeeCee

There is no room for a counterflow lane - if they do implement a counterflow system, it would reduce the bridge to three lanes total since the needed seismic upgrades would reduce the width available.

I believe that you misunderstood my point. The existing narrow 4-lane cross-section would be reduced to a wider 3-lane cross-section with the centre-lane acting as the counterflow lane.

Think Lions Gate Bridge/Stanley Park Causeway.

Again, this likely option will need to be revisited within 15 years with another 6-lane replacement. At the end of the day, it will be all about short-term politics. It is what it is unfortunately. I've seen this movie played out several times before.

In that vein, former moderate NDP premier Mike Harcourt's then Transportation minister Art Charbonneau from Hansard, Tuesday, June 15, 1993:

[Volume 11, Number 4, Page 7211]

[NDP MoTH Minister] Hon. A. Charbonneau: The member has really hit the goldmine on this one. The congestion, the safety aspects and the delays coming out of the northeast suburbs onto the Trans-Canada are severe, and part of that is the connection from the Mary Hill bypass onto 401.

There is no band-aid solution possible. The 401 should be expanded to six lanes plus two HOV lanes, and we need to twin the Port Mann Bridge. The Cape Horn interchange needs to be reworked in order to facilitate that and the more direct connections onto the Mary Hill bypass.

Of course, a good chunk of the NDP hard-core enviro base eventually balked at this proposition and we wound up with a Hwy 1 HOV lane and PMB seismic upgrades as well as an EB PMB HOV lane completed in early 2001.

6 years later the funds expended were obviously redundant as the new PMB/Hwy 1 Project came to fruition.

[huenthar]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

Well, it compares money spent on the Patullo bridge to the people who use it vs. money spent on cycling to the people who use it. What's the problem with that? Is it just that the cyclists are spread out over a larger area? If that's your objection, it's misplaced because the comparison is based on cost per user, not on cost per square mile or cost per linear mile.

I can see an argument based on the fact that the bridge expenditure being talked about would provide a benefit that lasts for many decades, but I think that's probably true of most of the money spent on bike infrastructure, too.

Cyclists mostly use roads and sidewalks, funding for which comes out of the roads budget, not the cycling budget. Cyclists also need to get across the river too, presumably they'll need a bridge to do that... Bad comparison when there is significant overlap between the things being compared...

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by huenthar

Cyclists mostly use roads and sidewalks, funding for which comes out of the roads budget, not the cycling budget. Cyclists also need to get across the river too, presumably they'll need a bridge to do that... Bad comparison when there is significant overlap between the things being compared...

Aren't the costs of the Bicycle program money that pretty much mostly went into dedicated lanes for bikes? Cars don't use bike lanes, and I'd be willing to estimate that the vast majority of new cyclists stick to roads that have dedicated lanes (or at least painted ones). That's just a guess, though.

It's an interesting comparison which does illustrate that roads are expensive per user and usually encounter little resistance. I wouldn't go as far as saying that it's one or the other, but it's interesting nonetheless.

[Stingray2004]

I just don't understand what's happening with Translink and the proposed Pattullo Bridge replacement... or now perhaps just an upgrade.

We had the various alignment options, etc. and open houses. Now this story comes out leaving me scratching my head even more.

Decision on future of Pattullo Bridge could be made by the summer

VANCOUVER/CKNW(AM980)
Alison Bailey
12/7/2012


It's been a question for years: what to do about the aging Pattullo Bridge?

In a few months, there may be an answer.

Sany Zein with Translink says they’re hoping to work towards a short list of options this winter and spring, and to reach consensus on a solution sometime around next summer.

"This is a very public and transparent process, when we have information to be shared with the public, we will be having a public consultation strategy to share with the public what we're finding."

Translink is working with the cities of New Westminster and Surrey. He says no option is off the table.

http://www.cknw.com/news/vancouver/story.aspx/story.aspx?ID=1836823

[makr3trkr]

Firstly let me say I agree that the lane closures on the Pattullo are good and well so far as they have probably saved lives.

However, it seems that if the delay at midnight to get across the bridge can be up to 20 minutes, they might consider changing the staging process, or timing.

Even just closing one lane would probably suffice to prevent cross overs (rather than both middle lanes, which might be overkill).

There was no accident on the bridge or the New Westminster side when this was taken, long after the cones were finished being set up.

The line up on McBride stretched halfway down Queen's Park.

[Mininari]

How can we take that 'decision on the bridge' seriously??? EVERY option is off the table when it comes to New westminster, save tearing down the existing bridge, removing all roads, and converting roadways to cobblestone walking paths.

But seriously...

And I was wondering about those nighttime safety closures... why would one use a tolled bridge at midnight when traffic volumes are otherwise light... oh thats right, to save time because the free alternate is completely congested. Might as well jog over to the Alex Fraser if you find yourself approaching the Pattulo after midnight...

[DKaz]

They close the lanes between 9 and 10. FYI I live in Whalley and played late night hockey in Burnaby this past year. By 12:30, 1am, there is absolutely no traffic on the roads and coming to a stop on the ramp from Columbia is more precautionary than anything. It is backed up when I drive by at about 10 but cars can slowly roll down the hill with gravity.

[makr3trkr]

Originally Posted by DKaz

They close the lanes between 9 and 10. FYI I live in Whalley and played late night hockey in Burnaby this past year. By 12:30, 1am, there is absolutely no traffic on the roads and coming to a stop on the ramp from Columbia is more precautionary than anything. It is backed up when I drive by at about 10 but cars can slowly roll down the hill with gravity.

Still took 20 minutes to get across the bridge (at midnight). There were no accidents, nothing out of the ordinary. Long after the pylon setup was finished. The line up was 1.5-2km along McBride. Could easily have walked faster from Queens Park across to Surrey without breaking a sweat. Traffic from all three SB ramps (Royal, Columbia, McBride) came to a complete stop. Could be a directional thing, as NB from Surrey was pretty good.

Likely last year it wasn't an issue, but now that the 20 free crossings are starting to run out for the Port Mann it has probably worsened. Closing only one lane rather than two lanes would probably help while still preventing crossovers. Can't imagine what it will look next year after the toll doubles.

[BCPhil]

Maybe it is becoming a problem now that the 20 free trips are running out, but I haven't noticed anything out of the ordinary in the past few months at night over the Pattullo bridge. I drive over the bridge fairly frequently at night (before and after the lane is closed), and haven't had any slow downs in the last few months. There does seem to be some extra volume, but no jams. Maybe a big event got out, like a concert or a game? Was this the day that Scott Road was closed because of the Motorbike vs Train accident? A major accident like that can have lasting effects hours after the accident is cleared.

One solution to this problem would be to have Pattullo status updates appear on the road information signs on Highway 1. Show the time it takes to get to Guildford via Pattullo and Port Mann from the Canada Way exit.

[jlenko]

I still think they should ban big trucks from the bridge... period. Then the cars could flow a little easier.

[makr3trkr]

New round of consultation next month

===============

http://www.surreyleader.com/news/201484341.html

The Port Mann Bridge was tolled on the basis the Pattullo offers a viable free alternative, but critics say that already questionable logic falls apart if both the Pattullo and the Massey Tunnel are also replaced with toll bridges.

Olewiler said a short list of options to replace the Pattullo will go out to public consultations in mid-May.

She said Surrey and New Westminster municipal reps have agreed to work together to try to find a mutually agreeable configuration of a new bridge, which New West residents fear will increase local traffic.

Olewiler said the province also needs to be part of the Pattullo discussion to deal with routing of trucks and connections to provincial highways like the South Fraser Perimeter Road and Highway 1.

Those talks with government will have to wait until after the election, she said, but added it's important to "make sure the big picture is looked at and this isn't just our little bridge in the middle of it."

===============

Seems to be implying that a direct ramp at Port Mann and no connection to SFPR might be bargaining chips