YVR Airport & Sea Island Developments Discussion

[trofirhen]

I'd like to see some renders and floor plans of the new, revamped Piers A and B of the Domestic Terminal, which will apparently be, primarily if not exclusively, for West Jet. This means, I would assume, a greater capacity for West Jet at YVR, and who knows, ....... could it be possible that Vancouver may, one day in the future mists, become a Hub City for WJ? (probably not, but perchance to dream .....)

[Zassk]

Originally Posted by bils

a single caterpillar is on the site of the outlet mall and has begun clearing some of the brush.

There are now six diggers, additional earth movers and one oversized dump truck, a project office trailer, and a nonstop parade of double-dump trucks removing dirt from the site. Work appears to be going on 7 days a week. This pace has been ongoing for at least 2 weeks.

I guess this development is a fait accompli.

Perhaps they will at least put a pedestrian bridge over to Aberdeen Station (which is about 400m away over the water).

[teriyaki]

Originally Posted by Zassk

Perhaps they will at least put a pedestrian bridge over to Aberdeen Station (which is about 400m away over the water).

Great idea, I would love for this to happen. But I think there is 0% chance of this happening in Vancouver for a multitude of reasons.

One being, the weather here isn't conducive to lots of foot traffic (uncovered atleast).
Second, the cost/red tape to construct such a structure would turn any developer away.
Third. The target demographic they are looking to attract wouldn't likely be using transit anyways so a footbridge would not give them any gains in customer flow.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

I'd like to see some renders and floor plans of the new, revamped Piers A and B of the Domestic Terminal, which will apparently be, primarily if not exclusively, for West Jet. This means, I would assume, a greater capacity for West Jet at YVR, and who knows, ....... could it be possible that Vancouver may, one day in the future mists, become a Hub City for WJ? (probably not, but perchance to dream .....)

Unless they go for a massive overseas expansion, I don't think geography really favours Vancouver as a hub. In my experience with the prices for flights to Vancouver on WestJet, they are full of origin and destination passengers. When you can run lower capacity at high yeild, why would canabalize your own yield by adding the capacity necessary for a hub.

[Porfiry]

Originally Posted by teriyaki

Third. The target demographic they are looking to attract wouldn't likely be using transit anyways so a footbridge would not give them any gains in customer flow.

I don't agree with that. Outlet malls, regardless of the retailers, are designed to attract price-sensitive individuals. YVR itself would also seem to disagree with you, since they supposedly are planning a shuttle service from one of the Canada Line stations (probably Templeton or SIC). This is probably good enough for now, and depending how nice/frequent the shuttle is, perhaps a better option than a footbridge.

[Zassk]

Originally Posted by teriyaki

Great idea, I would love for this to happen. But I think there is 0% chance of this happening in Vancouver for a multitude of reasons.

One being, the weather here isn't conducive to lots of foot traffic (uncovered atleast).
Second, the cost/red tape to construct such a structure would turn any developer away.
Third. The target demographic they are looking to attract wouldn't likely be using transit anyways so a footbridge would not give them any gains in customer flow.

Said bridge is actually detailed in the Richmond Official Community Plan (intended for the BCIT campus, not this mall, but it would be equally useful to both). In my ideal world, YVR would pay to have the bridge built immediately in exchange for the city's endorsement of the mall.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

Unless they go for a massive overseas expansion, I don't think geography really favours Vancouver as a hub. In my experience with the prices for flights to Vancouver on WestJet, they are full of origin and destination passengers. When you can run lower capacity at high yeild, why would canabalize your own yield by adding the capacity necessary for a hub.

You're right on about my ides about Vancouver ever being a WJ hub city, due it's "end of the line" geographic location.

But equally, I was wondering what the revamped YVR Pier A and B structure, primarily to devoted to WJ anyway I am told, would look like, be like, how it would add to the airport, and so on.

[Hourglass]

Originally Posted by Porfiry

I don't agree with that. Outlet malls, regardless of the retailers, are designed to attract price-sensitive individuals. YVR itself would also seem to disagree with you, since they supposedly are planning a shuttle service from one of the Canada Line stations (probably Templeton or SIC). This is probably good enough for now, and depending how nice/frequent the shuttle is, perhaps a better option than a footbridge.

True but it doesn't necessarily hold that bargain hunters will primarily take transit. Best comparison I can think of is Bicester Village in the UK, which attracts huge numbers of local and overseas visitors. Although there are coaches direct from Central London as well as shuttles to and from the local train station, I would say the majority of visitors drive.

[Porfiry]

Originally Posted by Hourglass

True but it doesn't necessarily hold that bargain hunters will primarily take transit. Best comparison I can think of is Bicester Village in the UK, which attracts huge numbers of local and overseas visitors. Although there are coaches direct from Central London as well as shuttles to and from the local train station, I would say the majority of visitors drive.

I don't see how that is even remotely comparable. Bicester is located in the middle of farmland nearly an hour from any major city. The train runs only a few times per hour and costs $85 (!) for a return ticket.

[Hourglass]

Originally Posted by Porfiry

I don't see how that is even remotely comparable. Bicester is located in the middle of farmland nearly an hour from any major city. The train runs only a few times per hour and costs $85 (!) for a return ticket.

1 hour from central London, you mean, a lot closer than that to Oxford, Aylesbury or other commuter towns, and prices on Chiltern Railways from London Marylebone can be significantly less than $85.

My point is that YVR is trying to build a destination outlet mall similar to Bicester or Ingolstadt. You think this is targeted only at Vancouver (ignoring for a moment the question of whether wealthy West Side bargain hunters will take transit)? What about people from the Tricities, Surrey or the Fraser Valley? You think they're all going to take the bus or Skytrain? So yes, I believe it is a valid comparison.

[SpongeG]

for trof re expansions

• Video Link

[Porfiry]

Originally Posted by Hourglass

1 hour from central London, you mean, a lot closer than that to Oxford, Aylesbury or other commuter towns, and prices on Chiltern Railways from London Marylebone can be significantly less than $85.

Well, every fare I can find says 27.15 pounds (~$43) one-way. A train ticket that's 10X the cost and 2X the distance is not remotely comparable.

My point is that YVR is trying to build a destination outlet mall similar to Bicester or Ingolstadt.

I think you fundamentally misunderstand the strategy. A destination mall could be built anywhere. The purpose for building it at YVR is to siphon off and monetize the through traffic (transient airport goers plus commuters). It's a lot easier to entice those transients to visit than to convince someone to drive from an hour away.

I'm not saying everyone will take transit, but they're not all going to drive either. To say that transit users aren't even a part of the target demographic is just wrong. If you think YVR should ignore transit for this project, you'd best talk to them first because it's pretty clear it's an important part of their thinking.

[Hourglass]

^
I never stated that YVR should ignore transit. I said people will primarily drive -- and cited a a couple data points from other outlet malls internationally to support this. This is further supported by statements from the Mayor of Richmond in the Richmond Review: "It's basically a mall with a sea of parking around it. Would we let any mall owner anywhere in Richmond these days do that?"

Brodie doesn't agree that Prada shoppers will line up for transit. I think he's got a point.

In contrast, you seem focused on two ideas: (i) the planned shuttle bus from the Canada Line and (ii) that outlet malls attract bargain hunters -- which you then conclude means people who are either price sensitive or with limited budgets who will therefore rely more on transit. I've got news for you: the demographic who chase discounts on designer labels extends far beyond the price sensitive / limited budget audience. Who doesn't like Armani at 30-70% off?

This is a destination OUTLET mall -- hence my comparison with other destination outlet malls such as Bicester, Ingolstadt, the Barberino designer outlet and others (which for some reason you can't seem to accept). Why else do you think YVR is partnering with McArthurGlen instead of, say, Cadillac Fairview? I agree with you that the the mall will capitalize on airport traffic and its position near commuter routes -- but that isn't enough to support this development. Successful outlet malls have a pretty wide catchment area. An INSEAD study from a few years ago suggested that the average distance traveled by customers to an outlet mall ranged from 30-80 miles. Remember, that's average distance. So it's easy to see why the Citygate outlet mall outside the airport in Hong Kong would attract an unbelievable amount of people from across the border in Mainland China, or that the Parndorf outlet near Vienna, Austria would be situated near the border with Slovakia -- or that the YVR mall is targeting more than airport traffic and commuters. Draw a circle 80 miles around Richmond. How much of the population in this circle do you honestly see taking transit, and how many would drive? There may be higher transit use due to its proximity to Vancouver, but the vast majority of people will still drive.

I've got the strategy wrong? Well, maybe, but at least I'm basing my conclusions on more than a shuttle bus to the Canada line and a misconception about who potential customers are and where they will be coming from.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by Porfiry

...I'm not saying everyone will take transit, but they're not all going to drive either. To say that transit users aren't even a part of the target demographic is just wrong. If you think YVR should ignore transit for this project, you'd best talk to them first because it's pretty clear it's an important part of their thinking.

Huh? You're saying the infrequent C92 route (the only one that goes near this) is an important part of the mall planning?

[Porfiry]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Huh? You're saying the infrequent C92 route (the only one that goes near this) is an important part of the mall planning?

YVR is planning a free shuttle to and from Templeton.

[Porfiry]

Originally Posted by Hourglass

^
I never stated that YVR should ignore transit.

Perhaps not, but teriyaki did and that is what I was responding to. He said that the "target demographic they are looking to attract wouldn't likely be using transit anyways", which I do not agree with. A customer is a customer.

My disagreement with you is with how you can use Bicester as an argument that transit ridership will be necessarily be poor, when that example is utterly irrelevant for reasons already explained. Just because both are "outlet malls" does not compensate for the fact that one is in the middle of farmland and one is inside a metro. Yes, that affects how people get there.

I don't think I said anything about people driving there. I'm sure it will be the primary mode, but the other modes matter also. Retail is a game of percentages and the trio of road connections, airport visitors, and quick and cheap transit access should translate to reasonable success. Take any one of those elements away and the chance of success is reduced.

[craneSpotter]

Massive YVR duty-free shop opens, sells $36k-a-bottle whisky

BIV - Nelson Bennett (link)
Fri Sep 21, 2012

The first World Duty Free shop outside the U.K. has officially opened at Vancouver International Airport, where travellers can buy pricy French perfume, high-end cosmetics and 70-year-old whisky that sells for $35,888 a bottle.

Only four bottles of Generations Glenlivet whisky, a rare Scotch malt from 1940, are on sale at the new duty-free store, which specializes in luxury items.

“Welcoming North America’s first World Duty Free store and one of the world’s oldest whiskies to YVR are testaments to the strong partnerships in place here to create a successful retail program,” said Vancouver Airport Authority CEO Larry Berg.

[Valley_Refugee]

Philippine Airlines is shuffling its Vancouver services. The YVR-LAS tail is being cut off. It'll be 4 weekly MNL-YVR return + 3 weekly YVR-MNL flights originating from Toronto.

http://airlineroute.net/2012/09/23/pr-las-jan13cxld/

http://airlineroute.net/2012/09/23/pr-yyz-w12/

[whatnext]

Looks like they're clearing land now between Templeton Station and the Arthur Laing. Is that the hotel project?

[osirisboy]

hotel? i never heard of a hotel going there.