ATLANTA | Development Thread V

[yangtze]

Originally Posted by TarHeelJ

I hope you're right...it's good to see some postitive posts after such a resounding defeat.

increasing the millage rate is a horrible
idea, Atlanta has some of the highest property tax rate,
and this would make Buckhead a cashcow for Atlanta.

I tjink there should be a congestion tax instead,
like in London. Drivers from the suburbs
pay a fee to get in the city, and use that to
improve transportation.

[johnandahalf]

Originally Posted by yangtze

increasing the millage rate is a horrible
idea, Atlanta has some of the highest property tax rate,
and this would make Buckhead a cashcow for Atlanta.

I tjink there should be a congestion tax instead,
like in London. Drivers from the suburbs
pay a fee to get in the city, and use that to
improve transportation.

How about anyone with tags from counties other than Dekalb or Fulton pay a toll to come inside the perimeter. Those who never come into town don't pay more than they do now, and those who come in, use our roads, poop in our sewers and go home will finally pay for using our infrastructure. Sort of like London, but a WAY bigger area.

[sevensixtwo]

Originally Posted by Terminus

Raising the sales tax rate is most likely not an option at this time, even in the city proper, as it is seen as a regressive tax. Property tax issues don't have this issue because of the homestead exemption.

I have heard the argument that raising public transit fare is a regressive tax but I have not heard that funding transit with a sales tax is regressive. What is the reasoning in that?

What's this you are saying about non-application to property taxes?

[TarHeelJ]

Originally Posted by johnandahalf

How about anyone with tags from counties other than Dekalb or Fulton pay a toll to come inside the perimeter. Those who never come into town don't pay more than they do now, and those who come in, use our roads, poop in our sewers and go home will finally pay for using our infrastructure. Sort of like London, but a WAY bigger area.

That sounds like a great way to push businesses to locate outside of Dekalb and Fulton.

Don't confuse Atlanta with London. I don't see it working well here.

[atlantaguy]

Originally Posted by TarHeelJ

That sounds like a great way to push businesses to locate outside of Dekalb and Fulton.

Don't confuse Atlanta with London. I don't see it working well here.

I totally agree, TarHellJ. I LOVE the idea and think it's fair in the grand scheme of things, but all it would do is force business OTP.

[Terminus]

Originally Posted by yangtze

increasing the millage rate is a horrible
idea, Atlanta has some of the highest property tax rate,
and this would make Buckhead a cashcow for Atlanta.

I tjink there should be a congestion tax instead,
like in London. Drivers from the suburbs
pay a fee to get in the city, and use that to
improve transportation.

We've actually been paying an additional millage rate that was approved in 2000 until I believe last year.

As for tax rates, they may be high for Georgia but they've always seemed very low to me. I mean, I have friends that literally pay $50 a year in total combined city/county property taxes on their condos due to the homestead exemptions. And even for higher priced properties, I pay only 40 percent as much here as I did for a comparably priced home in Vermont. Don't believe me? Look it up on the Fulton County website - tax bills are public record.

Personally, I'll take higher property taxes any day, because at least they're tax deductible on my income taxes, as where sales taxes aren't. Plus, our local governments are crazy and tax essential like groceries, which seems unfair to me.

[yangtze]

Originally Posted by Terminus

We've actually been paying an additional millage rate that was approved in 2000 until I believe last year.

As for tax rates, they may be high for Georgia but they've always seemed very low to me. I mean, I have friends that literally pay $50 a year in total combined city/county property taxes on their condos due to the homestead exemptions. And even for higher priced properties, I pay only 40 percent as much here as I did for a comparably priced home in Vermont. Don't believe me? Look it up on the Fulton County website - tax bills are public record.

Personally, I'll take higher property taxes any day, because at least they're tax deductible on my income taxes, as where sales taxes aren't. Plus, our local governments are crazy and tax essential like groceries, which seems unfair to me.

I guess it depends on the property value and where you compare. I have looked up property taxes in LA, New York, Boston, and most major cities, and compared them to Atlanta. Its really bad here, especially for high end. A $2M house in Atlanta pays much more property tax than a $2M house in most major cities,
Including manhattan, LA, San Francisco, as well as outlying areas like the hamptons or Connecticut (excluding New Jersey). We are talking factors of 2-3! check it out. It's all on zillow, pretty much in agreement with tax records.

Personally, I would not mind getting rid of Homestead exemption to fund this - so everyone contributes more equally.

[pdpmishap]

Originally Posted by yangtze

I guess it depends on the property value and where you compare. I have looked up property taxes in LA, New York, Boston, and most major cities, and compared them to Atlanta. Its really bad here, especially for high end. A $2M house in Atlanta pays much more property tax than a $2M house in most major cities,
Including manhattan, LA, San Francisco, as well as outlying areas like the hamptons or Connecticut (excluding New Jersey). We are talking factors of 2-3! check it out. It's all on zillow, pretty much in agreement with tax records.

Personally, I would not mind getting rid of Homestead exemption to fund this - so everyone contributes more equally.

GA has relatively low state income taxes compared to NY/CA and you get a bit more property for your dollar here. Yes, if you have a mansion on Paces Ferry you're kind of screwed but the vast majority of high end homes are outside the city limits and just check out the crazy homes you can get in E. Cobb or North Gwinnett area for $2M. CT has lower property/income taxes but they are a relatively small state w/ many people living there to escape the 10%+ state + city taxes you get in NYC. Texas has an interesting setup since they don't have state income taxes. A $2M property in Dallas racks up ~60k in property taxes.

[Frankster87]

Originally Posted by simms3_redux

I'm not sure why anyone is concerned about helping out the low density suburbs by providing them train service? What Atlanta needs is a series of street cars and light rail in the inner core and to hell with the "inserviceable" suburbs. People made their beds and they should sleep in them.

There are very few areas in Atlanta than can be developed densely and appropriately, and these are the areas that should be focused on. You can expand rail to the communities, office parks and subdivisions up north, but those expansions will be expensive and will serve communities not designed or planned for transit, density or walkability. Park and Ride only helps a region so much. It's time to think about "punishing" suburbs by not throwing more dollars at them. Suburbs require much more funding than constrained and confined areas with proper infrastructure and planning in place, and so from a taxpayer's perspective it actually makes more sense to "spend taxpayer money" more wisely on the city, rather than the burb or the exurb.

Besides, Atlanta could have seen DC as a model with its suburbs sprouting up nicely around stations, but that just can't work in Atlanta as the TOD concept never took hold. You're stuck with stations like Perimeter/North Springs, Doraville, Chamblee, Brookhaven, even Buckhead. Even the Midtown, Arts Center, and North Ave stations are laughable as they occupy entire city blocks. Even downtown the stations are much larger than they need to be (I remember commenting on this and posting Bing Maps aerials years ago on this site, and low and behold Atlanta Magazine mentioned the same thing last month!).

Frankly mid-rise density should be encouraged in Midtown and criss crossing street cars put in. Make Midtown a real place in the South and you'll have all sorts of companies wanting to be there. Leave the suburbs as is. They can have their "good" public schools and houses with yards and no trains, etc, and that way the metro can attract you're upper middle class middle-aged families and you're young professionals/creative types.

Simms for Governor!!

[scania]

Originally Posted by simms3_redux

I'm not sure why anyone is concerned about helping out the low density suburbs by providing them train service? What Atlanta needs is a series of street cars and light rail in the inner core and to hell with the "inserviceable" suburbs. People made their beds and they should sleep in them.

There are very few areas in Atlanta than can be developed densely and appropriately, and these are the areas that should be focused on. You can expand rail to the communities, office parks and subdivisions up north, but those expansions will be expensive and will serve communities not designed or planned for transit, density or walkability. Park and Ride only helps a region so much. It's time to think about "punishing" suburbs by not throwing more dollars at them. Suburbs require much more funding than constrained and confined areas with proper infrastructure and planning in place, and so from a taxpayer's perspective it actually makes more sense to "spend taxpayer money" more wisely on the city, rather than the burb or the exurb.

Besides, Atlanta could have seen DC as a model with its suburbs sprouting up nicely around stations, but that just can't work in Atlanta as the TOD concept never took hold. You're stuck with stations like Perimeter/North Springs, Doraville, Chamblee, Brookhaven, even Buckhead. Even the Midtown, Arts Center, and North Ave stations are laughable as they occupy entire city blocks. Even downtown the stations are much larger than they need to be (I remember commenting on this and posting Bing Maps aerials years ago on this site, and low and behold Atlanta Magazine mentioned the same thing last month!).

Frankly mid-rise density should be encouraged in Midtown and criss crossing street cars put in. Make Midtown a real place in the South and you'll have all sorts of companies wanting to be there. Leave the suburbs as is. They can have their "good" public schools and houses with yards and no trains, etc, and that way the metro can attract you're upper middle class middle-aged families and you're young professionals/creative types.

I've said this before, but downtown needs to be focused on first. Then I think Buckhead is next. As much as I love Midtown, there is no high retail, and I personally think that is EPIC!!! Downtown already has an urban vibe that could easily be enhanced and made nightime attraction as well as daytime business. Sure it needs to be clean, but the urban potential that some of you want Midtown to have, is basically there in downtown.

[testarossa50]

Originally Posted by yangtze

increasing the millage rate is a horrible
idea, Atlanta has some of the highest property tax rate,
and this would make Buckhead a cashcow for Atlanta.

I tjink there should be a congestion tax instead,
like in London. Drivers from the suburbs
pay a fee to get in the city, and use that to
improve transportation.

A tax to go into the city wouldn't address the huge number of commuters who go from suburb to suburb, who probably outnumber any other type of commuter.

In my opinion, the best thing to do if you want to go down this route would be to put a toll booth just outside the perimeter on every major interstate. That way you get all the different commuters: city-suburb, suburb-city, and suburb-suburb. Everybody has to use or go across 285.

If someone happens to live along the same interstate corridor they work on (for example, living in Kennesaw and working in Marietta), and thus will miss the toll, well, then good for them. They made a wise life choice by living somewhat close to their job and now they're getting rewarded for it.

[Tuckerman]

Today's AJC has a number of interesting articles on the failed vote and on the post election possibilities. It makes for depressing reading if you are at all interested in transit. Some of you on this forum may be young enough to ride the Beltline before your death (presuming you lead an average length life for an American). Many of us will not. At best it is probably the 2030's before any vehicles move on that jogging and park trail.

If one is an optimist, the argument could be made that this current phase of political anti-tax, anti-government, anti-city, anti-transit, will pass and be replaced by the opposite. It has happened, to a degree before, although American politics generally just moves to the center and is a little less conservative.

In the meantime we just live with the metro area that we all enjoy and wish it had some of the amenities of other urban areas. It is a pleasant place to live even if it does take us a lot of time to get around. Resignation is not so bad.

[SteveD]

Originally Posted by Tuckerman

Today's AJC has a number of interesting articles on the failed vote and on the post election possibilities. It makes for depressing reading if you are at all interested in transit. Some of you on this forum may be young enough to ride the Beltline before your death (presuming you lead an average length life for an American). Many of us will not. At best it is probably the 2030's before any vehicles move on that jogging and park trail.

If one is an optimist, the argument could be made that this current phase of political anti-tax, anti-government, anti-city, anti-transit, will pass and be replaced by the opposite. It has happened, to a degree before, although American politics generally just moves to the center and is a little less conservative.

In the meantime we just live with the metro area that we all enjoy and wish it had some of the amenities of other urban areas. It is a pleasant place to live even if it does take us a lot of time to get around. Resignation is not so bad.

I'll be 50 next January. I see myself moving on from Atlanta in the next 5 to 10 years, as I transition from my current 50/60 hr work week down to something more like 25 to 30 hrs/wk. The no TSPLOST vote to me means the Atlanta I have now is pretty much the Atlanta I will leave in 5 to 10 years. I've been here since 1974, originally hailing from the Northeast (born in Philly).

[RudyJK]

Originally Posted by simms3_redux

I'm not sure why anyone is concerned about helping out the low density suburbs by providing them train service? What Atlanta needs is a series of street cars and light rail in the inner core and to hell with the "inserviceable" suburbs. People made their beds and they should sleep in them.

There are very few areas in Atlanta than can be developed densely and appropriately, and these are the areas that should be focused on. You can expand rail to the communities, office parks and subdivisions up north, but those expansions will be expensive and will serve communities not designed or planned for transit, density or walkability. Park and Ride only helps a region so much. It's time to think about "punishing" suburbs by not throwing more dollars at them. Suburbs require much more funding than constrained and confined areas with proper infrastructure and planning in place, and so from a taxpayer's perspective it actually makes more sense to "spend taxpayer money" more wisely on the city, rather than the burb or the exurb.

Besides, Atlanta could have seen DC as a model with its suburbs sprouting up nicely around stations, but that just can't work in Atlanta as the TOD concept never took hold. You're stuck with stations like Perimeter/North Springs, Doraville, Chamblee, Brookhaven, even Buckhead. Even the Midtown, Arts Center, and North Ave stations are laughable as they occupy entire city blocks. Even downtown the stations are much larger than they need to be (I remember commenting on this and posting Bing Maps aerials years ago on this site, and low and behold Atlanta Magazine mentioned the same thing last month!).

Frankly mid-rise density should be encouraged in Midtown and criss crossing street cars put in. Make Midtown a real place in the South and you'll have all sorts of companies wanting to be there. Leave the suburbs as is. They can have their "good" public schools and houses with yards and no trains, etc, and that way the metro can attract you're upper middle class middle-aged families and you're young professionals/creative types.

I'm not sure you will find much disagreement from the suburbs about this as well. That is basically what the voters indicated by rejecting TSplost so handily. They said, "Leave us out of it! What we really need is not a way to hook into Marta as much as a better way to cross counties east-west - say Marietta to Sandy Springs."

Besides showing absolute disdain and distrust for the political class that put this Frankenstein together, voters also said:

"We don't want this regionalism so much if it means that we all pay the one percent tax and here in Cobb County we get a couple of redone intersections, a new control tower and maybe some buses running from Arts Center to Cumberland. But what does Atlanta get? Marta tracks to Emory, a beltline project that has nothing to do with traffic congestion and everything to do with lining the pockets of developers and landowners, and a whole bunch of redone intersections. Oh and we are funding a bus system in Clayton that already folded once due to budgetary shortfalls, while our own bus system could surely use that money."

TSplost is now an interesting education about how not to cram all the cookies into the same jar, tell everyone how good they are, and then explain that this city gets half a cookie, this city gets two cookies, this county gets some crumbs, and by virtue of this mayor being such a good politician, this last city will receive the entire jar of cookies that are left over. Oh and by the way, the entire reason you were asked to collect the cookies and place them in the jar with everyone else's cookies - to relieve congestion - well, that won't really happen so much.

[scania]

Originally Posted by RudyJK

I'm not sure you will find much disagreement from the suburbs about this as well. That is basically what the voters indicated by rejecting TSplost so handily. They said, "Leave us out of it! What we really need is not a way to hook into Marta as much as a better way to cross counties east-west - say Marietta to Sandy Springs."

Besides showing absolute disdain and distrust for the political class that put this Frankenstein together, voters also said:

"We don't want this regionalism so much if it means that we all pay the one percent tax and here in Cobb County we get a couple of redone intersections, a new control tower and maybe some buses running from Arts Center to Cumberland. But what does Atlanta get? Marta tracks to Emory, a beltline project that has nothing to do with traffic congestion and everything to do with lining the pockets of developers and landowners, and a whole bunch of redone intersections. Oh and we are funding a bus system in Clayton that already folded once due to budgetary shortfalls, while our own bus system could surely use that money."

TSplost is now an interesting education about how not to cram all the cookies into the same jar, tell everyone how good they are, and then explain that this city gets half a cookie, this city gets two cookies, this county gets some crumbs, and by virtue of this mayor being such a good politician, this last city will receive the entire jar of cookies that are left over. Oh and by the way, the entire reason you were asked to collect the cookies and place them in the jar with everyone else's cookies - to relieve congestion - well, that won't really happen so much.

You are absolutely correct...and the nerve of some of these forumers want to charge a toll to people who live outside the perimeter. I've said this before, and I'll say it again, more than half of the midtown and buckhead restaurants would not survive if it wasn't for the support they get from the suburbs.

[simms3_redux]

The nerve of so many people to complain about tolls! It would cost a boatload more to build an East West highway connecting the northern suburbs than to build several criss crossing streetcars connecting multiple neighborhoods. You won't be able to build much more in the northern burbs if the highway is built because the planning up there has ensured most land is already built out at incredibly low density, whereas add more transit in town and the possibilities are pretty much endless and the jobs will come as has been proven in so many other cities.

Not only that, travel to the Northeast. If you're driving between cities or from the burbs into the cities you are paying much more expensive tolls than anything thought up down here. Even FL is covered in toll roads and is building more. It seems everywhere else people have realized that roads are more expensive than transit and so they have priced it accordingly and the people suck it up and pay for it if that's what they would rather have.

Furthermore, on top of all of this, the densest city in North America - New York City - is building a $5B subway line up 2nd Ave to be opened next year. Even those governing Manhattan and living in Manhattan, with endless transit options, believe more fixed-rail infrastructure is necessary to serve their GROWING population. If Manhattan needs more rail, obviously Atlanta does. If everywhere else tolls, why can't GA?

I have a safe and secure job here in Atlanta that I love that allows me to travel (I'll be in Boston today ), but we have offices in other major cities. I'll wait it out a bit and see what happens (Atlanta may find that it densifies as a result of TSPLOST not passing as the only options for people to live and not face terrible commutes will be in town), but I won't hold my breath. I'm in my 20s and I don't want a fun life in the city to pass me by. If it ain't happening here, I'll make sure I get to partake somewhere else, and sadly I know I'm not alone.

TSPLOST was basically Plan C, by the way. Far from perfect, but it would have done more good than bad to Atlanta's fledgling economy. The fact that people voted this down because it was a "jobs" bill rather than a "congestion relief" bill just tells me that people are so engrained in "principle" that they don't even care about big picture or about helping themselves and others if it means compromising on any one thing. I can't be around people who aren't willing to compromise. And the hypocrisy astounds me.

[simms3_redux]

Originally Posted by scania

You are absolutely correct...and the nerve of some of these forumers want to charge a toll to people who live outside the perimeter. I've said this before, and I'll say it again, more than half of the midtown and buckhead restaurants would not survive if it wasn't for the support they get from the suburbs.

Keep saying it. If the business from the suburbs was so good, all those restaurants would open out there. A restaurant is a business like any other that follows its customers. Taco Mac and Flying Biscuit and others have followed their customers out to the burbs. If the customers of those high end restaurants in Midtown/Buckhead were truly coming in from the burbs, you'd see more high end restaurants out there. That Avalon development might get some high end stuff, and we all know Ford Fry is opening a restaurant out there, but he is trying to become more mainstream (look at how many restaurants he is opening now!).

Intown Atlanta and the very inner ring burbs along the perimeter sustain intown Atlanta. CHerokee County does not sustain intown Atlanta. Neither does Forsyth, most of Cobb, most of Gwinnett, Clayton County surely does not, Henry, Spalding, Paulding, Rockdale, Newtown, Coweta, etc.

I don't think your average young professional eating out at ESS or the crowd at STK or the crowd at JCT or Top Flr are commuting in from South Forsyth. My God that's ridiculous. Many actually walk from home to those restaurants! Look at the crowds - they aren't suburban people even if they grew up in the burbs! And you can tell suburban people from non-suburban people! It's not that hard

[simms3_redux]

Besides, most good restaurants are about trying new things. It's pretty much fact at this point that those in the city are more up for trying new things than those choosing a cookie cutter life out in the burbs. It's the same concept as those in the city are usually more tolerant and accepting of new ideas than those in the burbs. Why would a creative chef risk his creativity on people who have a lower chance of accepting and appreciating it? Hence no good restaurants in the suburbs. Ha

[testarossa50]

To be fair, plenty of people from the burbs eat out in the city occasionally. Probably the reverse is a lot less true (I've never had a morsel of food from Cherokee County, to be sure). If I'm in the suburbs I'll probably eat something there, but I won't make a special trip. Unless you count Buford Highway as a suburb. Pleasant Hill Road is the big exception for me.

Some places are probably more sustained by suburbanites than others. Buckhead's dining scene probably gets a hefty number of people from the suburbs, while Decatur's seems to be almost all intown. Midtown is split, with places like South City Kitchen catering to suburbanites and intowners, while places like The Lawrence are almost all intown. Atlantic Station is probably like 75% suburban or more.

I'm not sure how that specifically relates to the question of charging people tolls.

[scania]

Originally Posted by simms3_redux

Keep saying it. If the business from the suburbs was so good, all those restaurants would open out there. A restaurant is a business like any other that follows its customers. Taco Mac and Flying Biscuit and others have followed their customers out to the burbs. If the customers of those high end restaurants in Midtown/Buckhead were truly coming in from the burbs, you'd see more high end restaurants out there. That Avalon development might get some high end stuff, and we all know Ford Fry is opening a restaurant out there, but he is trying to become more mainstream (look at how many restaurants he is opening now!).

Intown Atlanta and the very inner ring burbs along the perimeter sustain intown Atlanta. CHerokee County does not sustain intown Atlanta. Neither does Forsyth, most of Cobb, most of Gwinnett, Clayton County surely does not, Henry, Spalding, Paulding, Rockdale, Newtown, Coweta, etc.

I don't think your average young professional eating out at ESS or the crowd at STK or the crowd at JCT or Top Flr are commuting in from South Forsyth. My God that's ridiculous. Many actually walk from home to those restaurants! Look at the crowds - they aren't suburban people even if they grew up in the burbs! And you can tell suburban people from non-suburban people! It's not that hard

That's not true. I was at Top Flr the other day and while waiting in the bar area we met two couples(one from East Cobb, one from Johns Creek) they were between the ages of 28 to 35. I also love to socialize and I go to STK about once every two weeks, and typically and no not every time, we run into people tht are normally from the East Cobb, Roswell, Alpharetta, and Johns Creek. Most of these people are young professionals.