The future of Ottawa's Transit

[lrt's friend]

Fact: PRESTO Cards can be used on STO's smart card reader (ACS Xerox platform) for bus pass users and transfer users. I've used my PRESTO Card on STO.

Just read that again. Transfer users, which really means that occasional users can only use their Presto card one way, if you are crossing to Gatineau. At the same time, we are creating disincentives to use cash, ie significantly higher fares. I find this a major flaw if we are trying to encourage transit use, discourage cash payment, and promote interprovincial transit.

[m0nkyman]

Originally Posted by KHOOLE

I do not agree with your “—” statement and I wish that you would retract yourself. Don’t forget that Skyscrapers is an international organization with HQ in the US and a readership in many countries. What you write as a personal opinion in this forum can be quoted and misinterpreted elsewhere in the world in a detrimental way.

For one, SSP is Canadian, and run by a Canadian. Mailing address:
Skyscraper Source Media
PO Box 8412
Victoria BC, V8W 3S1
Canada

And secondly, it's a forum with diverse opinions, and anyone who quotes from SSP thinking that any single quote is representative of the whole is quite frankly an idiot.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

The word "—" or the whole statement? If it's the word, fine, I can edit it out. But if it's the statement, then no. I grew up in Québec and spent years going to schools jam packed with souvrenist idiots. And a lot of these people are also hypocrites who work or have worked for the feds, others are hypocrites teaching at U of O. And somehow they all forget the billions in federal cash transfers that support Québec, or the fact that their nonsense cost them big businesses (such as the big Banks) to move out of Montreal to Toronto.

As for working with the officials of the three levels of government, now that the separatists are in the “National Assembly”, forget about it.

And yes eternallyme, I also blame Queen's Park for this Presto mess.

Sorry for interrupting the diatribe, but let's be honest - Ontario almost never takes any cues from Quebec. And Ottawa is even less likely to take cues from Gatineau.

And Gatineau is hardly Vive le Québec libre central.

[Capital Shaun]

For those of us who commute between Ottawa/Gatineau on occasion, but not often enough to justify a monthly pass, the Presto card is useless for trips back to Ottawa.

When the Presto rules were first announced I complained to OC Transpo about this.

But I suspect the number of those who commute beyond the downtown Hull area don't represent a large enough number for this to change.

Ideally we should have adopted STO's system. The travel planners of both networks are already integrated.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

As for working with the officials of the three levels of government, now that the separatists are in the “National Assembly”, forget about it.

Let's see how long that lasts.

However, i find that "federalist" governments in Quebec are worse for interprovincial co-operation, shying away from it in order to prove their soft-nationalist credentials.

With the PQ, you know where they stand, and so do they.

[JCL]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Just read that again. Transfer users, which really means that occasional users can only use their Presto card one way, if you are crossing to Gatineau. At the same time, we are creating disincentives to use cash, ie significantly higher fares. I find this a major flaw if we are trying to encourage transit use, discourage cash payment, and promote interprovincial transit.

No different from the present policy of not allowing OC Transpo users to deposit OC bus tickets onto an STO bus in Gatineau and vice-versa with STO bus tickets on OC Transpo buses.

This is decision between OC Transpo and STO, not PRESTO.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by JCL

No different from the present policy of not allowing OC Transpo users to deposit OC bus tickets onto an STO bus in Gatineau and vice-versa with STO bus tickets on OC Transpo buses.

This is decision between OC Transpo and STO, not PRESTO.

And what about the customer? Just because we have done this forever doesn't mean that we shouldn't make this easier in the future, especially when we are going to a smart card system. Surely a smart card system for pay as you go customers could give the fare to the appropriate transit agency. When there is an ongoing interprovincial transit study, which may change the way transit operates, fare payment needs to be reassessed as well.

I guess the expectation is that we should carry 2 transit smart cards. How ridiculous! The whole point of going to this system is to make fare payment easier for both regular and occasional users and to get away from cash and ticket fares. This really fails and continues to discourage residents from making use of both transit systems and ultimately makes seemless integration of the two systems impossible.

[Acajack]

Just wondering - could you imagine the uproar, snarky comments and Quebec-bashing if the STO had implemented a smart card system that was compatible with Montreal or Quebec City but NOT Ottawa?

[Dado]

As a follow-up to my earlier post, here is what the STO has to say about using their Multi card on OC Transpo (STO actually gives a more useful answer overall too):

http://www.sto.ca/index.php?id=344&L=en#c3186

Q. Can I use my Multi card on OC Transpo buses?

A. The Multi has a zone that is shared by both public transit systems to ensure that our riders keep the same privileges as in the past.

If you have a card with a pass, simply tap the PRESTO reader. A green light will show the card has been validated.

If you are paying the fare with your e-wallet, the transfer time is recorded automatically on your Multi. OC Transpo’s PRESTO system will recognize that the trip is valid when you tap the reader with your card.

When you pay with your e-wallet, you cannot start a trip on the OC Transpo system with your Multi card. Only trips transferring from the STO system are permitted. The same restriction applies when using a PRESTO card with an e-wallet on the STO system.

Nevertheless, for the first few months until the new OC Transpo system is fully functional, we recommend you keep the receipt proving that you have loaded the pass onto the card being used, or the transfer you receive from the STO driver.

OC Transpo passes and paper transfers will continue to be accepted by the STO.

The upshot is that the two systems are the same in that neither allows for the other system's cards to pay for single trips. Basically it would seem that neither system is capable of deducting money from the other system's cards; they can only check if the card is a monthly pass or has already paid out.


As lrt's friend points out, anyone making occasional trips between Gatineau and Ottawa outside the commonly-served downtowns who isn't a monthly passholder will effectively require both a PRESTO card and a Multi card.

[JCL]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

And what about the customer? Just because we have done this forever doesn't mean that we shouldn't make this easier in the future, especially when we are going to a smart card system. Surely a smart card system for pay as you go customers could give the fare to the appropriate transit agency. When there is an ongoing interprovincial transit study, which may change the way transit operates, fare payment needs to be reassessed as well.

I guess the expectation is that we should carry 2 transit smart cards. How ridiculous! The whole point of going to this system is to make fare payment easier for both regular and occasional users and to get away from cash and ticket fares. This really fails and continues to discourage residents from making use of both transit systems and ultimately makes seemless integration of the two systems impossible.

So that would mean that both OC Transpo and STO would have to change the policy so that it allows customers from both sides of the river to be able to use their respective smart cards that are on "pay-per-ride" .

[MalcolmTucker]

Since the cost of the card systems is partially paid for by taking a cut from transactions when you add more parties to the transaction, things get difficult.

[lrt's friend]

This really illustrates the lack of cooperation between the two transit agencies at the expense of the customers. As long as we do this sort of thing, we are creating a barrier for using the two transit systems which will limit integration and consequently ridership. What a pity.

This barrier is real. In my case, I have used OC Transpo many thousands of times but never once STO. It is like it is unknown territory.

[eternallyme]

I strongly agree, both systems need to be able to deduct fares and top-up surcharges from the smart card (same or different) for it to be successful in the Ottawa area. The fares do not have to be the same (and a surcharge could be implemented if the fares differ too much) but it needs to be more simpler than the current setup that requires buying separate tickets. Express fares would need to work both ways though as well (charge the $1.35 surcharge from STO to OC express, 50 cents from OC to STO express, $3.00 from OC to STO interzone).

In addition, once that is set up, then it should be time to expand to the regional networks (i.e. Clarence-Rockland). That would work similarly, as if an express fare was charged initially, but with a much higher fare. For those starting on OC Transpo and using the fare deduction, the remaining fare would be deducted on the regional bus. For those starting on the regional bus, the entire fare would be deducted there with regular transfer rules on OC Transpo (i.e. one transfer from Regional to OC, then it works normally for 90 minutes from there). For monthly passes, it would be simple - the maximum fare would EASILY cover the OC Transpo fare on all routes.

[RTWAP]

Originally Posted by Dado

As lrt's friend points out, anyone making occasional trips between Gatineau and Ottawa outside the commonly-served downtowns who isn't a monthly passholder will effectively require both a PRESTO card and a Multi card.

I wonder if they could just use either card. It seems like the requirement is that you have two accounts, one with each transit system. But if there was a way to register your Presto card to an account with STO (and vice versa) then it would all be good.

The stupid thing is these cards are going to probably go away within 5-10 years. Almost everyone will be using cellphones to tap their way onto a bus.

[S-Man]

This is all very intense...

Suffice it to say that Ottawa and Gatineau are like two straight friends forced to spend the night in a single bed. They're both cool with the other guy being there and understand the situation, but both will make damn sure there's some sort of buffer zone between them, even if it is miniscule.

Now enough of this strange, — transit fantasy, you weirdos!

[Capital Shaun]

Originally Posted by JCL

So that would mean that both OC Transpo and STO would have to change the policy so that it allows customers from both sides of the river to be able to use their respective smart cards that are on "pay-per-ride" .

That's the problem. I'm not allowed to own a STO card since I'm a resident of Ottawa.

I currently have to carry both OC Transpo and STO tickets. And next year it'll be a Presto card and STO tickets.

I doubt the reasons for this are really technical. It's all politics and bureaucracy at this point.

[AuxTown]

Originally Posted by S-Man

This is all very intense...

Suffice it to say that Ottawa and Gatineau are like two straight friends forced to spend the night in a single bed. They're both cool with the other guy being there and understand the situation, but both will make damn sure there's some sort of buffer zone between them, even if it is miniscule.

Now enough of this strange, — transit fantasy, you weirdos!

I think Gatineau just touched my leg....I'm sleeping on the floor.

[Cre47]

I should have posted this here rather than the Rapid Transit section - well probably it was worthy but of the rapid transit portion.

http://libreauquotidien.sto.ca/proposition-services.php
http://libreauquotidien.sto.ca/services-proposal.php

Anyways, it looks though if we combine the two main rapibus peak routes, there is a bus essentially every 2-3 minutes along the main line. The frequency for each route is around 4-8 minutes during peak period with extra buses at times. I find it stupid though that the red route (200 which is the Ottawa route) won't serve the Place D'Accueil stop because it would give different options for those working at Place du Portage and those who walk a bit the TDC buildings and the two new buildings that were built.

Route 400 is basically the main non-peak Rapibus route to Ottawa, but I would have instead of running it every 15 minutes to run it every 7/8 middays and every 10 minutes on Saturdays especially with the fact many of the local routes won't serve les Promenades.

The proposed local network is a bit of a mess. First of all, almost all local routes and express routes will be tweaked. Many of them will be longer than the current express and or local routes and very few will serve les Promenades (which is why frequencies should be more than the proposed ones during off-peak). Basically almost everybody will have to take two buses or take one and walk 5-15 minutes to get to les Promenades. A big mess on weekends since all local routes will be only every hour. I think that every route that is west of Montee Paiement should at least serve les Promenades Station. The routes ending at La Gappe should end at La Cite and vice-versa.

[Cre47]

Anyways the local routes

A - This is the current route 79 which remain unchanged with one extra peak period trip, though they've had return trips in the opposite direction during both peak periods

B- Cover the eastern portion of route 78 east of Lorrain (except Saint-Rene east of Lorrain) and parts of route 88 (south of Saint-Rene)

C- Covers the Notre-Dame portion of route 78 as well as some portions of Maloney served by the 74/84/96 and Boul Le Carrefour (served by the 77/82) - and the portion of the 88 on Lorrain - yes this is a messy route

D- Covers much of the area served by the 71/90 (except small portion west of Montee Paiement and Davidson) and the Saint-Rene portion that is served by the 81

E- Another route that replaces portions of several routes. It covers the small neighborhood north of Labrosse and Maloney served by the 90, as well as portions of the 72/78 near Main and Maloney, the 77 on Magnus and Saint-Rene east of Montee Paiement (somewhat replacing the nearby current 78 as well) as well as the small portion of the 71/85 near the Hospital

F- Covers the small portion west of Paiement served by the 71/83 (which should be instead on the D) before heading towards the Du Barry area served by the 66/86

G- Covers almost all of route 76 except Greber. Cover a small portion of the 66 in the area north of Les Promenades

H- Covers most of the current route 63, but becomes a two-way route

I- Basically replacing most of the current route 57/67

J- Does the western Limbour part of the 66/87 before following Cannes Ave (route 64/80) before making a huge detour to Greber (route 76/83) before ending at La Gappe

K-Starts like the J, but does the Mont-Luc area of the 66/87 before doing the Touraine portion of the 64/89

L- Short route (peak only) covering Saint-Louis (route 89) as well as the new area near the Cantley limits served by the 80

M-Replacing parts of the 78 on Saint-Rene as well as the portion of the 88 on Cheval Blanc north of Saint-Rene

N- Peak period replacing most of the current 74/84 on Maloney

P- Replacing the current 94 until the Lorrain exit

Q- Replacing the current 96 till Labrosse

R- Replacing the eastern part of route 98 than running on Georges and the 50 till Labrosse

S- Replacing the western part of route 98 and followng route R west of Buckingham

Also route 33 would end at La Cite Station, route 20 would follow the Rapibus instead of Saint-Joseph and route 68 will run most of the day and run from the CEGEP to the Rapibus at Labrosse.

[eternallyme]

Originally Posted by Cre47

Anyways the local routes

A - This is the current route 79 which remain unchanged with one extra peak period trip, though they've had return trips in the opposite direction during both peak periods

B- Cover the eastern portion of route 78 east of Lorrain (except Saint-Rene east of Lorrain) and parts of route 88 (south of Saint-Rene)

C- Covers the Notre-Dame portion of route 78 as well as some portions of Maloney served by the 74/84/96 and Boul Le Carrefour (served by the 77/82) - and the portion of the 88 on Lorrain - yes this is a messy route

D- Covers much of the area served by the 71/90 (except small portion west of Montee Paiement and Davidson) and the Saint-Rene portion that is served by the 81

E- Another route that replaces portions of several routes. It covers the small neighborhood north of Labrosse and Maloney served by the 90, as well as portions of the 72/78 near Main and Maloney, the 77 on Magnus and Saint-Rene east of Montee Paiement (somewhat replacing the nearby current 78 as well) as well as the small portion of the 71/85 near the Hospital

F- Covers the small portion west of Paiement served by the 71/83 (which should be instead on the D) before heading towards the Du Barry area served by the 66/86

G- Covers almost all of route 76 except Greber. Cover a small portion of the 66 in the area north of Les Promenades

H- Covers most of the current route 63, but becomes a two-way route

I- Basically replacing most of the current route 57/67

J- Does the western Limbour part of the 66/87 before following Cannes Ave (route 64/80) before making a huge detour to Greber (route 76/83) before ending at La Gappe

K-Starts like the J, but does the Mont-Luc area of the 66/87 before doing the Touraine portion of the 64/89

L- Short route (peak only) covering Saint-Louis (route 89) as well as the new area near the Cantley limits served by the 80

M-Replacing parts of the 78 on Saint-Rene as well as the portion of the 88 on Cheval Blanc north of Saint-Rene

N- Peak period replacing most of the current 74/84 on Maloney

P- Replacing the current 94 until the Lorrain exit

Q- Replacing the current 96 till Labrosse

R- Replacing the eastern part of route 98 than running on Georges and the 50 till Labrosse

S- Replacing the western part of route 98 and followng route R west of Buckingham

Also route 33 would end at La Cite Station, route 20 would follow the Rapibus instead of Saint-Joseph and route 68 will run most of the day and run from the CEGEP to the Rapibus at Labrosse.

I don't really like the numbering; I would have numbered them (all Rapibus routes end in zero):

Peak to Downtown Hull: 70
Peak to Downtown Ottawa: 80
Peak via Autoroute 50: do not implement, too prone to congestion
All times to Rivermead (Aylmer): 50A (via Rapibus), 50B (to Ottawa)

Off-peak to Downtown Hull and Ottawa: 70

As for locals, here is how I would set it up:

60 - Crosstown route via Alonzo-Wright (basically a renumbering of 33) from Plateau to Les Promenades

61 - Planned "L" (peak periods only)

63 - Planned "H"

64 - Planned "K"

66 - Western part of "F" and most of "J"

67 - Same as current route, except extended along Maloney to Labrosse (replacing 74/96), parts of planned "C" and "I". Also terminates in downtown Hull.

69 - Planned "C" on Notre-Dame (should be peak only)

71 - Planned "D" and most of "F", plus a small part of "I", along Greber, Nobert and Davidson.

76 - Planned "M" (should be peak only, combined B/M in off-peak)

77 - Most of Planned "E" except continuing along St-Rene to Labrosse (reduce duplication with 67). Would not continue to downtown Hull/Ottawa as it does now.

78 - Planned "B" (and "M" during off-peak)

79 - Planned "A"

94 - Planned "P"

96 - Planned "Q" (and most of "N", no separate route)

97 - Planned "R"

98 - Planned "S"

On Routes 60, 67 and 77, the off-peak frequency should be every 30 minutes.