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  #2501  
Old Posted Jul 25, 2012, 6:28 PM
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Here is what i find funny...

When this was originally announced and myself, along with others, spoke out against it, those who supported Vision and there study responded to me with the following:

Why are you so worried, even if approved they will not be torn down for at least another 15 years.

Look at all the options they are presenting, full removal is only the most extreme of the bunch....

And guess what is happening now, full removal asap.....

There was no compromise, no tearing down one and keeping the other, no terminating them at Main, no 15 year phased program...

Honestly, even if you do support tearing them down, please acknowledge that this entire process of "options" and "deciding what to do" was nothing more than an expensive dog and pony show, their fate and timeline was decided long before any study was commissioned. Just please acknowledge that, because it is painfully obvious.
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  #2502  
Old Posted Jul 25, 2012, 6:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Porfiry View Post
Pulling the levers to pull ahead projects either in response to or in anticipation of developer interest is what Vision politicians do.
Fixed that for you.
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  #2503  
Old Posted Jul 25, 2012, 6:46 PM
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  #2504  
Old Posted Jul 25, 2012, 6:50 PM
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The funny thing is I have been to Zurich, Amsterdam, and Stockholm and they all have far better freeway networks than Vancouver does, with closer access to downtown than we have. And when I was in Stockholm, they were building more, and actually highways in Sweden were amazing in general. The E4 was really fantastic.
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  #2505  
Old Posted Jul 25, 2012, 7:18 PM
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  #2506  
Old Posted Jul 25, 2012, 7:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Metro-One View Post
When this was originally announced and myself, along with others, spoke out against it, those who supported Vision and there study responded to me with the following...
I was one of the those who didn't see a need to panic because I believed it was a long range plan - but it's certainly moving a lot faster than I expected it to. I don't have a really entrenched position one way or the other, but it seems wasteful to me to tear them down before they've reached end-of-life.

I don't really think there's going to be the chaos that the fear mongers are proclaiming. The viaducts are bounded on both ends by a city street grid - that grid is where the bottlenecks are, not the viaducts. It's just going to mean a few more minutes of travel time and congestion on different streets than before. People will get used to it soon enough. Traffic is a much more fluid and dynamic beast than most people give it credit for.

FWIW, I don't figure myself as a particularly strong Vision supporter, having voted for both Vision and non-Vision council members during the last election.
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  #2507  
Old Posted Jul 25, 2012, 7:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Hed Kandi View Post
You forgot to mention that these freeway systems are all well outside of the downtown core.
Not directly in the downtown cores, but much closer than what Vancouver has (the #1). So Vancouver's no highways anywhere in the city proper policy is extreme even by utopian European standards...

And actually Stockholm does have a freeway directly in the downtown core.

Amsterdam has a ring of highways within 2km of the downtown core.

Zurich within 500 meters.
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  #2508  
Old Posted Jul 25, 2012, 7:43 PM
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The news stories mention a 'super-street' - four lanes each way? So you'll have a eight lane highway cutting off the south portion from Chinatown? Doesn't it seem like you'll replace the dead zone under the via duct with a deadzone around a highway because who'd want to live beside that?
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  #2509  
Old Posted Jul 25, 2012, 7:48 PM
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  #2510  
Old Posted Jul 25, 2012, 7:53 PM
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I think you are confused

I've been to Stockholm a few times and Norrmalm and Gamla Stan are very much the city centre and well served by a limited access roadway.

That being said traffic in Stockholm is still terrible.
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  #2511  
Old Posted Jul 25, 2012, 7:59 PM
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When it comes to the viaducts removal I'm skeptical because the biggest winner will be the developer and current land owners with tax payers bearing the majority (if not all) the costs and probably all of the risks.

The argument that they are "part of an old abandoned freeway plan" is meaningless to me. The viaducts were built for one reason: to move people (in cars) in and out of the downtown. The road had to be in the air because there was a large industrial sector below and it allowed for the easiest way to move cars in and out. The viaducts still serve their intended purpose, to move cars in and out of the dt core. Granted the land use underneath is substantially changed but keeping cars flowing seems better than having them rerouted (at great expense) to surface streets littered with traffic lights.

If removing remnants of an abandoned freeway plan is such a driving motivation, then when can we expect the Granville St bridge and associated southern viaducts to be removed? (I realize the northern 'circles' are on their way out) These structures were also part of a highway plan that fizzled yet they bridge does serve a purpose and replacing it would be scoffed at immediately (I would be one of those scoffers )

I think the city and developers have purposely dragged their heals on this issue for much longer than the current debate. That land that is now suddenly earmarked for 'social housing' (right, we know how the City bailed on Oly Village percentages of social housing) and a park, to benefit the rest of us who will never afford the fancy condos that will also be built. If so, why has the land been left in its current deplorable state for so long? Indy race has been gone for years and years, High profile developments have been built on the periphery (City Gate, Tinseltown area, GM place/Costco area) yet the waterfront property, prime property sits vacant because of 2 roadways in the air?

I think the legacy of False Creek industrialization haunts this site (aka contaminated soil) and that this may be the real reason it sits largely abandoned. What perfect reason to re-mediate the soil then by removing the viaducts, creating a huge demolition project only to reveal what many people already know...the ground is toxic.

The irony is that the viaducts are cited as cutting off parts of Vancouver from each other. Won't the replacement "road" do exactly that? I can walk under the viaducts without being hit by a car and if development occurs that incorporates the design and space of the viaducts (as discussed in this group) then the ghetto that exists could be replaced with a much more pleasant atmosphere. What cuts off parts of downtown is a section of waterfront that has been left to waste for decades, 2 fast-paced one way surface streets, oh and a part of the city that has been left to waste socially and economically for over 50years (Chinatown and downtown east side). No one walks from false creek to main and Hastings for much more dire reasons than a viaduct over their head.

Maybe the city should rip up the asphalt, plant some grass, nice plants, build some nodes of interest and make the whole area a large park today, and then see about working for greater change involving a developer, later. The panic of a quick decision, that we need to replace this blight with condo towers and surface streets is nonsense, since the lot has been like this for a long time already. The city can work with developers on the north periphery to make condos and social housing relaties, perhaps infill from the BC Pavilion east as a starting point. There is room to encourage change and development in ithe area without having to re-define the transportation infrastructure all for a developers profits.
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  #2512  
Old Posted Jul 25, 2012, 8:37 PM
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I'm confused by the proposal right now. When you start reading it, city staff mention that it will open up development to the area. They then also show how most of the land is owned by Concord Pacific in and around there.

You then read further and the city staff then say all the new open land will and should pretty much by parkland. That includes about 75% of the land currently owned by Concord Pacific.

How can they in 1 breath say it will be good for development then in the next breath say "Hey it should all be park... look how GREEN and how environmentally friendly it will be! Look parks not cars!!!" I'm sure Concord Pacific would be completely on board with giving all their prime realestate to the city as park land. That will definately be happening.

Honestly though I think if they were removed, the car traffic would not be that bad as long as they more logically adjusted the streets. It's a bit mishmash right now around there anyway trying to figure out how to get from point A to point B. I do think trucks up Georgia @ 5%+ grade is a bit daft though.

Is there really a lot of truck traffic in downtown Vancouver though besides delivery trucks? I don't actually know. I know most of the truck companies if not all around the Mainstreet area have moved out to Surrey now. Also a lot of the port traffic is being diverted from Vancouver to Delta/Surrey. In 10-15 years I'd be surprised if there is actually much industry in the way of heavy transportation in Vancouver. Even a lot of cargo at YVR is starting to run out of Abbotsford.

*shrug*

Either way it will never happen.

Last edited by GMasterAres; Jul 25, 2012 at 9:05 PM.
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  #2513  
Old Posted Jul 25, 2012, 9:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Porfiry View Post
I made no claim that there was ever an imminent commitment expressed, and I don't think there yet is one. I'm simply refuting your claim that this came out of thin air. There's a clear thread of interest going back years. Pulling the levers to pull ahead projects either in response to or in anticipation of public interest is what politicians do.
Heh. Well, I suppose perhaps we're dealing with different definitions of "interest" then.

I think my original point stands.
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  #2514  
Old Posted Jul 25, 2012, 9:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Metro-One View Post
Not directly in the downtown cores, but much closer than what Vancouver has (the #1). So Vancouver's no highways anywhere in the city proper policy is extreme even by utopian European standards...

And actually Stockholm does have a freeway directly in the downtown core.

Amsterdam has a ring of highways within 2km of the downtown core.

Zurich within 500 meters.
but that's an incomplete comparison. do most people drive to commute in those european cities?

How much is parking in the central cores, versus vancouver? fuel?

IIRC, stockholm also has a congestion fee levied on car traffic.
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  #2515  
Old Posted Jul 25, 2012, 9:39 PM
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Originally Posted by cornholio View Post
Do you live in Vancouver (metro)?
When have you last lived in Vancouver (metro)?
Have you ever lived in Vancouver (metro)?

These viaducts are important pieces of infrastructure and as such are there to be used and to improve mobility for the public, not to be works of art. There is zero justification for this.
Firstly, I have lived in Vancouver all my life, and currently live two blocks away from the Viaducts in Strathcona. The Viaducts are an important piece of infrastructure, but they offer little benefit that could not be offered by at-grade roads. If the viaducts were more than a few blocks long, I could see the sense in anti-removal side... but come on! all that concrete is for very little.

Zero justification? Get your head out of you ass. Just because you have an opinion, does not make the other side invalid. And you and others harping on about how Robertson and Meggs are full of shit in regards to the Malkin Connector need to provide something more than tin-hat speculation.
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  #2516  
Old Posted Jul 25, 2012, 9:43 PM
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Originally Posted by jhausner View Post
I'm confused by the proposal right now. When you start reading it, city staff mention that it will open up development to the area.
They are talking more about the land between Quebec and Gore, which is owned by the city. The claim is that selling this land will just about pay for the project.
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  #2517  
Old Posted Jul 25, 2012, 10:05 PM
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Originally Posted by mezzanine View Post
but that's an incomplete comparison. do most people drive to commute in those european cities?

How much is parking in the central cores, versus vancouver? fuel?

IIRC, stockholm also has a congestion fee levied on car traffic.
And the exact same blanket argument can be used when Vision uses other elevated roadways being torn down in other cities, or the use of bike lanes in other cities.

At least try and give some specifics.

That said, i agree that any new expressway coming close to downtown Vancouver should be a tolled roadway with exemptions for commercial traffic.

If memory serves me correctly though the highways in Stockholm are toll free.
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  #2518  
Old Posted Jul 25, 2012, 10:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Metro-One View Post
And the exact same blanket argument can be used when Vision uses other elevated roadways being torn down in other cities, or the use of bike lanes in other cities.

At least try and give some specifics.

That said, i agree that any new expressway coming close to downtown Vancouver should be a tolled roadway with exemptions for commercial traffic.

If memory serves me correctly though the highways in Stockholm are toll free.
The gist of what I was saying is that there are important counter balances to personal driving in those european examples i've raised. Stockholm etc may have highways close to the core, but there is a lot of things that also discourage driving for commuting, unlike vancouver and the viaducts aside from the carbon tax.

Specifics?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_congestion_tax


Gas prices: http://www.drive-alive.co.uk/fuel_prices_europe.html

WRT road pricing, i agree with you on this, but IMO it would be easier politcally to tear down the viaducts than to put a toll on them.
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  #2519  
Old Posted Jul 25, 2012, 10:36 PM
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And that has been my point all along, yes I encourage traffic calming and a focus on pedestrian activity on local streets, but in Europe and Asia when doing so they also still provide free flow arteries for the heavier and through traffic.

Vancouver is not doing this, they are only doing half of it, and this is where they are misguided.

The same way Europe and Asia seem to be building countless new bridges in urban areas yet Vancouver has a goofy no more road lanes into the city proper, despite being surrounded by water on 3 sides.
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  #2520  
Old Posted Jul 25, 2012, 10:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Metro-One View Post
And that has been my point all along, yes I encourage traffic calming and a focus on pedestrian activity on local streets, but in Europe and Asia when doing so they also still provide free flow arteries for the heavier and through traffic.

Vancouver is not doing this, they are only doing half of it, and this is where they are misguided.

The same way Europe and Asia seem to be building countless new bridges in urban areas yet Vancouver has a goofy no more road lanes into the city proper, despite being surrounded by water on 3 sides.
but i still think your arguement is missing context. compared to north america, i think you and i can agree that operating and parking a car is much more expensive in europe and japan, with their built forms encouraging non-car travel. an elevated roadway there will have different outcomes that one in north america.

I cannot think of a non-tolled newly built roadway in north america that does not congest in a short period of time.
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