PITTSBURGH | Development Rundown II

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by Austinlee

Here is a non-skilled side-by-side of APPROX what that might slightly look like. lol

That's good enough to help illustrate that from the angle of the PNC Tower rendering, I think The Gardens will probably overlap with the Tower.

[Private Dick]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

Although I am always most interested in more residential units, I don't have a problem with Kaplan versus, say, an office tenant.

I don't think it's a major detractor or anything. Just doesn't really seem to fit in with the idea of the Cultural District -- art, theater, high-end dining, high-priced loft residential, hotels... criminal justice program, dental/medical assistant training...

[Evergrey]

Originally Posted by Private Dick

I don't think it's a major detractor or anything. Just doesn't really seem to fit in with the idea of the Cultural District -- art, theater, high-end dining, high-priced loft residential, hotels... criminal justice program, dental/medical assistant training...

Agreed ... it 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵

[Brentsters]

Originally Posted by Private Dick

I don't think it's a major detractor or anything. Just doesn't really seem to fit in with the idea of the Cultural District -- art, theater, high-end dining, high-priced loft residential, hotels... criminal justice program, dental/medical assistant training...

I basically agree with this. I don't think it hurts...it just seems a little off relative to its surroundings.

On a general note, it's good to see the momentum of the Cultural District is continuing. Most of the news recently seems to be about the success of the Market Square area or central Downtown, as opposed to ~5 years ago when it seemed most news was about the Cultural District. With RiverParc falling through and the success of Fifth-Forbes/Market Square, it seemed like a lot of the momentum had shifted areas. So it's great to see both areas are continuing to thrive and get better...and really forming a large, cohesive block of reinvestment.

[Wave]

I guess the EDGE project on Mt. Washington is not dead afterall...which is good news. The developer now says construction will start in March and that there are two hotel operators interested.

http://triblive.com/business/2242580-74/...e-size-developer-financing-reduced-built

"Beemsterboer said the hotel portion of the project will continue to have between 160 to 170 rooms, because that’s the minimum operators say they need. And the height of the project likely will remain 23 stories.

Other pieces of the project have been reduced.

The hotel’s main ballroom size has been reduced from accommodating 500 people to 290, and the main meeting room from 500 to 193. The number of restaurants has also been cut from two to one. And parking spaces in a garage and outside have been reduced from 447 to 376, said Luke Desmone of Desmone & Associates, the project architect.

The number of condos also has been cut from 60 to 30 or 35, even though a number of people have expressed interest in buying them, Beemsterboer said."

[BrianTH]

I agree Kaplan may not fit with the branding the Cultural District is promoting, but I personally don't have a problem with the area having a wider mix of uses than that branding suggests.

I'm glad One Grandview isn't officially dead, but it apparently isn't financed yet either. Unless and until that happens, the project is at best in limbo.

[themaguffin]

Kaplan would make more sense closer to Point Park and the Art Institute.

[Private Dick]

Originally Posted by Brentsters

I basically agree with this. I don't think it hurts...it just seems a little off relative to its surroundings.

On a general note, it's good to see the momentum of the Cultural District is continuing. Most of the news recently seems to be about the success of the Market Square area or central Downtown, as opposed to ~5 years ago when it seemed most news was about the Cultural District. With RiverParc falling through and the success of Fifth-Forbes/Market Square, it seemed like a lot of the momentum had shifted areas. So it's great to see both areas are continuing to thrive and get better...and really forming a large, cohesive block of reinvestment.

Yeah, no big deal. It seems a little out of place, but you never know, it may end up being a positive for the area... especially considering there are 500 students... that's 500 potential spenders concentrated in the area... even though as Evergrey said, Subway may see much of that spending

To your second note, I was going to say the same thing, basically. I think it's really cool that multiple areas of downtown are seeing substantial investment at the same time -- with Cultural District, Fifth-Forbes/Market Square area, and Strip. This isn't something downtown Pittsburgh has seen in a long time. So maybe someone will finally build a 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 grocery store down there

Originally Posted by themaguffin

Kaplan would make more sense closer to Point Park and the Art Institute.

Right... exactly where it used to be.

[daviderik]

Originally Posted by Wave

I guess the EDGE project on Mt. Washington is not dead afterall...which is good news. The developer now says construction will start in March and that there are two hotel operators interested.

http://triblive.com/business/2242580-74/...e-size-developer-financing-reduced-built

"Beemsterboer said the hotel portion of the project will continue to have between 160 to 170 rooms, because that’s the minimum operators say they need. And the height of the project likely will remain 23 stories.

Other pieces of the project have been reduced.

The hotel’s main ballroom size has been reduced from accommodating 500 people to 290, and the main meeting room from 500 to 193. The number of restaurants has also been cut from two to one. And parking spaces in a garage and outside have been reduced from 447 to 376, said Luke Desmone of Desmone & Associates, the project architect.

The number of condos also has been cut from 60 to 30 or 35, even though a number of people have expressed interest in buying them, Beemsterboer said."

This is Great news! It's about time. But I believe after this complex is open and becomes mga popular the investors will line up to expand this currant project into phase 2. And even more new hotels and condos will pop up. Mt. Washington is a small gold mine. Some of those old stuffy resturants will have to change or go to keep up.

[Private Dick]

Originally Posted by daviderik

This is Great news! It's about time. But I believe after this complex is open and becomes mga popular the investors will line up to expand this currant project into phase 2. And even more new hotels and condos will pop up. Mt. Washington is a small gold mine. Some of those old stuffy resturants will have to change or go to keep up.

If they haven't been able to get financing for anything more than demolition and design, I wouldn't get hopes too high.

Mt. Washington is a very isolated section of Pittsburgh's core -- not good at all for a big hotel project -- almost a deal breaker really.

And those old stuffy restaurants are primarily used for banquets/special occasions -- kinda like Mt. Washington is visited infrequently for special occasions. If you can't tell, I don't have much hope for the success of this project... at least not for a little while when Pittsburgh can truly support something like this.

Reduction of the plan by a third and this: One lender with which they are working is the Pittsburgh-based ERECT Fund, which is funded by union pension money and requires projects to be built with union workers.

... shows me there is not much confidence in the project out there.

[daviderik]

...if you build it, they will come!!!

[markson33]

The ERECT fund is great, but usually indicates conventional banks aren't interested.

[BrianTH]

The Shiloh Street commercial area is pretty cool, and with the incline to the T right there, you have great access to Downtown and the North Shore.

That said, I do wonder if hotel financiers these days are thinking being right in Downtown is the way to go.

[Private Dick]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

The Shiloh Street commercial area is pretty cool, and with the incline to the T right there, you have great access to Downtown and the North Shore.

That said, I do wonder if hotel financiers these days are thinking being right in Downtown is the way to go.

Access to and from Mt. Washington is limited, especially for a major hotel. Business travelers and event goers having drive up to the top of Mt. Washington (assuming they can actually find their way there) to get to the hotel and then having to take the incline and then the T at the bottom to get to downtown is just unrealistic. It makes much more sense to be downtown, and that's not just these days. Mt. Washington has amazing views obviously, but it seems there is a reason it's only been developed so much, and still pretty ratty in many places.

A hotel project up there would be very cool... and could really change the entire atmosphere of Mt. Washington, but it is very risky to take that step. I guess my main thought on it is, "does it really make sense to build a large hotel at the end of Mt. Washington"? To me, it does not, but I really don't know too much about the ins and outs of real estate development.

[BrianTH]

I don't think there is anything fundamentally wrong with Mt Washington--lots of fundamentally solid locations have been underdeveloped, or entirely neglected, in recent decades due to the extended contractionary dynamic in the core area following the steel bust.

But of course that means this site has a lot of potential competition, and that may be the problem. The North Shore alone has absorbed a bunch of recent hotel projects, and Mt Washington is potentially competing as well with the South Side Works, Uptown/Lower-Hill, maybe even as far out as East Liberty. So perhaps its time has not quite yet come along.

One thing I think would help a lot is further development of the Station Square area. The Riverhounds stadium is an interesting addition, but what it really needs is some larger-scale residential and/or office projects taking over space in those massive surface parking lots, thereby making that area feel more like a fully-fledged extension of Downtown. Do that, and suddenly this location really would just be a short incline-ride away from such a "Greater Downtown".

[Private Dick]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

I don't think there is anything fundamentally wrong with Mt Washington--lots of fundamentally solid locations have been underdeveloped, or entirely neglected, in recent decades due to the extended contractionary dynamic in the core area following the steel bust.

But of course that means this site has a lot of potential competition, and that may be the problem. The North Shore alone has absorbed a bunch of recent hotel projects, and Mt Washington is potentially competing as well with the South Side Works, Uptown/Lower-Hill, maybe even as far out as East Liberty. So perhaps its time has not quite yet come along.

One thing I think would help a lot is further development of the Station Square area. The Riverhounds stadium is an interesting addition, but what it really needs is some larger-scale residential and/or office projects taking over space in those massive surface parking lots, thereby making that area feel more like a fully-fledged extension of Downtown. Do that, and suddenly this location really would just be a short incline-ride away from such a "Greater Downtown".

Mt. Washington is certainly a much more unique and spectacular location than any of the other areas you listed though. A "must see" spot for any visitor to Pittsburgh, yet it's floundered for decades, while other far less spectacular locations have seen great reinvestment. It has maintained a small business district, but most of the area has remained a low-rent district. Access is a key issue and Mt. Washington just doesn't have it -- it's at the top of a "mountain" after all.

Totally agree about development of Station Square area. That lack of development at the base of Mt. Washington contributes greatly to the isolation I'm talking about. Residential development on those lots would be huge for Mt. Washington.

[BrianTH]

But Mt Washington (particularly the relevant area along or near the crest) remained in much better shape, and saw more private (e.g., non-stadium) investment, than the North Shore, Lower Hill, or Uptown, all of which have much better road access to Downtown.

And it is not like it is an incredible ordeal to drive up to Grandview. Yes, you may need to know a bit about what you are doing, or have a competent NAV, but subject to that condition it is a handful of minutes. And you can even avoid the tunnels for points south/west.

[Private Dick]

Judge: Former St. Nicholas Church on Route 28 can be demolished

July 23, 2012 12:35 pm
By Diana Nelson Jones / Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/loca...-can-be-demolished-645851/#ixzz21T53Mrgu



Allegheny County Common Pleas Court Judge Robert Colville has reversed the Pittsburgh Historic Review Commission's decision last fall against St. Nicholas Parish's application for economic hardship, which it sought to demolish the former St. Nicholas Church on Route 28.

Citing previous case law, the ruling describes the church's historic designation in 2001 as, in effect, "a taking" that left the church hobbled by historic code demands.

It also questioned the legal standing of many people who testified and offered opinions about the building's viability.

The Northside Leadership Conference and a Croatian preservation organization had hoped to acquire the property, pending a geologic study of the land, to establish a national immigration museum.

...

From previous story:

Lamar Advertising Inc. is poised to buy the historic St. Nicholas Church property in Troy Hill. The Diocese of Pittsburgh yesterday announced a sales agreement with the billboard advertising firm.

Lamar's interest is to secure a site for its billboards. Its presence along Route 28 has been threatened by Pennsylvania Department of Transportation efforts to condemn billboards on state rights of way. Lamar recently filed preliminary objections to PennDOT's declaration of taking by eminent domain in Allegheny County Common Pleas Court.

The site of the oldest Croatian congregation in America, the church was closed by the Diocese of Pittsburgh in 2004 and has been a contested property since.

PennDOT was planning to demolish it for road expansion but changed its design last year after neighborhood residents, preservation groups and former congregants raised an uproar.

[gallacus]

Weighing two redevelopment options for the same parcel of Downtown land
Either the historic building will be saved and there will be no high-rise, or it will be torn down and the skyscraper will be built

July 18th, 2012
By Charles Rosenblum / Pittsburgh City Paper

http://www.pghcitypaper.com/pittsburgh/w...cel-of-downtown-land/Content?oid=1544499

[Private Dick]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

But Mt Washington (particularly the relevant area along or near the crest) remained in much better shape, and saw more private (e.g., non-stadium) investment, than the North Shore, Lower Hill, or Uptown, all of which have much better road access to Downtown.

And it is not like it is an incredible ordeal to drive up to Grandview. Yes, you may need to know a bit about what you are doing, or have a competent NAV, but subject to that condition it is a handful of minutes. And you can even avoid the tunnels for points south/west.

Better shape as far as residential stock right along the relatively short stretch of Grandview, yes. Other than that though, there's never really been much else up there; and most of the residential investment was done decades ago. And there are how many stalled residential projects up there right now... that have been stalled for awhile -- long before the real estate bubble burst?

It's not just access to Downtown... it's access anywhere. It's simply difficult to get to... particularly if your considering it from the perspective of a potential financier for a hotel project. If it was a sure thing, or even something which had great potential in Pittsburgh, major hotel chains would be jumping at the chance to build in such a spectacular location. They haven't though... ever. And the area remains considerably lower rent than many other "desirable" neighborhoods in Pittsburgh. There's something to that.