Calgary Public Transit II

[suburbia]

Originally Posted by andasen

One difference is that the three existing lines have existing upstream activity centers (Chinook, Southcenter, U of C, Airport (via McKnight), Sunridge, Marborough, Peter Lougheed Center) where the NC line doesn't have any existing activity nodes to my knowledge beyond access to the airport.

This needs to be addressed before construction can begin.

It is interesting how you list Airport with the NE line and not the NC line. This is really an uneducated comment in context of the infrastructure improvements happening in the NC area. In addition to having more people in the catchment than some other areas (an important point to be certain), there is also North Pointe (including a high school, Cardel Place - one of the most successful leisure centres with major plans of expansion, reserved land for the AHS north calgary diagnostic centre, a major shopping hub, etc.), the Aurora Business Park between Beddington and 96th, which is set to expand in a major way as soon as 96th ave connects across to Airport Trail (which will also be why the Airport is better aligned with the NC route), the new Science Centre, etc.

Another point that may become material over time is that the DT and other parts of the city are slowly but surly becoming more than 8am in, 4pm out hubs. A specific example is the increasing density of higher education in the core. Bow Valley, all of the future occupants of their new expansion, University of Calgary, etc. have students coming in and out at different times. Additionally, the core in general is adding aspects that will have people coming and going at different times from the usual rush hours. That includes things like the peace bridge (I've already been twice, and will go to show every visitor I have from hence forth), the CORE including new gardens, Calgary's evolving and exciting cultural institutions and arts scene, etc. Be sure that the glenbow will be bigger and better over the next 10-15 years. We will have at least one new major arts / cultural institution, a major new library, the national music centre, a major and larger convention centre, major new sports facilities, etc. Remember that the NC line will not be in place in the near future, so we have to have our thinking caps on with respect to what will be in place both in the northern part of the line, as well as in downtown. I reject the comment that it is only a rush hour line.

[DarkKeyo]

Originally Posted by suburbia

Question:

Why could the Nose Creek alighnment not follow a path approximately that of the prior HSR design, serving Inglewood en route to DT, and avoiding the capacity limits of 7th ave? See bottom circle in the blue map here.

I remember Calgary Transit planners rejecting running the Nose Creek LRT past Zoo station, over the river, and merging with the SELRT in Inglewood, in favour of interlining with the 202. That would have made the Nose Creek alignment more acceptable, since it would be interlining with SELRT to a downtown terminus (eliminating two disadvantages of interlining with the 202, one that they would both terminate at 69 St, and the other with headways, since you would lose enough ridership from running it down Nose Creek that you wouldn't require as many trains. That ridership would instead be on BRT buses. Which would be more expensive.)

(I would like to include here that short turning the NCLRT trains downtown somewhere while on the 202 tracks, which I remember being mentioned, would require massive redesign and reconstruction, as we didn't build that function into our system. Building that function into a 202 subway escalates the cost of that subway, and we already can't afford to build it.
I would also like to add that taking your post literally and running NCLRT along the CPR ROW all the way into downtown would also be a massive and expensive undertaking, which gives it no advantages over Centre St.)


Question back at you, and at everyone in general. Explain to me how we are managing to fit 2 LRT tracks, 2 railway tracks that combine freight and commuter service, and 2 HSR tracks (as well as any stations) into a railway ROW (that I assume CPR ownes) that at its widest has room for 4 tracks? There would be space constraints at Memorial, everywhere south of memorial, at 8th, 16th, 32nd, McKnight, Greenview Industrial, 64th, Beddington, and you would hit Nose Creek at many places in between. How, exactly, is this very wide multi-use Transit ROW that isn't entirely owned by the City, cheaper and easier to build?

[RyLucky]

Originally Posted by suburbia

Question:

Why could the Nose Creek alighnment not follow a path approximately that of the prior HSR design, serving Inglewood en route to DT, and avoiding the capacity limits of 7th ave? See bottom circle in the blue map here.

"Three options to connect the proposed North Central LRT line with the downtown have been reviewed. It was concluded that a connection of the North Central line to the Northeast line just east of the Calgary Zoo station is the most feasible, based on minimizing cost (capital and operating) and travel time. The options reviewed and a detailed drawing of this connection are shown in Appendix 2." http://www.calgarytransit.com/pdf/north_central_calgary_transit_corridor_review.pdf
I don't see how overloading the SE line is any better than overloading the NE line?... The way to connect the SE line is by extending it north from Eau Claire.

BRT is great. In fact, the 301 up centre street is one of the busiest bus routes in the city. It's direct, it's cheap (many magnitudes cheaper than the price of establishing LRT). While nose creek lrt will be about 30% faster than centre street BRT, a Centre Street lrt will be faster still. Yes, Centre Street LRT will be more expensive than Nose Creek LRT, but if Nose Creek gets built, Centre Street never will. Sure, BRT can serve the needs of this corridor as it exists today, and sure commuters north of Beddington can enjoy a roundabout route (5km longer than CS) down nose creek for a few years until the NELRT has maxed capacity.

Originally Posted by suburbia

It would limit the risk of funds being exhausted before the track reaches North of Beddington and/or would get the project off the ground sooner as the funding challenges would be smaller. Some of the plans being put forth by people who'd never be using this line are so darn expensive that the track would stop short of where the service is actually needed.

Every meter of track in nose creek will be nearly useless until 10 kms have been laid. I agree that it would be the project off the ground sooner, but if you were buying a home in Calgary's far north, wouldn't you want a line that gets you downtown faster, without the uncertainty of what might happen when NELRT reaches capacity? Who knows, you might even want to go somewhere other than downtown (ie Centre Street). And don't forget, even Nose Creek alignment will cost around 1.5-2B$. I'd rather we did it right, even if it means taking longer to secure funds. This will become a vital corridor of our city.

[Aegis]

hasn't the nose creek alignment been completely ruled out? If so, why are we going over the finer technical points of how it would/wouldn't work?..

[suburbia]

Originally Posted by Aegis

hasn't the nose creek alignment been completely ruled out? If so, why are we going over the finer technical points of how it would/wouldn't work?..

I don't think that is the case, though it is currently out of favor. There is no doubt in anyone's mind that running up Centre via a subway or what have you would be nicer, but so would teleporting. The discussion is about what is realistic.

[Aegis]

Originally Posted by suburbia

I don't think that is the case, though it is currently out of favor. There is no doubt in anyone's mind that running up Centre via a subway or what have you would be nicer, but so would teleporting. The discussion is about what is realistic.

I heard on the news that City admin has ruled out the nose creek alignment, and is only advocating either the centre street or edmonton trail alignment.

[Ferreth]

While I'm happy to see the city get a bit more creative than "Nose Creek is cheapest, build that" I don't buy that Nose Creek is off the table forever either. There is plenty of time for a future change back to Nose Creek, especially once the city starts talking expropriation requirements. The alignment of the SE line has already been changed (Quarry Park) and that hasn't been 10 years since they put those plans out.

Regarding interlining with the SE vs. the NE line, I'd say that at least it makes more sense for the SE + N as those are likely to be the least used lines into the downtown. Also as far as the (possible) lack of room: politically and cost wise it's cheaper in general to expropriate some light industrial land rather than residential. One expensive bridge across the Bow River would be required though.

I still think piggybacking off of a HSR is the way to go. I doubt frequencies to Edmonton would pass the 30 minute mark anytime in the foreseeable future - lots of room to run extra commuter trains into downtown on the HSR tracks. As I said before, you could build the Calgary commuter component before building the rest to Edmonton. Might even connect to Airdrie before connecting to Edmonton.

[fusili]

Originally Posted by Ferreth

Regarding interlining with the SE vs. the NE line, I'd say that at least it makes more sense for the SE + N as those are likely to be the least used lines into the downtown. Also as far as the (possible) lack of room: politically and cost wise it's cheaper in general to expropriate some light industrial land rather than residential. One expensive bridge across the Bow River would be required though. .

I would disagree. The NE line serves 150K ppl and the West line 110K ppl. While the NC line would also be 150K, the growth in Northern Hills would add over 100K to this. With the SE, the line would serve 90K today, but considerably more as the area builds out. I think in terms of hierarchy of ridership 20 years from now it would be more like:

- South line
- Northcentral line
- Southeast line
- Northeast line
- Northwest line
- West line

[suburbia]

Originally Posted by Aegis

I heard on the news that City admin has ruled out the nose creek alignment, and is only advocating either the centre street or edmonton trail alignment.

We'll see what is on or off the table once the estimates come in. It makes little sense to rule things out completely, unless there are variables being considered that we are not privy to.

The biggest draw for the other alignments are the much easier connections to the SE line. I'm just waiting for someone to figure out how to pay for the more central alignments. IF that happens, my views on what we should be looking at will change, and very quickly. Perhaps that is what the new deal for cities can do for Calgary. I'm curious what happens provincially and what that will result at the ground level (or below ground level) in Calgary.

[Policy Wonk]

Originally Posted by Aegis

hasn't the nose creek alignment been completely ruled out? If so, why are we going over the finer technical points of how it would/wouldn't work?..

You guys are reading way too much into what has taken place here,

This is the mayor following through on a strawman campaign promise that he probably didn't give six seconds thought to. The bureaucracy will follow orders and then the day after he leaves office sleeve the whole works into the garbage. This happens at every level of government on a million and one different issues. Baring some sort of revolutionary shift in federal transportation funding this is probably thirty years away. Whatever political theatre transpires in 2012 will be long forgotten by then.

[Ferreth]

Originally Posted by fusili

I would disagree. The NE line serves 150K ppl and the West line 110K ppl. While the NC line would also be 150K, the growth in Northern Hills would add over 100K to this. With the SE, the line would serve 90K today, but considerably more as the area builds out. I think in terms of hierarchy of ridership 20 years from now it would be more like:

- South line
- Northcentral line
- Southeast line
- Northeast line
- Northwest line
- West line

I took a look at the "Calgary Transit 20 Year Capital Plan" (2006). I'd share a link, but I can't find it anymore on the City or Calgary Transit's site. According to Exhibit 1, by 2033 (the farthest out they estimate) NE LRT should increase by 55K. I can't find numbers for the current NE line but your 150K (total I assume) seems good to me so I'll run with it.

North will be 74K for the whole area. (They define it as North of Beddington)

SE will be 109K; West 114K.

So the shared NE + N line would have to service 150K + 74K = 224K

Shared SE + N line would have to service 109K + 74 K = 183K

If I allow for another 20K on the North line for feeders from south of Beddington we are getting close to a dead heat.

If 7th Ave is still above grade at that point, I'd still go with SE interlining. Otherwise, it's close enough that cheaper NE might be the more expedient option. Interesting exercise at anyrate. I didn't realize the SE was going to get so big eventually. I hate to think what Deerfoot is going to be line then.

[Policy Wonk]

Originally Posted by RyLucky

Every meter of track in nose creek will be nearly useless until 10 kms have been laid. I agree that it would be the project off the ground sooner, but if you were buying a home in Calgary's far north, wouldn't you want a line that gets you downtown faster, without the uncertainty of what might happen when NELRT reaches capacity? Who knows, you might even want to go somewhere other than downtown (ie Centre Street). And don't forget, even Nose Creek alignment will cost around 1.5-2B$. I'd rather we did it right, even if it means taking longer to secure funds. This will become a vital corridor of our city.

That would be a tragic failure of imagination given the opportunities for redevelopment of a treeless golf course and decrepit warehousing.

And any capacity issues on the NELRT real, imagined or invented will have been addressed long before this is built.

[Policy Wonk]

Originally Posted by DarkKeyo

Question back at you, and at everyone in general. Explain to me how we are managing to fit 2 LRT tracks, 2 railway tracks that combine freight and commuter service, and 2 HSR tracks (as well as any stations) into a railway ROW (that I assume CPR ownes) that at its widest has room for 4 tracks? There would be space constraints at Memorial, everywhere south of memorial, at 8th, 16th, 32nd, McKnight, Greenview Industrial, 64th, Beddington, and you would hit Nose Creek at many places in between. How, exactly, is this very wide multi-use Transit ROW that isn't entirely owned by the City, cheaper and easier to build?

Well that is easy to answer, we aren't.

As originally conceived the Nose Creek LRT would have run in the CPR row, however when it appeared that the province might actually be serious about wasting billions on HSR the city planned a new alignment completely outside the CPR ROW. There was also discussion of a land-swap between the province and city that would have facilitated running the LRT on the fringe of Deerfoot Trail. As a Nose Creek LRT would be built today it would run almost entirely on city owned land.

[Policy Wonk]

Originally Posted by westendjack

Question: if the goal of the North Central LRT is to deliver 9 to 5 downtowners to and from work Monday through Friday, why build it as an LRT at all?

You mean the very passengers who have made the LRT one of the most successful mass transit systems in North America as opposed to a right-wing platitude about the folly of mass transit?

Those 9 to 5ers?

The light rail systems that are unmitigated failures are the ones that pretend to be street cars.

[DarkKeyo]

Originally Posted by Policy Wonk

Well that is easy to answer, we aren't.

As originally conceived the Nose Creek LRT would have run in the CPR row, however when it appeared that the province might actually be serious about wasting billions on HSR the city planned a new alignment completely outside the CPR ROW. There was also discussion of a land-swap between the province and city that would have facilitated running the LRT on the fringe of Deerfoot Trail. As a Nose Creek LRT would be built today it would run almost entirely on city owned land.

Interesting, I hadn't heard about that.

Do you have links that would show me where this new alignment was planned to be? The City usually keeps planning documents even for routes that have fallen out of favour? It would be useful to see if this would make for a more accurate comparison, because station and route locations affect the viability of a Nose Creek route quite a bit. It would be a nice distraction from this endless, pointless debate...

[DarkKeyo]

And now for something completely different,

I walked by 11 st/Downtown West station today. The westbound track has been connected across 10 St, so the WLRT is now physically connected to the rest of the system (some time before test trains can run, though). The forms for the platforms are in as well, and some platform segments are in place. This feels like it will actually be finished soon.

[andasen]

Quick appology for the belated/lengthy reply, had gone to respond earlier but lost internet connection at the time and forgot to come back to this.

Originally Posted by suburbia

It is interesting how you list Airport with the NE line and not the NC line. This is really an uneducated comment in context of the infrastructure improvements happening in the NC area. In addition to having more people in the catchment than some other areas (an important point to be certain), there is also North Pointe (including a high school, Cardel Place - one of the most successful leisure centres with major plans of expansion, reserved land for the AHS north calgary diagnostic centre, a major shopping hub, etc.), the Aurora Business Park between Beddington and 96th, which is set to expand in a major way as soon as 96th ave connects across to Airport Trail (which will also be why the Airport is better aligned with the NC route), the new Science Centre, etc.

Err.... I did mention connection to the airport for the NC line... but moving on.

Sorry I should have been far clearer (since rereading my comment I gave practically zero indication of this) I was arguing that land use changes needed to be made before a Center street/Edmonton Trail alignment would be able to be built given that in between DT and Beddington the closest thing to an activity node is Thornhill-Dieffenbaker/MacDonald HS. Major transfer oportunities at 16th may one day be a draw but I don't see any trends within the 10 year horizon radically changing this.

Yes the location of the new science center is a pro for a Nose Creek alignment though in my less than humble opinion I do not understand why they built the center so far from Zoo C-train Station solely because they would be absolutely garunteed access to the primary transit network instead of a potential future station in the long run and a signifigant walk for transit users in the short/medium term (there are probably very good reasons reasons why it wasn't, but in this I have a weird blind spot and I have no idea why)

I appologize again I brought up the the issue of North Pointe in the post which I lost and forgot to redo so you get it now (arguments relatating to 'lack' of upstream activity in the lines)

Coming off of the arguement that

Originally Posted by Full Mountain

The West LRT doesn't have any upstream activity centers, yet it's being built, in fact it's not even connecting to the largest activity center in the area, MRU. The North Central part of calgary has a huge proven transit usage and has the best potential for becoming a major urban corridor out of all the existing and planned LRT routes

West LRT doesn't have Chinook grade activity centers but it does have activity centers, the new Earnest Manning High School/Westside Rec Center, Westbrook (as a major plus to this a BRT connection to MRU). It has stops with great redevelopment potencial. Sunalta/Greyhound station (though this is practically downtown so not really a downstream activity center)

Yes the North Central alignments of Center Street and Edmonton trail have fantastic potential to become a major urban corridor but both need an infusion of non-residential land uses south of Beddington in order to have the all day ridership to make the case for a full lrt instead of BRT up center street and some sort of (non-electrified, lower frequency) commuter train servicing North of Beddington and on to Airdrie. The commuter ridership is there for certain but would a rail rapid transit line be able to meet the off peak demands of the north center or would the area be better served by the bus network it has now?

The Arguements can also be stuck to the Southeast line as well. I've ridden the SE BRT after 9am and its practically empty, theres a good reason why they are stopping it being an accordian bus off peak, the demand just isn't there right now. There are potencial activiy nodes in the works yes but nothing in terms of real off peak demand generators. Quarry Park once fully built out with Rec center and all will be one. Douglas Glen is in the heart of a relatively dense employment area which if I remember correctly also has a fair number of retail-industrial hybrid businesses in the immediate area which could draw people off peak from around the city. DouglasGlen, South Hill and Sheppard will the transfer locations for Foothills Industrial (not entirely sure how well this translates into off peak ridership though does have reverse flow peak commuting!!). Crossroads market may make gains in terms of activity density but nothing certain. The only certain activity node all day activity center will be the hospital would probably not even be built in the first go around. Hence the challenge in building the SE LRT, everything worth while is too far away to be built today.

I agree with the ordering of the transit project. Even though the west doesn't have high magnitude activity centers it has centers plus connections to MRU and West Hills (arguable that not many people would bus to such an autocentric shopping district). Southeast is 'starting' to build activity centers within reachable distance.

The North is a commuter waste land until you get to Beddington, not a particularly good mid day business case.

Another point that may become material over time is that the DT and other parts of the city are slowly but surly becoming more than 8am in, 4pm out hubs. A specific example is the increasing density of higher education in the core. Bow Valley, all of the future occupants of their new expansion, University of Calgary, etc. have students coming in and out at different times. Additionally, the core in general is adding aspects that will have people coming and going at different times from the usual rush hours. That includes things like the peace bridge (I've already been twice, and will go to show every visitor I have from hence forth), the CORE including new gardens, Calgary's evolving and exciting cultural institutions and arts scene, etc. Be sure that the glenbow will be bigger and better over the next 10-15 years. We will have at least one new major arts / cultural institution, a major new library, the national music centre, a major and larger convention centre, major new sports facilities, etc. Remember that the NC line will not be in place in the near future, so we have to have our thinking caps on with respect to what will be in place both in the northern part of the line, as well as in downtown. I reject the comment that it is only a rush hour line.

Point taken, though at the end of the day why would a person traveling from the South for example transfer onto the North Line. Its all well and good to make investments that benefit that benifit a local area but it becomes a must do once you give the rest of the city a reason to jump on that train as well.

Originally Posted by Policy Wonk

You mean the very passengers who have made the LRT one of the most successful mass transit systems in North America as opposed to a right-wing platitude about the folly of mass transit?

Those 9 to 5ers?

The light rail systems that are unmitigated failures are the ones that pretend to be street cars.

Yes light rail systems that pretend to be street cars are not doing what they are good at but electrified rail can not be justified purely by 9-5ers need to have some people having a reason to get on the train midday to get anywhere on the line.

Ultimaly I do want to see NC line built (preferable up Center street because in my mind that is the corridor which will provide the greatest returns in the long run). I just see that there needs to be land use changes that needs to be done in order to make even a comprehensive business case examining all three options truly representative of the potencial for the the area.

[Full Mountain]

The issue with the BRT on Center Street right now is traffic volumes both bus and vehicle, (correct me if I'm wrong Mersar, Fusili) it is starting to get to the point where they can't add more buses to deal with the demand, without negatively effecting the other buses and traffic on the route already, not to mention the massive choke point that is the Center Street bridge.

[DizzyEdge]

Originally Posted by Full Mountain

The issue with the BRT on Center Street right now is traffic volumes both bus and vehicle, (correct me if I'm wrong Mersar, Fusili) it is starting to get to the point where they can't add more buses to deal with the demand, without negatively effecting the other buses and traffic on the route already, not to mention the massive choke point that is the Center Street bridge.

Perhaps they need to add BRTs to 4th st or Edm Trail, although that doesn't help the Centre street issue, although proper enforcement of the HOV lane might.

[fusili]

Originally Posted by Full Mountain

The issue with the BRT on Center Street right now is traffic volumes both bus and vehicle, (correct me if I'm wrong Mersar, Fusili) it is starting to get to the point where they can't add more buses to deal with the demand, without negatively effecting the other buses and traffic on the route already, not to mention the massive choke point that is the Center Street bridge.

What Calgary Transit has been quietly asking for, and what I support, is to change the HOV lane to a transit-only lane on Centre Street. The second part of that puzzle is adding transit-only bus lanes downtown.