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  #1441  
Old Posted Jul 24, 2012, 7:11 PM
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Austinlee Austinlee is offline
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Originally Posted by gallacus View Post
Weighing two redevelopment options for the same parcel of Downtown land
Either the historic building will be saved and there will be no high-rise, or it will be torn down and the skyscraper will be built

July 18th, 2012
By Charles Rosenblum / Pittsburgh City Paper

http://www.pghcitypaper.com/pittsburgh/w...cel-of-downtown-land/Content?oid=1544499

I really think either option would be fine. I'd like to see a "super block" with two massive towers going up together (PNC Tower) but either way; Like the articles author said, it's nice that the developer put up a couple of different options.
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  #1442  
Old Posted Jul 24, 2012, 7:34 PM
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Ever since this project became known, I've often wondered why they couldn't just add floors on top of this building. I guess the early 1900s construction would not be able to support another 20 stories or so of sleek modern space...?
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  #1443  
Old Posted Jul 24, 2012, 8:17 PM
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Better shape as far as residential stock right along the relatively short stretch of Grandview, yes. Other than that though, there's never really been much else up there
But compared to a place like Uptown, with much better road access to Downtown, just being relatively stable still makes Mt Washington the winner.

All this is pointing out is that relative road access doesn't really do much to explain how neighborhoods have fared in Pittsburgh over recent decades. And I honestly thinking you are exaggerating how difficult it is to get to Mt Washington by road--I think the most one could say is that it functions like it is a bit farther from Downtown than you would think by looking at it as the crow flies.

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If it was a sure thing, or even something which had great potential in Pittsburgh, major hotel chains would be jumping at the chance to build in such a spectacular location.
This is where understanding that Pittsburgh still has an overabundance of "spectacular locations" with "great potential" available for development is quite important. There is a practical limit to how many projects are going to happen in any given time period, and so the fact that a given location hasn't yet been developed doesn't necessarily mean there is something fundamentally wrong with that location.
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  #1444  
Old Posted Jul 24, 2012, 8:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Jonboy1983 View Post
Ever since this project became known, I've often wondered why they couldn't just add floors on top of this building. I guess the early 1900s construction would not be able to support another 20 stories or so of sleek modern space...?
My guess is they just didn't want to add any cost to their tower project. There have been too many other successful versions of what you are talking about to make me think it is likely they looked at the possibility in good faith but found an insurmountable engineering issue in this particular case.
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  #1445  
Old Posted Jul 24, 2012, 9:14 PM
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This was in Sunday's Tribune-Review:

Buncher’s plan will only weaken the Strip

"Let’s not.

That’s a useful two-word assessment of the Buncher Co.’s plan for a riverside development adjacent to the Strip District.

Let’s not make $50 million in public financing assistance available for a huge private project that pays scant attention to a city-sponsored master-planning process for that area.

Let’s not allow this $400 million project to go forward with public support when it makes almost no provisions for any transportation other than automobiles.

And above all, let’s not grant public financial support, or make changes in the city’s zoning laws based on an urban planning proposal as vague, as uninspired, as 1960s-ish (think East Liberty), and just plain lacking in quality as that presented to the city by the Buncher Co.

To date, much of the public debate about the Strip District plan — which Buncher calls Riverfront Landing — has centered around Buncher’s intention to demolish more than a third of the historic Produce Terminal in the Strip and turn the rest into trendy retail.

But the neglected element in all the public dialogue so far is that the plans presented by Buncher are almost unbelievably unimaginative and are just plain weak.

..."

http://triblive.com/aande/architecture/2...ldings-development-plans-public-planning
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  #1446  
Old Posted Jul 24, 2012, 9:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Jonboy1983 View Post
Ever since this project became known, I've often wondered why they couldn't just add floors on top of this building. I guess the early 1900s construction would not be able to support another 20 stories or so of sleek modern space...?
The historical preservation only extends to the outside of the structure. They could totally gut the inside (much like the old "lord and taylor bank building") and build the skyscraper from the fondation. Leaving the original structure hugging the new high rise. They have done this in other cities. But the cost could be too much for that option to be on the table.
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  #1447  
Old Posted Jul 24, 2012, 9:25 PM
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Is there any possibility of the Public Market occupying the entire Produce Terminal at some point? By destroying a third of the terminal building and replacing the rest with "trendy retail," it seems as tho this will pretty much destroy the public market. I think for that, I am pretty much against this project...
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  #1448  
Old Posted Jul 24, 2012, 10:42 PM
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Originally Posted by chucka View Post
This was in Sunday's Tribune-Review:

Buncher’s plan will only weaken the Strip

"Let’s not.

That’s a useful two-word assessment of the Buncher Co.’s plan for a riverside development adjacent to the Strip District.

Let’s not make $50 million in public financing assistance available for a huge private project that pays scant attention to a city-sponsored master-planning process for that area.

Let’s not allow this $400 million project to go forward with public support when it makes almost no provisions for any transportation other than automobiles.

And above all, let’s not grant public financial support, or make changes in the city’s zoning laws based on an urban planning proposal as vague, as uninspired, as 1960s-ish (think East Liberty), and just plain lacking in quality as that presented to the city by the Buncher Co.

To date, much of the public debate about the Strip District plan — which Buncher calls Riverfront Landing — has centered around Buncher’s intention to demolish more than a third of the historic Produce Terminal in the Strip and turn the rest into trendy retail.

But the neglected element in all the public dialogue so far is that the plans presented by Buncher are almost unbelievably unimaginative and are just plain weak.

..."

http://triblive.com/aande/architecture/2...ldings-development-plans-public-planning
Ok so the alternative is "let's park!"

Buncher doesn't really care, they make money whether it gets developed or not.

I would be very happy if Buncher made a more architecturally interesting proposal, but the idea that the city should kill the project is just cutting of your hand to spite your face.
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  #1449  
Old Posted Jul 24, 2012, 10:49 PM
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Originally Posted by markson33 View Post
Ok so the alternative is "let's park!"

Buncher doesn't really care, they make money whether it gets developed or not.

I would be very happy if Buncher made a more architecturally interesting proposal, but the idea that the city should kill the project is just cutting of your hand to spite your face.
How about not giving them $50M in TIF funding for a project that has a lot of glaring holes?

Make the necessary improvements (including a provision that the development cannot be called "Riverfront Landing" ), and then maybe the public can lend a hand with the financing part of it.
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  #1450  
Old Posted Jul 24, 2012, 11:05 PM
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The point is that Buncher doesn't need to negotiate. If the TIF doesn't go through they can just happily collect money from parking cars. Buncher doesn't sell property either, so it would most likely be a parking lot indefinitely unless and until the city caves.

Don't misunderstand me, Bunchers proposal is not terribly inspiring and I would love to see them improve it. That is a phenominal property and deserves a "transformative" developmet. I just don't think it's in the cities best interest, or the river life task forces best interest to kill the project because they don't like it.

I do think that the city should push Buncher as far as they can without killing the project. Someone needs to set up a design competition and get Buncher to sign on.
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  #1451  
Old Posted Jul 24, 2012, 11:17 PM
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^ Well, if they want a decent relationship with the city, which is in their best interest going forward, they do have to negotiate.

I think this is part of the process in trying to influence improvements with the proposal. And I'm surprised (and skeptical) that a company like Buncher even has any interest in undertaking an urban redevelopment project like this...
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  #1452  
Old Posted Jul 25, 2012, 1:13 AM
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Reading that editorial was the first time I've felt like standing up and cheering after a Trib article.
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  #1453  
Old Posted Jul 25, 2012, 1:45 AM
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^ Yeah, the Trib of all papers talking about public amenities, sound planning and development, pedestrians... transit even! Unbelievable, bizzaro world!
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  #1454  
Old Posted Jul 25, 2012, 2:42 AM
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The Trib had a nice editorial last week about how the lack of sound urban planning along the Parkway West has made it the clusterf#*k that it is... which wastes time and money for everyone who has to travel or do business there.
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  #1455  
Old Posted Jul 25, 2012, 9:43 AM
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Give me a break, guys. While I certainly agree that the Buncher proposal isn't the most incredible project I can think of for that enormous swath of parking lots, it's a hell of a lot better than it STAYING parking lots for perpetuity. I'm all in favor of negotiating with Buncher for as much as possible, but in the end, I think the end result will certainly deserve TIF funding. And let's face it, TIF funding is going to be needed for just about ANY project in that area due to the infrastructure costs involved.

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  #1456  
Old Posted Jul 25, 2012, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Jonboy1983 View Post
Is there any possibility of the Public Market occupying the entire Produce Terminal at some point? By destroying a third of the terminal building and replacing the rest with "trendy retail," it seems as tho this will pretty much destroy the public market. I think for that, I am pretty much against this project...
That would be a huge public market. I suppose it is conceivable that could happen eventually, but I doubt it would be likely any time soon, and I don't see why a public market that was merely very large would be "destroying" it.
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  #1457  
Old Posted Jul 25, 2012, 11:09 AM
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That editorial was ridiculous in many ways (I particularly liked how they claimed it would take 20-30 minutes to walk back and forth from the river--a round trip from Penn would be less than 1/2 mile).

That said, making sure the development is consistent with the ongoing master-planning, including transportation planning, for that area is fine.

Last edited by BrianTH; Jul 25, 2012 at 11:23 AM.
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  #1458  
Old Posted Jul 25, 2012, 2:03 PM
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They may have exaggerated walk times, but their main criticisms about the project are 100% dead on.
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  #1459  
Old Posted Jul 25, 2012, 4:35 PM
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Buncher's plan is a sea of ugliness IMO. Eventually something good will happen there. Let's not force it folks.
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  #1460  
Old Posted Jul 25, 2012, 4:48 PM
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But compared to a place like Uptown, with much better road access to Downtown, just being relatively stable still makes Mt Washington the winner.

All this is pointing out is that relative road access doesn't really do much to explain how neighborhoods have fared in Pittsburgh over recent decades. And I honestly thinking you are exaggerating how difficult it is to get to Mt Washington by road--I think the most one could say is that it functions like it is a bit farther from Downtown than you would think by looking at it as the crow flies.

This is where understanding that Pittsburgh still has an overabundance of "spectacular locations" with "great potential" available for development is quite important. There is a practical limit to how many projects are going to happen in any given time period, and so the fact that a given location hasn't yet been developed doesn't necessarily mean there is something fundamentally wrong with that location.
Yet, Uptown is seeing more investment currently...

I'm not talking about road access in general though. I'm talking about it in terms of how potential financiers of a major hotel project are looking at it. I don't think I'm exaggerating the lack of access to Mt. Washington in terms of where to site a major hotel. For someone who lives in Pittsburgh and is familiar with the maze of bridges, tunnels, and streets, it may not seem very difficult at all to get up there. But like I said earlier, if developers saw it the same way, Mt. Washington would be far more developed and higher rent than it is. Other than right along that eastern stretch of Grandview Ave, Mt. Washington is just not a desirable place to be. There's really not much up there, and much of that is due to its rather isolated location.

And as far as Pittsburgh's "spectacular locations" for development go, I don't think anyone could argue that Mt. Washington isn't the most spectacular by far. It hasn't developed like other neighborhoods have with vibrant business districts in its history specifically due to its terrain and location. It's nothing new.

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Originally Posted by glowrock View Post
Give me a break, guys. While I certainly agree that the Buncher proposal isn't the most incredible project I can think of for that enormous swath of parking lots, it's a hell of a lot better than it STAYING parking lots for perpetuity. I'm all in favor of negotiating with Buncher for as much as possible, but in the end, I think the end result will certainly deserve TIF funding. And let's face it, TIF funding is going to be needed for just about ANY project in that area due to the infrastructure costs involved.

Aaron (Glowrock)
Ahhh, the dreaded "It's better than what's there now" response! As a rustbelt native, these are some of the most vile words anyone interested in the urban environment can hear. That mindset kills us! The editorial says it right, "... But, the fact is, the mayor and his agencies, despite their obvious zeal for almost any developer’s investment in the city, deserve better plans than these. And so do the rest of us."

It won't stay as parking lots for perpetuity if Pittsburgh is undergoing the economic resurgence that we are believing it is. A company like Buncher needs to be pushed or it will undoubtedly construct something that will be very hard for the city to take pride in. Pittsburgh will get Buncher's bare minimum... we can all be certain of that, if they are not given a bit of pressure. It's a good thing that a few of the city council members who actually have brain function are saying wait a minute to the child mayor and his pals.

"Finally, a city-sponsored master planning process for all of the Allegheny riverfront, up through Lawrenceville to the city limits is under way.

The first stage of this planning evaluated transportation and ecological needs and commercial, cultural and recreational opportunities for the entire corridor. Completed last year, this was a “visioning” process to produce ideas. Subsequently, a design consultant was hired with $1.5 million of mostly federal money to further develop those ideas for parts of this area — including some that would involve Buncher’s land. Public meetings to gather input are already being held.

Let’s not let Buncher short-circuit that process just because they have a fistful of dollars. If they want public-financing assistance — and they obviously claim to need it — let’s have them pause and participate fully in this planning process.
"
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