New Arena for Downtown Edmonton

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by Clearshades

What truly is hyprocritical with this is that our government can spent 2 billion to study carbon capture for the oil companies whom are profitting billions-even during recession- but 100 million to help spurs our dowmtown is mind boggling! It is more than an arena; it is akin to putting on a suit and tie for the world. The same will be said for Calgary when they're ready for their rebuilt. Dubai is a find example of dressing up to welcome the world. Imagine the world thinking: the second largest oil reserve in the world and the downtown of their city is empty and lifeless. Great message Alberta government!

Edmonton is free to spend money from the MSI grants as it chooses. If it chooses to spend MSI on the arena, the gap will be closed.

The situation is similar to Calgary's airport trail tunnel - Calgary asked for a one time grant and the province said no. Calgary then made the hard decision to allocate MSI to pay for it.

The whole point of MSI and Fuel tax transfer before it is to provide more predictable funding over a period of time to make it easier for cities to plan what to spend grant money on. That the city choose to not plan to spend that money on the arena is their choice.

[Coldrsx]

^not at all, but it will assist in that it will bring a significant amount of people downtown many nights a year. It will be a magnet, not a silver bullet.

[kcantor]

Originally Posted by Coldrsx

^not at all, but it will assist in that it will bring a significant amount of people downtown many nights a year. It will be a magnet, not a silver bullet.

you aren't wrong Coldrsx but i think Clearshades meant that without the arena our downtown will be much different and will take much longer to achieve anything similar in critical mass than with it and i think you are understating the significance of that. that's the underlying foundation of the crl concept and while the arena isn't the only catalyst project within it and might not be a silver bullet on its own but it is clearly a full fledged mri and not a simple magnet.

[Clearshades]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

Edmonton is free to spend money from the MSI grants as it chooses. If it chooses to spend MSI on the arena, the gap will be closed.

The situation is similar to Calgary's airport trail tunnel - Calgary asked for a one time grant and the province said no. Calgary then made the hard decision to allocate MSI to pay for it.

The whole point of MSI and Fuel tax transfer before it is to provide more predictable funding over a period of time to make it easier for cities to plan what to spend grant money on. That the city choose to not plan to spend that money on the arena is their choice.

You're missing my point... 200 mil in total for the population of 2.5 mil is a no go; but our tax money- 2 billion is for carbon capture research for the, already, wealthy corporates and their billions in profit. Why is my tax money being used to futher their pocket? Where is theur commitnent for their profits?

[Clearshades]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

Edmonton is free to spend money from the MSI grants as it chooses. If it chooses to spend MSI on the arena, the gap will be closed.

The situation is similar to Calgary's airport trail tunnel - Calgary asked for a one time grant and the province said no. Calgary then made the hard decision to allocate MSI to pay for it.

The whole point of MSI and Fuel tax transfer before it is to provide more predictable funding over a period of time to make it easier for cities to plan what to spend grant money on. That the city choose to not plan to spend that money on the arena is their choice.

You're missing my point... 200 mil in total for the population of 2.5 mil is a no go; but our tax money- 2 billion is for carbon capture research for the, already, wealthy corporates and their billions in profit. Why is my tax money being used to futher their pocket? Where is their commitnent for their profits? The saddest part if this... Every oilsand projects has foreign hands involved, so in essence, help strangers and ignore your family!

[Clearshades]

Originally Posted by cdnklc

you aren't wrong Coldrsx but i think Clearshades meant that without the arena our downtown will be much different and will take much longer to achieve anything similar in critical mass than with it and i think you are understating the significance of that. that's the underlying foundation of the crl concept and while the arena isn't the only catalyst project within it and might not be a silver bullet on its own but it is clearly a full fledged mri and not a simple magnet.

That is correct. Just simply a shortform of expression.

[Gary Wayne]

When one looks at the arena we must also look beyond the short term and look at the long term effects. I have said it before that Edmonton is at a crossroads . For so long Edmonton has been anti development on a large scale. We now have a pro development council but that can so easily change .

[Clearshades]

Agree with you GW! This innitial wave of invesment (5 billion) is from forefront thinkers; therewill be a wave of followers to come once they see the affects of transformation, for it has become the trend.

[MichaelS]

Originally Posted by Clearshades

You're missing my point... 200 mil in total for the population of 2.5 mil is a no go; but our tax money- 2 billion is for carbon capture research for the, already, wealthy corporates and their billions in profit. Why is my tax money being used to futher their pocket? Where is theur commitnent for their profits?

Isn't this the exact reasoning used by people who are OPPOSED to this arena?...

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by Clearshades

You're missing my point... 200 mil in total for the population of 2.5 mil is a no go; but our tax money- 2 billion is for carbon capture research for the, already, wealthy corporates and their billions in profit. Why is my tax money being used to futher their pocket? Where is their commitnent for their profits? The saddest part if this... Every oilsand projects has foreign hands involved, so in essence, help strangers and ignore your family!

$2 billion over 20 years. And unless you want to figure out a way to mitigate climate change without a horendously high carbon tax, it is a pretty small price to pay.

[Black Star]

Originally Posted by MichaelS

Isn't this the exact reasoning used by people who are OPPOSED to this arena?...

I wish the general public were more enlightened to the benefits of both ventures.

[feepa]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

$2 billion over 20 years. And unless you want to figure out a way to mitigate climate change without a horendously high carbon tax, it is a pretty small price to pay.

Lets focus on the arena here, and not turn this into a sideshow for whether carbon capture will actually work, or be worth the large investment, and leave out whether the government should be responsible for this investment, or the industry, which will benefit from it.

And for what is worth, the arena could be stated as 450 Million over 35 years?

[Gary Wayne]

I could not agree more the arena and the arena district must be our focus. All of us who are pro arena must fight till the very end to make sure the arena and district gets built. Lets not let or guard down because the anti arena forces will never stop there fight to keep Edmonton from having what Edmonton needs to be a great city.

[Clearshades]

Originally Posted by MichaelS

Isn't this the exact reasoning used by people who are OPPOSED to this arena?...

One could use that argument, But the difference is that it will help both cities gain countless folds from that small investments... Help these giants corporates- multiple international players- does not give back to Canadians what it should.

[Clearshades]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

$2 billion over 20 years. And unless you want to figure out a way to mitigate climate change without a horendously high carbon tax, it is a pretty small price to pay.

Im not arguing that point. When there are foreigners recieving a handout at my expense, i too, would like to benefit at my own expense!

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by Clearshades

Im not arguing that point. When there are foreigners recieving a handout at my expense, i too, would like to benefit at my own expense!

The province granted the city $568,342,738 last fiscal year, and is on a path to deliver the same or more this year.

It is the city's choice where to direct the vast majority of the money.

Why should the province carve out a part of the grants and force the city to spend it on the arena if the city doesn't want to do it itself?

[Clearshades]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

The province granted the city $568,342,738 last fiscal year, and is on a path to deliver the same or more this year.

It is the city's choice where to direct the vast majority of the money.

Why should the province carve out a part of the grants and force the city to spend it on the arena if the city doesn't want to do it itself?

The same arguements could be used with the oil companies... We will give a break on royalties and you use that to develope further, and on top if that, here is 2 billion to help you with carbon capture. All in the mean time, record breaking profits. In return for Albertans and Canadians, they're trying decrease our wage to a lower standards and currently attempting to even supercede the standard that was already lowered! So, once again Alberta government, please help us Albertans with a small 100 mil per city. The return with that investment will be hundred folds+ for each cities.

[MichaelS]

Originally Posted by Clearshades

The same arguements could be used with the oil companies... We will give a break on royalties and you use that to develope further, and on top if that, here is 2 billion to help you with carbon capture. All in the mean time, record breaking profits. In return for Albertans and Canadians, they're trying decrease our wage to a lower standards and currently attempting to even supercede the standard that was already lowered! So, once again Alberta government, please help us Albertans with a small 100 mil per city. The return with that investment will be hundred folds+ for each cities.

Not wanting to take the thread off topic debating the health/environmental benefits every Albertan will get from the government's investment into carbon capture, I will just address the bolded part.

The return on investment is a projection. It might happen, and for Edmonton's sake I really hope it does if they go ahead with this arena. But, here is an interesting read that points to some parallel situations, and how it worked out for them. I am sure you can argue that Edmonton is different, like I said, I hope for that city's sake it is.

http://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2012/5/8/the-pitfalls-of-entertainment-districts.html

[Clearshades]

^
That is a great point brought forth... The difference in Edmonton and Calgary is that both cities have a strong economy to back this up where as America is in a stagnant cycle, so that does not help much. Even during the global recession, both cities were still thriving!
Just this morning on Global news, i saw a poll that stated, "would you move downtown if the arena district was developed?" The answer was 51% said yes! That is a good indication to me.

[MalcolmTucker]

Important to remember the difference between inducing new development and acting as a magnet for development that would have happened anyways elsewhere.

There is little evidence that the former has ever happened anywhere. This is not to discount the potential positives of the later, but an equal effect could likely be created by investinging far less in different facilities if we didn't need a new arena anyways.