Winnipeg Construction

[chrisallard5454]

Originally Posted by jmt18325

It's not the kind of area. I don't know what some of you expect, really.

And why isn't it that kind of area? That is the argument for everywhere in this city. "Oh, that development would never work there because it just doesn't belong there"... Why? Because it isn't a conventional big box development surrounded by a sea of parking... Give me a break.

And what exactly is it that I am expecting? For this city and its developers to stop providing the same old tired excuses that Winnipeg "just isn't the market... Just doesn't have the economic support...Just doesn't have the population... Just doesn't have the right mindset..." to actually develop in line with every other city in the twenty first century. I am not OK with status quo developments being handed over to the cheapest bidder.
Polo Park is probably the city's second biggest draw after The Forks, and we are OK with surrounding it with more big box developments normally found in suburban neighbourhoods, or small towns. Come on, if this was some town of 50 000 people I could understand how that mentality would be fine, but Winnipeg is a City, more so a Metropolis. It is time the people running it realized that fact as well. So much potential is lost, because of a big box store that could literally go anywhere on the peripheries of the city.
I am not against a new Super-Centre. I am just against it going there. Much like Shindico's office complex next to the Mall. I feel like it is wasted opportunity similar to what could have happened at Parcel 4. I have a vision of what could happen in this city, and it is constantly being pushed aside by what is beginning to remind me of a large Woodstock, ON.

[jmt18325]

The area is an ugly industrial and commercial hub. The target, as designed, seems like it fits perfectly with what is already there. What you're asking for is out of sorts with the area. I'm okay with putting in more big box developments because those things have their place in cities, and the area surrounding Polo Park (and PP itself) is that place.

Polo Park is not the down town. Not even close.

[Passionate Pegger]

My favourite excuse for why these types of developments are suited for areas like Polo Park and why high density, mixed-use infill developments don't work is because Winnipeg is a "car city". Well of course it is and it always will be if we don't invest in public transit and continually allow auto centric developments like this to occur.

[Biff]

They certainly put a lot of big names on the stores in there - Crate & Barrel, Empire Theatres, Whole Foods. Looks neat if they can make it happen. Good to have them back in the CFL though.

[dpenner]

Originally Posted by chrisallard5454

And why isn't it that kind of area? That is the argument for everywhere in this city. "Oh, that development would never work there because it just doesn't belong there"... Why? Because it isn't a conventional big box development surrounded by a sea of parking... Give me a break.

And what exactly is it that I am expecting? For this city and its developers to stop providing the same old tired excuses that Winnipeg "just isn't the market... Just doesn't have the economic support...Just doesn't have the population... Just doesn't have the right mindset..." to actually develop in line with every other city in the twenty first century. I am not OK with status quo developments being handed over to the cheapest bidder.
Polo Park is probably the city's second biggest draw after The Forks, and we are OK with surrounding it with more big box developments normally found in suburban neighbourhoods, or small towns. Come on, if this was some town of 50 000 people I could understand how that mentality would be fine, but Winnipeg is a City, more so a Metropolis. It is time the people running it realized that fact as well. So much potential is lost, because of a big box store that could literally go anywhere on the peripheries of the city.
I am not against a new Super-Centre. I am just against it going there. Much like Shindico's office complex next to the Mall. I feel like it is wasted opportunity similar to what could have happened at Parcel 4. I have a vision of what could happen in this city, and it is constantly being pushed aside by what is beginning to remind me of a large Woodstock, ON.

the reason this development is being built is because it is in the Old ottawa south/glebe neighbourhood where a 1300 sq feet run of the mill house will cost between 500,000-700,000$ at minimum. The area is similar to osborne village in terms of its urban fabric, but the cost of real estate in the area exceeds anything in winnipeg. I don't think a similar development would fare well at polo park as the landsdown one is going to be built in a heavily pedestrian oriented in a neighbourhood that is already firmly established for decades as a neighbourhood that promotes walkability. Polo park area is not even close to being in the same league in terms of that. Until it slowly evolves to that point it would make no sense to build a project that substantial within the framework of "build it and they will come".

[chrisallard5454]

Originally Posted by dpenner

the reason this development is being built is because it is in the Old ottawa south/glebe neighbourhood where a 1300 sq feet run of the mill house will cost between 500,000-700,000$ at minimum. The area is similar to osborne village in terms of its urban fabric, but the cost of real estate in the area exceeds anything in winnipeg. I don't think a similar development would fare well at polo park as the landsdown one is going to be built in a heavily pedestrian oriented in a neighbourhood that is already firmly established for decades as a neighbourhood that promotes walkability. Polo park area is not even close to being in the same league in terms of that. Until it slowly evolves to that point it would make no sense to build a project that substantial within the framework of "build it and they will come".

And how does it slowly evolve then, if the criteria for any development is and always will be cars, cars, cars and more cars. Seriously people say nothing is going to change until the city/developers do something to make it change and what is their answer? A development that belongs in a town of 30-50 000 - Or in a suburb.

You guys are coming up with the same excuses, but why is it Winnipeg is the only city with developments like this, where they are. In other cities stuff like this is left for the suburbs.

Polo Park has taken a step backwards with this development, not a step in the right direction. Transit isn't even integrated into this development a little bit. You guys sound like the majority of the people out there..."what more development...But where will our cars go". I understand that cars are a thing here, but it is so (I can't even think of a word negative enough) that cars are the first priority in every development that this city has. It should be transit first, Active Transportation, then there should be incentives for car pooling etc.

Further on that, it is extremely sad that our only source of transit friendly infrastructure (diamond lanes) are parking friendly for 22 hours out of the day.

Look at our developments. Woodrow Place (which isn't going through anyways) - First consideration; Car.
-Disraile - No diamond lane.
-Every downtown development has to have a parkade (which is OK).
-WestPort or whatever passed with flying colours.
-Seasons of Tuxedo turned into a sea of parking as well.
-Our subdivisions are given free reign on how dense they build, thus the density isn't near what it should be.
Even Fort Rouge, a Transit Oriented Development is providing 1.5 parking stalls per unit.

People always use the excuse, well Winnipeg isn't this city, or it isn't that city, so it is ok that we develop with cars as our first priority. Well folks Winnipeg is still a city, and we all know what will make a healthy city, a sustainable city, and a better city. Cars are at the bottom of the list with the latter principles as the goal.

If the mentality you guys have keeps up, 20 years from now you will all still be wondering why Winnipeg falls behind other city's on so many levels.

It is so sad that Winnipeg was a Gem ahead of its time back in the day, only to turn into what it is now. One of the reasons that I love it so much here is because I see the potential. With each development like this that potential is thrown out the door.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by chrisallard5454

And how does it slowly evolve then, if the criteria for any development is and always will be cars, cars, cars and more cars. Seriously people say nothing is going to change until the city/developers do something to make it change and what is their answer? A development that belongs in a town of 30-50 000 - Or in a suburb.

You are being way too hard on the Polo Park Target development. In mid-sized cities like Winnipeg, it is not really that common for big-box retailers to open up new stores in what is essentially an urban location. It's more common to see big boxes go up in greenfield suburban locations. But if everything is built out on the fringes of the city, that only induces people to live on the fringes of the city themselves. Putting this kind of amenity in between St. James and the West End will make those neighbourhoods slightly more appealing and perhaps give people one less reason to move out to a new subdivision on the edge of town.

The Polo Park area has changed dramatically over my lifetime from a humdrum light industrial district with a mall and sports complex in the middle to a major shopping destination. It is becoming more dense and this stadium site development will bring even more density to the area. It may not be the exact kind of density you prefer, but it's density nonetheless. Even if a Target store isn't anyone's idea of a dream use for the stadium site, it's still far better than if Target ignored Polo Park and built a new location out on McGillivray somewhere.

[chrisallard5454]

Originally Posted by esquire

You are being way too hard on the Polo Park Target development. In mid-sized cities like Winnipeg, it is not really that common for big-box retailers to open up new stores in what is essentially an urban location. It's more common to see big boxes go up in greenfield suburban locations. But if everything is built out on the fringes of the city, that only induces people to live on the fringes of the city themselves. Putting this kind of amenity in between St. James and the West End will make those neighbourhoods slightly more appealing and perhaps give people one less reason to move out to a new subdivision on the edge of town.

The Polo Park area has changed dramatically over my lifetime from a humdrum light industrial district with a mall and sports complex in the middle to a major shopping destination. It is becoming more dense and this stadium site development will bring even more density to the area. It may not be the exact kind of density you prefer, but it's density nonetheless. Even if a Target store isn't anyone's idea of a dream use for the stadium site, it's still far better than if Target ignored Polo Park and built a new location out on McGillivray somewhere.

Good post. I guess there is saving grace in that asphalt can always turn into something else one day. Thanks esquire, you saved me from boiling over.

[CoryB]

First, Westport Festival is a hugely positive development in terms of transit service as it will see an extension of service almost a full mile further to the west. There is also a possibility that eventually the Westport Festival site will be a park and ride location for people commuting to the city from the west.

As for Target, to say they have selected Polo Park over a site on McGillivray is a lead misleading. I would be shocked to not see a Super Target in Seasons of Tuxedo or somewhere else in the Kenaston shopping region, much like Walmart operates out of both regions.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by chrisallard5454

Good post. I guess there is saving grace in that asphalt can always turn into something else one day. Thanks esquire, you saved me from boiling over.

You're welcome

And you raised a good point in your response. When you consider the relatively short lifespan of a typical big box store, it is very much a possibility that when the time comes to demolish Target, a bigger, denser and more urban development could replace it. So in some ways this development could be perceived as a form of land banking for the not so distant future.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by CoryB

First, Westport Festival is a hugely positive development in terms of transit service as it will see an extension of service almost a full mile further to the west. There is also a possibility that eventually the Westport Festival site will be a park and ride location for people commuting to the city from the west.

As for Target, to say they have selected Polo Park over a site on McGillivray is a lead misleading. I would be shocked to not see a Super Target in Seasons of Tuxedo or somewhere else in the Kenaston shopping region, much like Walmart operates out of both regions.

Westport to me is an example of an egregious form of development. It's the sort of thing that encourages new suburban subdivisions to spring up and gobble up more farmland instead of increasing urban density. I can guarantee you that almost everyone who ends up living within proximity to the extended transit service will not use the extended transit service - the bus in that area will be the domain of junior high kids, a few seniors and the odd person who for whatever reason cannot drive. In other words, virtually no one will ever choose to live in that area because of the transit service.

And yes, Target will inevitably go up in greenfield power centres. But the fact that they are putting a store in an urban area means that the people who live in the surrounding neighbourhoods have this amenity at their doorstep too. In other words, when it comes to Target stores, the score is Inner City 1, Suburbs 1.

I know people love to hate the mess that Polo Park has become, but it would be worse in my view if the only big retail hubs were clustered on the outer edges of the city. That would provide a huge disincentive to living in urban areas.

[dpenner]

Originally Posted by chrisallard5454

And how does it slowly evolve then, if the criteria for any development is and always will be cars, cars, cars and more cars. Seriously people say nothing is going to change until the city/developers do something to make it change and what is their answer? A development that belongs in a town of 30-50 000 - Or in a suburb.

You guys are coming up with the same excuses, but why is it Winnipeg is the only city with developments like this, where they are. In other cities stuff like this is left for the suburbs.

Polo Park has taken a step backwards with this development, not a step in the right direction. Transit isn't even integrated into this development a little bit. You guys sound like the majority of the people out there..."what more development...But where will our cars go". I understand that cars are a thing here, but it is so (I can't even think of a word negative enough) that cars are the first priority in every development that this city has. It should be transit first, Active Transportation, then there should be incentives for car pooling etc.

Further on that, it is extremely sad that our only source of transit friendly infrastructure (diamond lanes) are parking friendly for 22 hours out of the day.

Look at our developments. Woodrow Place (which isn't going through anyways) - First consideration; Car.
-Disraile - No diamond lane.
-Every downtown development has to have a parkade (which is OK).
-WestPort or whatever passed with flying colours.
-Seasons of Tuxedo turned into a sea of parking as well.
-Our subdivisions are given free reign on how dense they build, thus the density isn't near what it should be.
Even Fort Rouge, a Transit Oriented Development is providing 1.5 parking stalls per unit.

People always use the excuse, well Winnipeg isn't this city, or it isn't that city, so it is ok that we develop with cars as our first priority. Well folks Winnipeg is still a city, and we all know what will make a healthy city, a sustainable city, and a better city. Cars are at the bottom of the list with the latter principles as the goal.

If the mentality you guys have keeps up, 20 years from now you will all still be wondering why Winnipeg falls behind other city's on so many levels.

It is so sad that Winnipeg was a Gem ahead of its time back in the day, only to turn into what it is now. One of the reasons that I love it so much here is because I see the potential. With each development like this that potential is thrown out the door.

You are not taking into account at all that market forces drive economic development. Planting a walkable urban multi-use development in the middle of an industrial/shopping district is inevitably going to fail. Just because it is built does not mean success, in fact I can't imagine to many people even considering living in a development similar to the landsdown in that area right now. That being said its not like down the road proper developments won't take place on that parcel of land. I think the way to do it is to focus on already urban functioning and semi-functioning core neighbourhoods like the exchange, osborne village, west end/sherbrooke, broadway, and wolesly. Make strategic plans for these neighbourhoods that emphasizes densifying them and making them walking/transit oriented (as many already do). Grow them outward from in so that they sprawl (in a good way) to encompass more peripheral neighbourhoods. A way longer process but it will slowly reverse the current market demand. Quick fixes like plopping urban minded developments in unsuitable areas won't change the city into what most of us on this board want. Reversing the structure of this city is going to be an inherently long process, just as its current state took decades of poor planning to create.

[flatlander]

Originally Posted by CoryB

First, Westport Festival is a hugely positive development in terms of transit service as it will see an extension of service almost a full mile further to the west. There is also a possibility that eventually the Westport Festival site will be a park and ride location for people commuting to the city from the west.

As for Target, to say they have selected Polo Park over a site on McGillivray is a lead misleading. I would be shocked to not see a Super Target in Seasons of Tuxedo or somewhere else in the Kenaston shopping region, much like Walmart operates out of both regions.

To me, Westport will only encourage more sprawling development outside the perimeter. Who cares if there's a park and ride location - would anybody actually take the bus from the perimeter to Portage and Main?

I live in osborne south and it already pisses me off that i have less bus service so that we can serve the University of Manitoba better. Rapid Transit is not benefitting the neighbourhoods best able to support it. Yet.

I know people crap on Polo Park traffic but really - the only thing worse than bad traffic is no traffic. With changing technologies and transportation needs that area could've been one big abandoned industrial site. Instead it's retail with hopefully more higher density residential to follow. That's not a bad transition.

[bryanscott]

Originally Posted by chrisallard5454

Polo Park has taken a step backwards with this development, not a step in the right direction.

No right direction exists for Polo Park. As far as walkable urban neighborhoods go, Polo Park is a lost cause. It was never meant to be such a neighborhood, and has never been planned as such. Not one of the developments that has occurred in Polo Park since its transformation from industrial zone to commercial/residential zone began has encouraged it to become more attractive from an urbanist's point of view. It's a suburban development in the middle of the city. There is no fixing this in the foreseeable future. Unless you've got a truckload of dynamite and a new mayor and council willing and able to take office.

I think your angst (and mine, for that matter) might be less in vain if your energy was focused on improving areas of the city in which urban/walkable frameworks are already in place, but are (perhaps) underutilized. Graham Avenue. Osborne Street (Osborne Village part and South Osborne part). Corydon Avenue. Academy Road. Provencher Boulevard. Sherbrook Street. Parts of Portage Avenue. Parts of Main Street. St. Mary's Road. Marion Street. West Broadway. Selkirk Avenue. Parts of Henderson. Much of Downtown.

I could go on and on. These streets/hoods represent a fairly wide range of success or lack thereof, but when you look at the whole picture, Winnipeg has a pretty great framework of urban, walkable streets and neighborhoods. Sure, Portage Avenue and Selkirk Avenue are years past their prime, but look at what's happened to Main Street (between Portage and City Hall) over the last few years: It's become bar central!

Fuck Polo Park. Stay focused in the parts of the city the are already great, or could be great, but just need some love.

[bryanscott]

Originally Posted by dpenner

I think the way to do it is to focus on already urban functioning and semi-functioning core neighbourhoods like the exchange, osborne village, west end/sherbrooke, broadway, and wolesly.

Dang, you beat me to the punch. Was typing as you posted this, but we're pretty much saying the exact same thing. Well said, sir!

[Mininari]

Excellent post, dpenner.
Precisely. It makes way more sense to work on the existing Urban neighbourhoods then try to convert a suburban big-box shopping area. Perhaps down the road, when Winnipeg has developed more rapid transit (hopefully LRT), then Polo Park could be redeveloped as a 'station-hub' along the 'Regional Town Centre' model being employed in the Greater Vancouver Area. It used to be a shopping mall surrounded by single-level retail, auto repair shops, etc.

1980's
http://www.globalairphotos.com/images/bc/burnaby/1982/byh1982_004.jpg
Now
http://www.globalairphotos.com/large/BC/Burnaby/Metrotown/2012/0183/2

Brentwood Town Centre is another example, and very recent too given the Millennium skytrain line was completed only about 10 years ago.

Coquitlam Town Centre, and most of the development there has been on the PROMISE of a skytrain extension (now to be completed 2016).

Granted, market forces drove the rapid transformations in the Vancouver area, but it is not unreasonable to see something along these lines happen to the Polo Park area one day...

[1ajs]

am i reading this right? writing off part of the city guys... why? that just allows areas to fester bad design and ideas come on we need to look at the city as a whole... otherwise were just shooting outselfs in the foot

[rrskylar]

Originally Posted by flatlander

To me, Westport will only encourage more sprawling development outside the perimeter. Who cares if there's a park and ride location - would anybody actually take the bus from the perimeter to Portage and Main?

I live in osborne south and it already pisses me off that i have less bus service so that we can serve the University of Manitoba better. Rapid Transit is not benefitting the neighbourhoods best able to support it. Yet.

I know people crap on Polo Park traffic but really - the only thing worse than bad traffic is no traffic. With changing technologies and transportation needs that area could've been one big abandoned industrial site. Instead it's retail with hopefully more higher density residential to follow. That's not a bad transition.

Your correct, how anyone can advocate Westport is beyond me. Well I tend to agree the quality of bus service in south Winnipeg has diminished with rapid transit but a rapid transit network is vital to all of Winnipeg and to be sitting on the fence with a half completed route is absurd.

[jmt18325]

Originally Posted by 1ajs

am i reading this right? writing off part of the city guys... why?

Not all of the city needs to be or should be like what we'd like to see for the core urban areas. This isn't writing off part of the city, it's living in reality land.

[bryanscott]

Originally Posted by 1ajs

am i reading this right? writing off part of the city guys... why? that just allows areas to fester bad design and ideas come on we need to look at the city as a whole... otherwise were just shooting outselfs in the foot

I'm not saying that parts of the city. I'm just saying that in some areas od the city the suburbs have essentially won out. Polo Park is one of them. I'm not going to lose sleep if it continues to be the car-centric suburban shopping district that it is. Even great, thriving urban centers have these areas.

But you won't catch me anywhere near there on a Saturday afternoon near Christmas.