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  #4201  
Old Posted Sep 16, 2012, 11:00 AM
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September 16, 2012

An updated view from Signal Hill:


Fortis Place and 351 Water Street by SignalHillHiker, on Flickr


St. John's from Signal Hill by SignalHillHiker, on Flickr


Downtown Rising by SignalHillHiker, on Flickr
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  #4202  
Old Posted Sep 16, 2012, 3:17 PM
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Looking good I wish I liked taking pictures as much as you do haha
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  #4203  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2012, 10:24 AM
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September 17, 2012

An update on the hotel going up on Kenmount Road.


New Hotel on Kenmount by SignalHillHiker, on Flickr


New Hotel on Kenmount by SignalHillHiker, on Flickr
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  #4204  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2012, 10:56 PM
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Council rejects demolition of former Breakwater Books building: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundla.../nl-breakwater-books-demolition-917.html
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  #4205  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2012, 12:03 AM
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How tall is it? 3 storeys? What was the purpose of the demolition request?
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  #4206  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2012, 12:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chadillaccc View Post
How tall is it? 3 storeys? What was the purpose of the demolition request?
I believe the people who own the building want to demolish probably for a new build. I don't see why, the building isn't really falling apart or anything.
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  #4207  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2012, 9:21 AM
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How tall is it? 3 storeys? What was the purpose of the demolition request?
In my experience, there are two main factors.

1. The value of any lot in the old town area of the city FAR exceeds the value of any of the heritage buildings on those lots. When landowners see how much their property is worth, and realize they'll never get that much for it because of the heritage building on it, they tend to want to demolish. They typically refuse to rent out the buildings for a few years, allow them to fall into disrepair, and then say, "Oh, well, I got no other choice, b'ys. No one wants to rent it and it's falling apart...". Luckily, the city is starting to call BS on these requests and is showing developers the right way to go about it as they did with the Star of the Sea site.

2. We have some developers who wish St. John's was a wild western free for all with no heritage protection. And they often don't want to build up, they just want to build cheap. Proof: just look at every single ****ing thing they've put up in areas of the city without heritage protection laws.
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  #4208  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2012, 9:55 AM
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Isn't that where the adjoining buildings (behind it) burned down? I would imagine they wanted to consolidate the site by tearing down this remaining perfectly good heritage building and using it all for a new development.

Google view:
http://goo.gl/maps/yB2Q1
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  #4209  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2012, 10:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Architype View Post
Isn't that where the adjoining buildings (behind it) burned down? I would imagine they wanted to consolidate the site by tearing down this remaining perfectly good heritage building and using it all for a new development.

Google view:
http://goo.gl/maps/yB2Q1
It is - I remember someone telling me that here a while ago (I didn't know what happened to it).
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  #4210  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2012, 10:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Architype View Post
Isn't that where the adjoining buildings (behind it) burned down? I would imagine they wanted to consolidate the site by tearing down this remaining perfectly good heritage building and using it all for a new development.

Google view:
http://goo.gl/maps/yB2Q1
you are right, thats where Roebathan McKay and Marshall used to be, and I beleive the site (where the buildings burned down) belongs to Danny Williams, I remember him saying in an interveiw about his upcoming projects (icecaps.. Glencrest..etc..) that they were going to have to rebuilding something on that site in the near future... however I do not know who owns the building which applied for demolition (maybe they thought they could sell it to Danny as a lot?) I dunno
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  #4211  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2012, 11:03 AM
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If the owner isn't allowed to do what they want with their own land, then the council should have to buy it from them for fair market value, if the owner wishes to get rid of it. I don't know specific details about this building so I can't comment extensively, but I hate seeing stuff like this.

At least give the owner a chance to present a proposal. Maybe there is a way to work the building's historic facade into a more modern structure.
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  #4212  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2012, 11:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeddy1989 View Post
you are right, thats where Roebathan McKay and Marshall used to be, and I beleive the site (where the buildings burned down) belongs to Danny Williams, I remember him saying in an interveiw about his upcoming projects (icecaps.. Glencrest..etc..) that they were going to have to rebuilding something on that site in the near future... however I do not know who owns the building which applied for demolition (maybe they thought they could sell it to Danny as a lot?) I dunno
It was Danny's project.
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  #4213  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2012, 11:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Copes View Post
If the owner isn't allowed to do what they want with their own land, then the council should have to buy it from them for fair market value, if the owner wishes to get rid of it. I don't know specific details about this building so I can't comment extensively, but I hate seeing stuff like this.

At least give the owner a chance to present a proposal. Maybe there is a way to work the building's historic facade into a more modern structure.
They should have came forth with a proposal along with the demolition request, because it is demolition with no context .. as of right now all you can assume is it will become a vacant lot, and it is right next to the war memorial and in the heart of other historic properties, if they were to just tear it down or to replace it with something modern it will be chipping away at the look of that area which I do not support, however if they proposed something and we could see what the idea is, it probably is something good, however only time shall tell (keeping the facade I think is a great solution)
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  #4214  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2012, 11:27 AM
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If they keep the fascade and restore a similar one on the adjacent, vacant lot - I'm fine with losing the rest of the building as well. I'd prefer not to... I think that's an appropriate compromise when the building is run-down or when there are no possible tenants. In this case, it sounds like the building is fine if the owners actually tried to rent it out, they could.
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  #4215  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2012, 11:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeddy1989 View Post
They should have came forth with a proposal along with the demolition request, because it is demolition with no context .. as of right now all you can assume is it will become a vacant lot, and it is right next to the war memorial and in the heart of other historic properties, if they were to just tear it down or to replace it with something modern it will be chipping away at the look of that area which I do not support, however if they proposed something and we could see what the idea is, it probably is something good, however only time shall tell (keeping the facade I think is a great solution)
I completely agree with you. I'd like for the building to be preserved, it's a great heritage building still in good shape. But the fact remains that something has to be done, the status quo is just not going to cut it. I think council should work with the owners of the lot and come up with developing this site while preserving the heritage. I don't think council should be allowed to reject such proposals and then leave it at that. This may be an arduous task, but the potential of a heritage preserved development is huge.
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  #4216  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2012, 11:47 AM
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You all know my perspective on the heritage vs modern debate. I tend to be modern-leaning, while still maintaining the noteworthy heritage aspects.

Some of the comments in the CBC article section suggest the interior of the building is in worse shape than council indicates. Particularly the foundation. I can't comment enough to know what is true or what isn't, but generally speaking, I think its safe to say that the facade is what would be truly upsetting to lose. I'm not necessarily against blocking a straight demolition, but I am against preventing the owner to upgrade his property.

Situations like this are tough. I'm a capitalist to the core, and that makes me side largely with the owner. Buuuut I do understand the heritage argument. Damn it shades of grey!
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  #4217  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2012, 12:43 PM
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We seem to have almost opposite views, ha! But I bet we'd agree most of the time in context. It's not as though you want to turn Gower Street in Kenmount Road.

I worry about allowing too much modernity. We have a beautiful, old city - comparable to European cities like Oslo - and we have to preserve it as best we can. Otherwise we'll just be another coastal city like some of our Maritime neighbours.

And modern buildings don't age well. The heritage structures seem more beautiful now than when they were built, but even some of the relatively recent modern additions like the Cabot Place Complex and Atlantic Place are already ugly and out of place. I think, objectively, they detract from St. John's, not add to it.

Small projects that respect the traditional style - like the Bluedrop Building - will always be better than the TD Building, the old Fortis Building, etc. Bluedrop fits in, TD and the old Fortis, again, detract. They stick out like eyesores.

So I'm willing to accept modern buildings, like Bluedrop, like Star of the Sea, as long as they fit in with the overall atmosphere of the old town core and don't create a feeling of "Well, these could be anywhere in the Maritimes" - like TD, the old Fortis, Atlantic Place, etc.

And I'm willing to compromise. I even think it'd be wise for the city to buy out commercial property owners in most of the old town core, say from George at Water to Military at King's Bridge. The city could rent these properties out and use the profits to keep up the buildings and we wouldn't have to worry about developers forcing the city's hand.

But, even so... the old town area is so small. It's really not asking a lot for developers to respect it and just keep their modern proposals elsewhere. They only have a to move a few blocks west and, as Deacon has shown, there's very little opposition.
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  #4218  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2012, 4:29 PM
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It all depends what your taste is by saying modern buildings don't age well, some don't like the look of heritage buildings now. As well who's to say we won't look back in fifty years and say "wow the John Cabot building is beautiful, they just don't make them like that anymore!"
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  #4219  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2012, 4:33 PM
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Funny you used Oslo as an example though.

I took these in 2010:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ayrcan/5626402158/in/set-72157626368013319
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ayrcan/5626406320/in/set-72157626368013319/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ayrcan/5744661427/in/set-72157626368013319
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ayrcan/5628810418/in/set-72157626368013319

That city's certainly not shy to build ultra-modern in the heart of town, more-so than almost any other European city I've been to, except Rotterdam.
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  #4220  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2012, 4:53 PM
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I thought Oslo did a fantastic job of keeping the old/new almost completely separate.

I found most of everything in the old town area of Oslo was actually old - and the few modern buildings I noticed were all in the style of your first photo, or the Bluedrop building - meaning they fit in quite well and we're obnoxiously different from the surroundings.
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