DENVER | Transportation Thread

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

Now let's remove the suburban routes (including 44th, although that one is debatable). And let's combine the various Federal routes into a single corridor. That leaves us these corridors:

• East Colfax
• West Colfax
• Federal
• South Broadway
• Colorado
• Alameda

Glowy just about had it right (you have no idea how much it pains me to say that).

Next step: Mapping.

I think West Colfax shouldn't be included. When the West Line starts up next year ridership on the 16 will likely drop and the 16L won't even exist.

[bunt_q]

You really need to look at where those boardings are occurring, though.

For example, when we looked at the 0L, we found almost no intermediate boardings/alightings between I-25/Broadway and Civic Center. It essentially serves as a light rail to civic center shuttle.

I think we need to figure out what we're trying to accomplish here. Goals first, then devise a solution.

For example...the much-cited need for a circulator or something from Highland to/from other Central Denver neighborhoods... You won't find that anywhere if you determine your best routes based on existing ridership, because there's nothing that exists that serves that (perceived/real?) need.

We've found that with Downtown to Cherry Creek too. Nobody...nobody, questions the need for that connection. But you wouldn't know it looking at exising ridership, which barely justifies a local route (the 2, in fact, got cancelled). It's made modeling ridership there a real challenge because we're trying to create a transit market where almost none exists today (nearly all of the 83L's ridership is between downtown and farther east - there, again, are almost no boardings/alightings to speak of in Cherry Creek itself).

Colfax was easy because it's a linear corridor, and one RTD actually serves. Modeling anything else intra-Denver is much harder because we don't have a good baseline of comparable transit ridership to work with.

[Cirrus]

Totally agree. Our goal isn't to reproduce RTD's most successful routes. It's to produce a transit system that conveniently serves all daily needs of urban core residents; that is, something that will support car-free (or car-light) living in the places where it is most practical. That means focusing a little more on the core than this exercise has so far done.

Here's a map of what those routes I called out earlier are doing. It's a bit simplified (doesn't account for differences between local/express, for example), but you get the idea.



It's clear that we'll want to hit some additional destinations. We want good service to the densest neighborhoods, including Cap Hill, Cheesman Park, Lincoln Park, Baker, Uptown, Ballpark, and Highlands. We can skip Five Points since it's got rail.

But the RTD map is still educational. It tells us what trips are covered already, and what corridors we might use to logically connect our destinations.

So here's map round 2, a first attempt to hit both our key destinations and the busiest segments of corridor, without duplicating RTD services exactly. There are five routes here:

• Union Station > Civic Center > Colfax > Colorado Blvd
• Union Station > Uptown > Cap Hill > Cheesman Park > Cherry Creek > Alameda (possibly too duplicative of RTD's Alameda Limited; might just end this at Colorado)
• 38th/Blake > Ballpark > Union Station > Auraria > West Colfax > Sheridan LRT
• Union Station > Speer > Lincoln Park > Merchant's Park > I-25/Broadway (this could be Broadway instead of Santa Fe/Kalamath)
• Union Station > Highlands > Federal Blvd

[glowrock]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

Glowy just about had it right (you have no idea how much it pains me to say that).

Next step: Mapping.

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Cirrus!

Aaron (Glowrock)

[Launch 12]

After visiting Phoenix, which of course has a much less comprehensive rail network and arguably greater challenges in getting people out of their cars, I found that their relatively new light rail system (Metro) could be a great model for Denver for more interurban/within city limits connections and how to effectively integrate a system onto existing roadways. The light rail was effective because it traveled at higher speeds than street cars, had stations that were more akin to larger rail stops, and had signal prioritization that made it run smoothly and quickly down thoroughfares. This would be ideal for Colfax or Broadway and maybe even Speer....check it out.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/METRO_Light_Rail_(Phoenix)

http://www.urbanrail.net/am/phoenix/phoenix.htm

http://subwaynut.com/rockies/valley_metro

[docroc]

Originally Posted by wong21fr

I think West Colfax shouldn't be included. When the West Line starts up next year ridership on the 16 will likely drop and the 16L won't even exist.

I'd offer that Sheridan Blvd be added to the mix.

AND - just to add to the discussion - transforming these current roadways to actual corridors would necessitate "complete streets" treatments for most of them. The pedestrian experience - in particular - on some of these streets continues to be challenging - not to mention the bicycle access to transit stops.

[Cirrus]

One important factor here is probably going to be city limit boundaries. Presuming that this sort of special service would be funded in large part by an extra contribution from the city it's in, that would make Sheridan a difficult choice. Even if Denver owns the street (does it?), half the benefit would go to Lakewood, Wheat Ridge, and Edgewater residents.

That means it might make an OK addition down the road, but probably isn't one you'd start with.

The little segment I'm showing on Sheridan is really just to give the East Colfax segment a logical end point. Wherever we can conveniently end a line at a rail station, we should.

[Cirrus]

More fun:

[bunt_q]

This is why I drive:

1. Pouring rain (not RTD's fault)
2. Neither ticket vending machine accepting bills at station (RTD's fault)
3. No other option to pay (not my fault, but tell that to a fare inspector when the time comes)
4. 15-minute headways adding insult to injury.

At least the TVM makes a good shelter...you know, since RTD hardly bothers to provide any other shelter.

EDIT: Even better. Just escorted some Swiss fellow to an ATM... he just couldn't understand why our trains don't take credit cards. I feel his pain. Pathetic. Provincial. I didn't tell him that it won't matter, he still won't have any way to pay. Don't figure they'll track him to Zurich to pay the fine.

A part of me is seriously tempted to seek a court injunction on ALL new rail construction in Denver until we can figure out the little things... you know, like how to accept money. Maybe it'd get FTA's attention, or the legislature, they could order RTD to do a fare recovery study accounting for things like institutional incompetence, as well as run of the mill fare evasion.

[Cirrus]

Catch-22. The best incentive for RTD to improve the small stuff is for Denver to have such a strong transit culture that the population demands it.

[bunt_q]

If we don't have that already with the lines we have, we're not going to get it by adding 2, 3, even 10 primarily-suburban commuter lines.

The transit riders who matter ride between 6-8 am, 5-7 pm, and have Eco-passes. If that weren't the case, we'd already have ticket machines (and frankly, fare cards, even on buses) that worked. Not tokens, paper, and dot matrix ticket printers.

[Cirrus]

I suppose the fact that they've all got eco-passes might damper the demand. But I don't think we'd complain that the eco-pass program is working well.

Not that I'm defending a transit agency that can't collect fares. That's pretty inexcusable.

[SnyderBock]

I thought RTD was planning on replacing all station ticket machines with ones that accept credit cards?

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by SnyderBock

I thought RTD was planning on replacing all station ticket machines with ones that accept credit cards?

Didn't we all. I think it's working on the same schedule the real-time station messaging signs were. So, whatever the contract delivery date was, plus 5 years.

Which, by the way, wound up being worse than useless. They're essentially just signs that give you the scheduled times at each station. And when the scheduled time for a train elapses, it erases and moves on to the next scheduled train...whether the first train has come-and-gone or not. Pretty clear indicator that it's not doing real-time anything - its just an electronic schedule board. In the time it took RTD to get that system up and running, I think I went from a Samsung flip phone to my fourth iPhone...needless to say, my phone and google maps transit is every bit as useful (more so, since RTD's board gives you actual times - just like a paper schedule - rather than time-to-arrival, but as there's no clock at the stations, you're still at the mercy of whatever difference there is between your watch and theirs).

Most people consider this nitpicky and just assume I like to 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 a lot. But as Cirrus' threads from the pacific northwest showed, it makes all the difference when agencies/cities do the little things right. And we fail on so many of the little things, at least, compared to the cities we should be emulating. (This is where somebody steps in to boast all of the great things we are doing... yeah yeah, I know. But we can't all be cheerleaders, right? Or else nobody ever bothers to fix what isn't already great.)

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

I suppose the fact that they've all got eco-passes might damper the demand.

I'm not even sure that's our biggest hurdle to creating a transit-hungry population that demands excellence. This is:



Don't get me wrong, I'm all for regional solutions. But it's a big hurdle when we need our "transit culture" to win a majority of board votes over such a large area. It's not enough for us to develop a strong transit culture in Denver. We have to do it regionally.

[glowrock]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

This is why I drive:

1. Pouring rain (not RTD's fault)
2. Neither ticket vending machine accepting bills at station (RTD's fault)
3. No other option to pay (not my fault, but tell that to a fare inspector when the time comes)
4. 15-minute headways adding insult to injury.

At least the TVM makes a good shelter...you know, since RTD hardly bothers to provide any other shelter.

EDIT: Even better. Just escorted some Swiss fellow to an ATM... he just couldn't understand why our trains don't take credit cards. I feel his pain. Pathetic. Provincial. I didn't tell him that it won't matter, he still won't have any way to pay. Don't figure they'll track him to Zurich to pay the fine.

A part of me is seriously tempted to seek a court injunction on ALL new rail construction in Denver until we can figure out the little things... you know, like how to accept money. Maybe it'd get FTA's attention, or the legislature, they could order RTD to do a fare recovery study accounting for things like institutional incompetence, as well as run of the mill fare evasion.

You just described Pittsburgh as well, except we have one additional problem, that being that the vast majority of parking meters here only accept quarters. No plastic, not even dollar bills! Imagine how many quarters are needed when it costs $3/hour to park at some of the ones downtown!

In all honesty, there's no reason whatsoever for transit and parking agencies to finally get with the times and start accepting plastic. Period.

Aaron (Glowrock)

[Cirrus]

Credit cards at parking meters? How quaint. Get with the times, guys.

[Cirrus]

Anyway, to tie this back to the earlier circulator discussion:

Originally Posted by bunt_q

it's a big hurdle when we need our "transit culture" to win a majority of board votes over such a large area.

And that's one of the reasons why having a few smaller, more nimble transit agencies can be a good thing. It's why it might make sense for Denver to go it alone to build its streetcar, or its Boulder-like network of circulator buses.

If the regional agency is too lumbering and slow to deliver what you what, send out an RFQ and go it alone. You'll have better service, and the regional agency will have a little competition pushing it in the right direction.

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

How quaint.

I totally read that in a Scotty voice. Keyboard. How quaint.

[Teshadoh]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

2. Neither ticket vending machine accepting bills at station (RTD's fault)

That will be resolved within a year - RTD will be rolling out new transit passes that you can charge up online.