Millennium Line - Evergreen Extension | Completed

[Millennium2002]

Originally Posted by Jebby

It's sad (for Vancouver) that the "suburbs" along the evergreen line will be so much more dense than the majority of the Cambie corridor along the Canada line.

The "problem" is more of fitting the developments into existing neighbourhoods, if they do exist already.

In the case of places like Metrotown, Brentwood, and Gateway among others, the communities supported them as no one minded the loss of the grungy industrial or repair shop next door compared to the appeal of a shiny new apartment building or similar.

However, we then get to stations that haven't been touched since the line's building. The Cambie Corridor actually isn't the worst case situation: take a look at say Commercial-Broadway (partly), 22nd Street, Nanaimo and 29th Avenue. None of these have been touched an inch since the Expo Line was constructed. (Commercial-Broadway is partly because it hasn't undergone enough changes in my opinion, despite a few movements towards such...)

It's not hard to see why either: at those stations, you've got a lot of existing residents surrounding them who want to benefit from SkyTrain too and they don't see themselves moving out (money regardless) or their communities changing as a benefit towards them or their neighbours.

Of course, now we know a little better since then, and I might be dramatic / alarmist but I think the fact that the communities haven't changed has also caused crime and other riff-raff to infiltrate the older communities more than previously vs the newer ones. It wouldn't be too hard to see why either... older homes/businesses + un-upgraded streets + lack of street presence = many dark areas to linger and do "business".

Commercial-Broadway in particular is almost like becoming the suburb version of the DTES... and 29th Ave has earned a few eyebrows for the severity of the incidents (a few assaults, some sexual + one shooting) as well.

Of course, that's just my theory on the situation... maybe once the system is gated or such + the stations are rebuilt, the incidents may lessen or stop altogether. If they don't, however, it'd be a rather dirty, if not favourable, opportunity to ask for some redevelopment near them to increase the street presence sufficiently that the seedy elements feel that they have to stay out.

--

That blurb aside, I realized something while coming up with that: has there ever been a developer who has let the residents it purchased the land from stay on as the development's first new resident? I can't think of a case of that happening... although it'd be something worth trying out. I'm curious as to whether that will increase the acceptance of redeveloping existing communities by allowing older, existing residents to stay...

[WarrenC12]

^^^^

You're right on your analysis. The city has done extensive re-zoning along Cambie St, just take a drive up and down and you can see the changes in effect (starting of course with Marine Gateway and the MC2 project across the street).

Various parcels of land have been assembled along Cambie and higher density development is coming.

Give it 10 years and I think the Canada Line will have shown more development progress than the Expo Line did at the same age.

[red-paladin]

The empty lots near Nanaimo station sure are depressing. However, if the zoning isn't there and the community rejects higher density, they could stay that way forever

[SpongeG]

if you're a developer why would you pay premium land prices when they are cheaper parcels to get developed first? once those are gone we will see the older neighbourhoods start to redevelop but there is no rush at the moment

[Millennium2002]

Originally Posted by red-paladin

The empty lots near Nanaimo station sure are depressing. However, if the zoning isn't there and the community rejects higher density, they could stay that way forever

Not exactly... It just takes a city government brave enough to open up the "can of worms" and who is willing to make a strong case about how the redevelopment will help the local area and the city as a whole.

Looking at the older plans for Commercial-Broadway, Nanaimo and 29th Avenue, one can tell that the people were concerned about communities within a kilometre of the station being evicted and their homes (some of heritage value) being torn down for apartments for new residents... and in that view, perhaps there's a justification (a weak one perhaps) to stall development for a few years...

If this is the case (again not proven) it may be possible still to develop a new series of Expo Line plans that takes advantage of what is already accepted on the Cambie Corridor and that proposes slightly higher densities within 500 m or less from the stations. If this can be realized, perhaps these Expo Line stations can (finally) become mini transit nodes similar to the ones already planned for King Edward and Langara stations.

Also, I don't think community and town centre plans have a predefined time that they're required to be "in-force" or expire... so yes, they can go on infinite, but you can also throw them out after a few months (and in the process drive people nuts).

[xd_1771]

That blurb aside, I realized something while coming up with that: has there ever been a developer who has let the residents it purchased the land from stay on as the development's first new resident? I can't think of a case of that happening... although it'd be something worth trying out. I'm curious as to whether that will increase the acceptance of redeveloping existing communities by allowing older, existing residents to stay...

Well, since one higher-density development can fit a lot of residents, I'm curious as to whether developers could then be encouraged to use this first development as a node to house the residents of the lot(s) next door too - so that they can be redeveloped also. It all starts with one and a chain reaction of sorts could get the ball rolling.

[huenthar]

Originally Posted by allan_kuan

That blurb aside, I realized something while coming up with that: has there ever been a developer who has let the residents it purchased the land from stay on as the development's first new resident? I can't think of a case of that happening... although it'd be something worth trying out. I'm curious as to whether that will increase the acceptance of redeveloping existing communities by allowing older, existing residents to stay...

You mean like a right of first refusal to former residents? I think it's something the NDP wants to look at. I think they do it for at least social housing projects. The Little Mountain project is doing this apparently:

http://www.vancourier.com/news/Little+Mountain+tenants+appeal+eviction+notices/7256108/story.html

[Millennium2002]

"Right of first refusal" doesn't sound like what I described...

It's more like an "offer to stay at location, but as a resident in the new development". I'm not sure how to best describe this in short form... maybe "compensation by land-residency trade" vs "compensation by cash"?

Having said that, if this were made an actual incentive to development, it may have to come with some stipulations and rights, enforced either by contract and/or by city by-law, for the original resident to avoid developers from using this as a "cheaper loophole"... e.g.

- original residents shall have the same rights as new buyers and residents, while developers have the same responsibilites for all three
- the furnishings of their apartment must be the same as those for same or similar apartments of the same or similar size, except for requested and paid-for upgrades
- all fees and rents payable must be equal or less based on estimates or percentages of what the original residents paid before at their original homes
- increases of such fees and rents shall be capped to inflation unless they move out or transfer title
- the new home should be some percentage of size of the original

Anyway, this is going rather off-topic as I'm talking about these development ideas and issues in general vs specifically for the Evergreen Line... lol... Perhaps the mods may feel like moving this into a different thread or something...

[forouhar]

Longtime lurker here, but here's some news about Cameron station.

"The Province has offered to make provision for a future Cameron Station by modifying the Evergreen Line design. The Province is prepared to cover the costs exceeding $3 million including environmental mitigation and any overruns, if Burnaby pays the initial $3 million to modify the project to make provision for this future station," said a ministry spokesperson in an emailed statement to the NewsLeader.

http://www.tricitynews.com/news/175297351.html

[Prometheus]

Originally Posted by forouhar

Longtime lurker here, but here's some news about Cameron station.

http://www.tricitynews.com/news/175297351.html

What? Lougheed Station is three blocks and a five-minute stroll from Cameron Street.

It doesn't make any sense.

[officedweller]

Thanks for posting!

That is big news. The increased cost would be to raise the guideway to be super high so that a mezzanine can fit underneath (like at Brentwood).
Given the grade on North Road in the area, expect a really really tall structure to fit a level 80 m platform (although the mezzanine only needs to fit under the "downhill" side of the station.

According to a city planning report, the money will cover the cost of building taller columns to create a flat-enough section of guideway for the station, an additional set of track switches, and a contingency for possible environmental mitigation measures.

By Friday morning, the Ministry of Transportation was on board.

"The Province has offered to make provision for a future Cameron Station by modifying the Evergreen Line design. The Province is prepared to cover the costs exceeding $3 million including environmental mitigation and any overruns, if Burnaby pays the initial $3 million to modify the project to make provision for this future station," said a ministry spokesperson in an emailed statement to the NewsLeader.

"This approach is consistent with that taken for other requested additional stations along the line, including the Lincoln Station in Coquitlam."

Corrigan was pleased Friday afternoon when the NewsLeader gave him the news.

"That's good, that's good news. And it shows a level of cooperation that hasn't occurred in every instance. So we're real pleased that we can work together to try to at least protect this as a long-term interest."

What? Corrigan pleased with ... the Province?
Also shows what negotiations can accomplish rather than protest rallies and foot stomping.

It would be unsightly, but it would be nice for the "town centre" to have more than one station. It would also help focus development on the Coquitlam side of North Road. I still think a side of road allignment would have been best, but being the municipal boundary, neither side wanted to bear the overshadowing of the guideway.

[nname]

Originally Posted by Prometheus

What? Lougheed Station is three blocks and a five-minute stroll from Cameron Street.

It doesn't make any sense.

Lougheed - 800m - Cameron - 1100m - Burquitlam

Gilmore - 800m - Brentwood - 1500m - Holdom

Patterson - 700m - Metrotown - 1200m - Royal Oak

New Westminster - 600m - Columbia

Gateway - 1100m - Surrey Central - 800m - King George

Coquitlam Central - 900m - Lincoln - 600m - Douglas

Aberdeen - 1000m - Lansdowne - 800m - Brighouse

Olympic Village - 500m - Broadway-City Hall - 1500m - King Edward

Renfrew - 800m - Rupert

Certainly on the low-side, but nothing too outrageous...

[red-paladin]

I'm glad for any provision for future stations, even if they turn out to never be used, like Boundary. It shouldn't have been left this long, but at least it will be done. As for the unsightliness, In the future we'll see Brentwood's concourse connected to the new Brentwood development on one size, and a future development on the other side. We could eventually see the same thing here, if that part of Burquitlam ever redevelops that much.

[Prometheus]

Are all the those residential buildings on the Coquitlam side of North Road around Cameron condos or rental buildings with single owners? If the former, then it could be forever before any redevelopment takes place on that side of the road.

[dleung]

Richmond increasingly seems shafted compared to these far-less-urban corridors, with almost all its stations horribly-placed mid-block as opposed to near a relevant intersection, all for the sake of reducing Brighouse and Westminster to one already-overcrowded station.

[queetz@home]

Originally Posted by officedweller

What? Corrigan pleased with ... the Province?

I knew it! I f-ing knew it! All this news about the Evergreen Line happening the past few weeks is all just a dream....right? Or was that a wormhole to another dimension that I passed through the other day????

Kidding aside....yeah, I have to agree. This is good news, and I'm glad we have a Transport Minister that is willing to listen to municipal leaders, even if they don't agree in terms of political views. And it does show compromise and negotiation does win the day no matter how contentious a subject matter is.

[nname]

Originally Posted by dleung

Richmond increasingly seems shafted compared to these far-less-urban corridors, with almost all its stations horribly-placed mid-block as opposed to near a relevant intersection, all for the sake of reducing Brighouse and Westminster to one already-overcrowded station.

How is No. 3 Road, at least the section north of Westminster Hwy, far more urban than the North Road corridor? When the line opened, there's nothing more than large malls, strip malls, big parking lots, industrial area, and empty lands.

And from my list, the Richmond section actually have closer station spacing than North Road...

[SpongeG]

cameron is a good station location, it seems unneccesary perhaps but there are many people that it will serve

[BodomReaper]

Originally Posted by Prometheus

Are all the those residential buildings on the Coquitlam side of North Road around Cameron condos or rental buildings with single owners? If the former, then it could be forever before any redevelopment takes place on that side of the road.

Funny you ask that, I used to work in the strip mall at North Road and Cameron, so on a lunch break I went on a mission to determine exactly that...

Of the 6 low-rise buildings between Austin and Foster on North Road, 5 of them are condo buildings. However everything north of Foster is rental, and a lot of it has already been snapped up by developers (including Bosa/BlueSky).

It's also worth noting that most of the single family homes in the surrounding area (at least 1-3 blocks deep from North Rd.) are zoned for mid/high densities, and there was a council discussion a few months ago where the main concern was that developers who had already assembled parcels of single family homes before the OCP was passed (thus increasing values) would have less incentive to go for maximum densities, thereby under-utilizing the land. Meanwhile the City of Vancouver just boldly declared that arterials should probably have multi-story buildings.

[The_Henry_Man]

Originally Posted by dleung

Richmond increasingly seems shafted compared to these far-less-urban corridors, with almost all its stations horribly-placed mid-block as opposed to near a relevant intersection, all for the sake of reducing Brighouse and Westminster to one already-overcrowded station.

Actually I do like the location of Richmond-Brighouse station. It makes Richmond's biggest transit hub much more central. It certainly encourages a lot more development in one central area. However, how the owners of Richmond Centre didn't plan for a pedestrian bridge to connect RC and the skytrain station is totally beyond me, as traffic jam on No.3 Rd between Cook and Saba is just horrible. And I still don't know why Translink still hasn't taken advantage of building a bus loop at the empty land behind the station, instead of just lining the buses on the streets, and increasing unnecessary congestion.

When you get off the train at Richmond-Brighouse station especially during afternoon rush hours, it REALLY feels like you're at one of those HK MTR stations on the HK island side. It's quite unbelievable.