ATLANTA | Development Thread V

[sevensixtwo]

Originally Posted by delarosa

Yeah...isn't the municipal sales tax (not including MARTA) limited to 2% by state law?

We are talking about rewriting the laws.

Originally Posted by testarossa50

Really, getting another county to approve MARTA is the best thing that could happen. But expansion resulting from this would probably be limited.

I agree. Since this is the best thing, it should be in the final version of transit reform.

[delarosa]

Originally Posted by sevensixtwo

I don't see how a 2% municipal sales tax limit is relevant to a discussion of $0.05 or $0.03. That is a pretty small transaction if 5 cents pushes it over 2%. And even if 5 or 3 cents is too high, 2 cents certainly seems ok. Then twice as much money gets raised.

Ah...now I get it...this is a parody.

[Rail Claimore]

Originally Posted by testarossa50

Gwinnett is the real prize. Since MARTA goes all the way to its doorstep, there's a plausible argument that a 1% MARTA tax could (1) get them a bunch of bus routes and (2) finance a substantial extension of the Gold Line. But Gwinnett seems tricky, too: MARTA rail would still only penetrate a small chunk of the county.

Gwinnett will approve MARTA before any other county so long as any sort of deal involves an extension of the existing Gold Line up to Pleasant Hill Road and the Gwinnett Place area. The existing Blue Line could also be extended to serve southern Gwinnett and Snellville as a way to sweeten the deal.

[testarossa50]

Originally Posted by Rail Claimore

Gwinnett will approve MARTA before any other county so long as any sort of deal involves an extension of the existing Gold Line up to Pleasant Hill Road and the Gwinnett Place area. The existing Blue Line could also be extended to serve southern Gwinnett and Snellville as a way to sweeten the deal.

On the latter note, I've always thought the biggest slam-dunk of a MARTA expansion was to Stone Mountain. Unlike many of the ideas floating around currently (such as the I-20 corridor line), this one was planned for in the original design of the system, and would be pretty graceful to implement, rather than requiring miles of interstate to be rebuilt or destroying scores of houses.

Avondale Station is designed to be an interchange station between a line to Indian Creek and a line to Stone Mountain; hence the extra platforms. CSX has a super-wide ROW through the area, often about 200 feet wide. It's gotta be one of the best rights-of-way in the whole metro. US 78 was always planned to connect into central Atlanta, but the project never happened; for that reason, getting to Downtown or Midtown from that corridor remains awkward and difficult. This means transit could be the quickest way downtown--a rare opportunity. Clarkston is probably among the densest suburbs in the whole metro, with several tracts denser than Inman Park. It would also have an obvious use serving tourists going to see the big rock, as well--world class cities make their best tourist attractions available on public transit. Also, it would force the Green Line to go all the way to Decatur station, which would be a big upgrade for anyone who takes transit to or from Decatur.

But there seems to be exactly zero momentum or will to get such a line going. So I've more or less given up. Engineering the line so that it could be extended seamlessly into Gwinnett would be tricky--I'll grant that.

[NYbyWAYofGA]

Originally Posted by tdawg

I am investigating a transfer. I love this city for what it could be, but it's never going to get there fast enough for me.

I had the very same thoughts in 1999. I did, in fact, leave for New York. I really hope metro Atlanta gets its act together and realizes that without superior public transportation, the area will choke to death on its own (former) success.

Me too and I left around 2000. I have been in New York, on and off, for about 12 years in between college. I used to be so homesick for Atlanta and my home state of Georgia. I am a southerner to the bone, but I tell you...it gets sweeter and sweeter the longer I stay here in the Northeast. Being on the outside looking in, I know I made the right decision for my own personal happiness. I am really rooting for Atlanta and I truly hope that the region gets its' "ish" together and stop resting on its' MARTA laurels while other cities like Dallas and Houston play catch up...smdh.

[Tuckerman]

Speaking of other planned lines e.g. Northlake, Stn Mnt etc; what is left now re: Clifton Rd Corridor; the "Brain train", and the beloved "Beltline"?

[atlantaguy]

^The Beltline will still, happen - that's a done deal. The transit portion just won't happen as fast as it would have with TSPLOST. I'm afraid Clifton and the BrainTrain are probably dead in the water now.

[testarossa50]

I really now just wish that when Obama had done the stimulus and put $10 billion toward high speed rail he had just dedicated it to urban mass transit instead. Give the money to the 25 largest metros in proportion to their population. It would have been much better spent, imo.

[ChadK]

Originally Posted by NYbyWAYofGA

Me too and I left around 2000. I have been in New York, on and off, for about 12 years in between college. I used to be so homesick for Atlanta and my home state of Georgia. I am a southerner to the bone, but I tell you...it gets sweeter and sweeter the longer I stay here in the Northeast. Being on the outside looking in, I know I made the right decision for my own personal happiness. I am really rooting for Atlanta and I truly hope that the region gets its' "ish" together and stop resting on its' MARTA laurels while other cities like Dallas and Houston play catch up...smdh.

I'm from Philly so I've spent a lot of time in larger cities like New York, DC, of course Philly, etc... I suppose I took the amenities for granted since it was all I knew.

I do love Atlanta and enjoy watching it grow. I guess the recent failing was just a wake up call for how different the mindset here truly is.

On that note... I think the goal should be for Marta heavy rail to extend up the center of both 75 and 85 all the way to KSU and Mall of GA respectively (just like the Buckhead stretch of 400). Wouldn't that be the cleanest and easiest way to build rail (on a flat, solid surface rather than clearing land for a new line)?

As demand grows, stations much like Buckhead's Peachtree Station could be built at bridge sites. Let each area deal with how they want to connect to the station. Light rail, bus, or just let people get there on their own.

Money and reality are obviously not included in my plan. Just putting out my wish list as an observer with admittedly zero knowledge of city planning or construction.

[ChrisInmanPark]

Does anyone know why MARTA expansion came to screeching halt in 2000 with the last stations on the Red Line completed?

Since MARTA construction began in the late 70s there as been a new station opening every couple of years. But nothing for 12 years now!

I know that MARTA can't expand outside Fulton and Dekalb counties, but we should have seen expansion further up 400. Also there could have been expansions in Dekalb county with the Clifton Corridor or down I-20.

[Terminus]

I think that in the coming months we will see the City of Atlanta come out with a bond referendum backed by a milage rate increased to fund several transportation projects that would have received TSPLOST dollars. Raising the sales tax rate is most likely not an option at this time, even in the city proper, as it is seen as a regressive tax. Property tax issues don't have this issue because of the homestead exemption.

You may recall that the City issued similar Quality of Life Bonds in the early 2000s, which I believe generated $125 million for projects. I suspect this new bond will be higher and longer term, so the return will be bigger.

It will, of course, be subject to voter approval.

[Kenn]

Perhaps if the transportation post mortum is over we can move back to construction. Please see the following link which mentions construction on the College Football Hall of Fame starting in approximately two months. Does anyone have any credible information? Since the new management team came in there has been silence.

http://articles.southbendtribune.com/201...college-football-hall-fame-in-south-bend

[Slog]

Originally Posted by Kenn

Perhaps if the transportation post mortum is over we can move back to construction. Please see the following link which mentions construction on the College Football Hall of Fame starting in approximately two months. Does anyone have any credible information? Since the new management team came in there has been silence.

http://articles.southbendtribune.com/201...college-football-hall-fame-in-south-bend

I live right next to the site and I haven't heard anything. Last I heard was a delivery of late 2014.

[simms3_redux]

I'm not sure why anyone is concerned about helping out the low density suburbs by providing them train service? What Atlanta needs is a series of street cars and light rail in the inner core and to hell with the "inserviceable" suburbs. People made their beds and they should sleep in them.

There are very few areas in Atlanta than can be developed densely and appropriately, and these are the areas that should be focused on. You can expand rail to the communities, office parks and subdivisions up north, but those expansions will be expensive and will serve communities not designed or planned for transit, density or walkability. Park and Ride only helps a region so much. It's time to think about "punishing" suburbs by not throwing more dollars at them. Suburbs require much more funding than constrained and confined areas with proper infrastructure and planning in place, and so from a taxpayer's perspective it actually makes more sense to "spend taxpayer money" more wisely on the city, rather than the burb or the exurb.

Besides, Atlanta could have seen DC as a model with its suburbs sprouting up nicely around stations, but that just can't work in Atlanta as the TOD concept never took hold. You're stuck with stations like Perimeter/North Springs, Doraville, Chamblee, Brookhaven, even Buckhead. Even the Midtown, Arts Center, and North Ave stations are laughable as they occupy entire city blocks. Even downtown the stations are much larger than they need to be (I remember commenting on this and posting Bing Maps aerials years ago on this site, and low and behold Atlanta Magazine mentioned the same thing last month!).

Frankly mid-rise density should be encouraged in Midtown and criss crossing street cars put in. Make Midtown a real place in the South and you'll have all sorts of companies wanting to be there. Leave the suburbs as is. They can have their "good" public schools and houses with yards and no trains, etc, and that way the metro can attract you're upper middle class middle-aged families and you're young professionals/creative types.

[simms3_redux]

We have done suburbs better than anyone else. We have expanded as far as a metro can. It is time to put all focus on 20 square miles in the city and leave the rest to do as it pleases.

[NYbyWAYofGA]

Originally Posted by simms3_redux

I'm not sure why anyone is concerned about helping out the low density suburbs by providing them train service? What Atlanta needs is a series of street cars and light rail in the inner core and to hell with the "inserviceable" suburbs. People made their beds and they should sleep in them.

There are very few areas in Atlanta than can be developed densely and appropriately, and these are the areas that should be focused on. You can expand rail to the communities, office parks and subdivisions up north, but those expansions will be expensive and will serve communities not designed or planned for transit, density or walkability. Park and Ride only helps a region so much. It's time to think about "punishing" suburbs by not throwing more dollars at them. Suburbs require much more funding than constrained and confined areas with proper infrastructure and planning in place, and so from a taxpayer's perspective it actually makes more sense to "spend taxpayer money" more wisely on the city, rather than the burb or the exurb.

Besides, Atlanta could have seen DC as a model with its suburbs sprouting up nicely around stations, but that just can't work in Atlanta as the TOD concept never took hold. You're stuck with stations like Perimeter/North Springs, Doraville, Chamblee, Brookhaven, even Buckhead. Even the Midtown, Arts Center, and North Ave stations are laughable as they occupy entire city blocks. Even downtown the stations are much larger than they need to be (I remember commenting on this and posting Bing Maps aerials years ago on this site, and low and behold Atlanta Magazine mentioned the same thing last month!).

Frankly mid-rise density should be encouraged in Midtown and criss crossing street cars put in. Make Midtown a real place in the South and you'll have all sorts of companies wanting to be there. Leave the suburbs as is. They can have their "good" public schools and houses with yards and no trains, etc, and that way the metro can attract you're upper middle class middle-aged families and you're young professionals/creative types.

I am in absolute agreement with you on this! Also, lets not leave out Downtown (I guess that goes without saying, huh).

[ATLiteRail]

Having relocated to Charlotte when the first light rail projects for Atlanta were being dismissed by then Gov. Perdue and his bunch of state legislators I was not sure I had made the right choice. Atlanta was home and I still miss it but after this latest defeat I know I made the right decision. Charlotte and North Carolina in general are looking at overtaking Georgia and Atlanta in the next ten years in just about every catagory and this show of ignorance by the backward voters of Georgia will make you just about the equals of both Alabama and Mississippi. What a shame for Atlanta !!

[Zanarkand A East]

Originally Posted by simms3_redux

I'm not sure why anyone is concerned about helping out the low density suburbs by providing them train service? What Atlanta needs is a series of street cars and light rail in the inner core and to hell with the "inserviceable" suburbs. People made their beds and they should sleep in them.

There are very few areas in Atlanta than can be developed densely and appropriately, and these are the areas that should be focused on. You can expand rail to the communities, office parks and subdivisions up north, but those expansions will be expensive and will serve communities not designed or planned for transit, density or walkability. Park and Ride only helps a region so much. It's time to think about "punishing" suburbs by not throwing more dollars at them. Suburbs require much more funding than constrained and confined areas with proper infrastructure and planning in place, and so from a taxpayer's perspective it actually makes more sense to "spend taxpayer money" more wisely on the city, rather than the burb or the exurb.

Besides, Atlanta could have seen DC as a model with its suburbs sprouting up nicely around stations, but that just can't work in Atlanta as the TOD concept never took hold. You're stuck with stations like Perimeter/North Springs, Doraville, Chamblee, Brookhaven, even Buckhead. Even the Midtown, Arts Center, and North Ave stations are laughable as they occupy entire city blocks. Even downtown the stations are much larger than they need to be (I remember commenting on this and posting Bing Maps aerials years ago on this site, and low and behold Atlanta Magazine mentioned the same thing last month!).

Frankly mid-rise density should be encouraged in Midtown and criss crossing street cars put in. Make Midtown a real place in the South and you'll have all sorts of companies wanting to be there. Leave the suburbs as is. They can have their "good" public schools and houses with yards and no trains, etc, and that way the metro can attract you're upper middle class middle-aged families and you're young professionals/creative types.

This is ingenious.

[TarHeelJ]

Originally Posted by ATLiteRail

Having relocated to Charlotte when the first light rail projects for Atlanta were being dismissed by then Gov. Perdue and his bunch of state legislators I was not sure I had made the right choice. Atlanta was home and I still miss it but after this latest defeat I know I made the right decision. Charlotte and North Carolina in general are looking at overtaking Georgia and Atlanta in the next ten years in just about every catagory and this show of ignorance by the backward voters of Georgia will make you just about the equals of both Alabama and Mississippi. What a shame for Atlanta !!

Right...you actually think that one little light rail line in Charlotte is going to "overtake" Atlanta in the next ten years? You might want to look into all of the problems they are having in Charlotte with transit funding before you throw stones. It's not just Atlanta/Georgia.

I agree that this is a blow for Atlanta, but it certainly doesn't raise Charlotte's sprawling profile.

[TarHeelJ]

Originally Posted by Terminus

I think that in the coming months we will see the City of Atlanta come out with a bond referendum backed by a milage rate increased to fund several transportation projects that would have received TSPLOST dollars. Raising the sales tax rate is most likely not an option at this time, even in the city proper, as it is seen as a regressive tax. Property tax issues don't have this issue because of the homestead exemption.

You may recall that the City issued similar Quality of Life Bonds in the early 2000s, which I believe generated $125 million for projects. I suspect this new bond will be higher and longer term, so the return will be bigger.

It will, of course, be subject to voter approval.

I hope you're right...it's good to see some postitive posts after such a resounding defeat.