The Great Canadian Transit Thread

[The_Architect]

Originally Posted by Bassic Lab

Are the existing Sheppard Subway tunnels large enough to accomodate the LRV vehicles that Toronto will use on the other routes? Ignoring the issue with rail gauge (I suppose that the broad gauge streetcars could still form longer consists) for the time being. If Sheppard could form a single line with, like what Eglinton is shaping up to be, underground and surface operation then it could work pretty well. Anything that requires a transfer from LRT to Subway just seems problematic. I mean, would a typical user particularly enjoy taking a bus to the Sheppard LRT, the LRT to the Sheppard Subway, the Sheppard Subway to the Yonge Subway, then the Yonge Subway to downtown. That just seems like an overly burdensome number of transfers for a daily commute.

When I worked in Hamilton last year I had to take an Oakville Transit (shudder) bus to the GO Station, a GO train from Oakville to Burlington, a GO bus from Burlington to Aldershot, then Hamilton GO Centre, then a Hamilton bus to my work. My God that was brutal. Made the Oakville Transit - GO Train - Subway commute seem so simple.

[rbt]

Originally Posted by isaidso

How do you know that Torontonians won't accept taxation to pay for transit? No one wants to pay more, but things cost money.

We will find this out, definitively, in 6 to 9 months.

[miketoronto]

Originally Posted by Bassic Lab

AAnything that requires a transfer from LRT to Subway just seems problematic. I mean, would a typical user particularly enjoy taking a bus to the Sheppard LRT, the LRT to the Sheppard Subway, the Sheppard Subway to the Yonge Subway, then the Yonge Subway to downtown. That just seems like an overly burdensome number of transfers for a daily commute.

And that is just what Scarborough residents currently do with the SRT. With the Sheppard LRT, the transfer issue will again force Scarborough riders to transfer more than any other residents in the city.
Of course not that many are going to be transferring, as they will be in their cars anyway. Deterred from taking transit due to all the stupid transfers where there should not be transfers.

[miketoronto]

Think the Sheppard subway is underused? Think again.

Subway Route-----------------Length in KM--------------Daily Weekday Ridership

Turin------------------------------13.2----------------------90,000

Chicago Green Line-----------------33------------------------70,397

Chicago Orange Line----------------20.1-----------------------59,044

Sheppard Subway---------------6.5------------------------47,700

Baltimore METRO-------------------18.2-----------------------44,970

Chicago Purple Line-----------------6.3-(24 in rush hours)------42,355

Glasgow--------------------------10.4------------------------39,698

Cleveland Red Line-----------------31------------------------26,000

Palma------------------------------8.3-----------------------5,000

[Andrewjm3D]

Nice try, any of us could find transit lines with less usage. That doesn't prove Sheppard is a heavily used line, only that those you showes us also have low ridership.

Most people don't know this but the city subsidies each average TTC trip by $1. Each ride on the Sheppard line however cost the city $8. That subway line is a drain on the system. These are the facts Ford fails to mention, and the facts supporters of a useless subway like MikeToronto would rather just ignore or sweep under the carpet.

[Andrewjm3D]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

And that is just what Scarborough residents currently do with the SRT. With the Sheppard LRT, the transfer issue will again force Scarborough riders to transfer more than any other residents in the city.
Of course not that many are going to be transferring, as they will be in their cars anyway. Deterred from taking transit due to all the stupid transfers where there should not be transfers.

Boo Hoo Mike, poor Scarborough. That is such a B.S comment. If I need to get downtown if I don't take my bike I need to transfer from one form of transit (streetcar) onto another (Subway) poor me, Wah! People in Scarborough live in a very low density area. the fact that you have the Bloor line, and will soon have an Eglington LRT line, and a Sheppard LRT line is something you should be happy about. Or do you think it would be better Ford blows all of our cash on a few subway stops for Scarborough and ignores the rest of the city? Poor poor Scarborough. I wish we could de-amalgamte from you people and see how much you are all willing to cough up in way of taxes for your underused subway.

[Andrewjm3D]

Originally Posted by Bassic Lab

Are the existing Sheppard Subway tunnels large enough to accomodate the LRV vehicles that Toronto will use on the other routes? Ignoring the issue with rail gauge (I suppose that the broad gauge streetcars could still form longer consists) for the time being. If Sheppard could form a single line with, like what Eglinton is shaping up to be, underground and surface operation then it could work pretty well. Anything that requires a transfer from LRT to Subway just seems problematic. I mean, would a typical user particularly enjoy taking a bus to the Sheppard LRT, the LRT to the Sheppard Subway, the Sheppard Subway to the Yonge Subway, then the Yonge Subway to downtown. That just seems like an overly burdensome number of transfers for a daily commute.

That's a really good question. I'm not sure if they are tall enough but it would be a great idea if they could remove the subway trains and just put the LRT's down there. The platforms are much shorter on that line then on the other two main lines but I bet they could still support a three car LRT. As for the amount of transfers. A DRL would fix that. Also anybody leaving STC to go to the Yonge line is going well out of there way to get downtown. Even when they get to the Yonge line, good luck getting on a train during rush hour.

[dleung]

Exactly. To put the 47,700 daily ridership in perspective, the Yonge and Bloor lines combined have 1.2 million daily passengers. It's especially disingenious of Miketoronto, given that I JUST posted ridership stats for skytrain in Vancouver which far exceed that of the Sheppard or Spadina extensions.

I really wonder why residents from Etobicoke, Brampton, Mississauga, etc aren't more vocal about their sheer lack of connectivity to the rest of the metro.

[Andrewjm3D]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

Think the Sheppard subway is underused? Think again.

Sheppard Subway---------------6.5------------------------47,700

Younge University 714,210
Bloor Danforth 495,280

Kind of makes the Sheppard line seem like a bit of a joke eh? Even if it doubled capacity is it worth dumping all of our funds on such an underused line? Not to mention adding even more people onto a line that could soon be pushing 1,000,000 riders a day? DRL now, Sheppard LRT or nothing.

[Andrewjm3D]

Originally Posted by dleung

Exactly.
I really wonder why residents from Etobicoke, Brampton, Mississauga, etc aren't more vocal about their sheer lack of connectivity to the rest of the metro.

That sad thing is most of them don't care, and for those that do many were getting their facts from our idiot mayor and his band of liars. They've been pretty much lambasted with his fear mongering over LRT's. He still calls them streetcars in public, or even funnier tells people to look at St.Clair Ave and expect the same on their multi-laned big box avenues. According to Ford anything that may ad a minute or two to a car commute is evil. He never blames the driver for traffic but loves to blame the TTC. I still shake my head when I hear of people defending him, or others like Mike perpetuating misinformation about the system or completely ignoring the facts.

[miketoronto]

The point of the stats was to show that the Sheppard subway is not really under achieving in ridership.

I could not find stats for each line. But the fact of the matter is you can take 6.5 km stretches of subway lines in NYC and many other cities, and they would either carry the same or less amount of riders as Sheppard does each day.

The fact is that at 6.5 km and only being half built, the Sheppard subway has strong ridership, and it is hardly low ridership of a failure.

It is only a failure in the eyes of Toronto advocates with an LRT agenda, and who think subways have to be overcrowded to be a success. They would freak at the subways in NYC which operate almost empty for the last few km's of their routes.

[miketoronto]

Originally Posted by dleung

Exactly. To put the 47,700 daily ridership in perspective, the Yonge and Bloor lines combined have 1.2 million daily passengers. It's especially disingenious of Miketoronto, given that I JUST posted ridership stats for skytrain in Vancouver which far exceed that of the Sheppard or Spadina extensions.

I really wonder why residents from Etobicoke, Brampton, Mississauga, etc aren't more vocal about their sheer lack of connectivity to the rest of the metro.

And you know that the Toronto subway did not start off with ridership like that?
In fact the Danforth subway east of Yonge did not start off with much more ridership than the Sheppard subway did.

Ridership builds up over time.

Nice try, any of us could find transit lines with less usage. That doesn't prove Sheppard is a heavily used line, only that those you showes us also have low ridership.

Most people don't know this but the city subsidies each average TTC trip by $1. Each ride on the Sheppard line however cost the city $8. That subway line is a drain on the system. These are the facts Ford fails to mention, and the facts supporters of a useless subway like MikeToronto would rather just ignore or sweep under the carpet.

Its called public transit for a reason. And the subsidy will come down as ridership grows, and if the system was extended all the way to STC as originally planned, it would probably also be pulling in a profit like the other lines.

[Andrewjm3D]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

The point of the stats was to show that the Sheppard subway is not really under achieving in ridership.

I could not find stats for each line. But the fact of the matter is you can take 6.5 km stretches of subway lines in NYC and many other cities, and they would either carry the same or less amount of riders as Sheppard does each day.

Your wrong again! It costs the city of Toronto $8 per rider on that line. It runs a deficit of over $10,000,000 each year. If you don't think that's underachieving I don't know what is. This is what happens when you build the wrong form of transportation in the wrong area. Even the most generous studies showed that a completed line would still run a deficit each year for many many decades to come. Like I said if Scarborough wants to separate, and pay for it's own underused subway then feel free.

[Troll]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

Think the Sheppard subway is underused? Think again.

Subway Route-----------------Length in KM--------------Daily Weekday Ridership

Turin------------------------------13.2----------------------90,000

Chicago Green Line-----------------33------------------------70,397

Chicago Orange Line----------------20.1-----------------------59,044

Sheppard Subway---------------6.5------------------------47,700

Baltimore METRO-------------------18.2-----------------------44,970

Chicago Purple Line-----------------6.3-(24 in rush hours)------42,355

Glasgow--------------------------10.4------------------------39,698

Cleveland Red Line-----------------31------------------------26,000

Palma------------------------------8.3-----------------------5,000

nice dude.. i can cherry pick lines from cities with larger subway systems or smaller populations than toronto too. you really pulled back the curtain on this one.

[miketoronto]

Originally Posted by Andrewjm3D

Boo Hoo Mike, poor Scarborough. That is such a B.S comment. If I need to get downtown if I don't take my bike I need to transfer from one form of transit (streetcar) onto another (Subway) poor me, Wah! People in Scarborough live in a very low density area. the fact that you have the Bloor line,

Make all the excuses you want. At the end of the day, it is transit which loses out due to people making comments like you. At the end of the day Scarborough residents will just drive.

You think people in my neighbourhood care if they take transit? No they don't. Transit requires them to make needless transfers (SRT to subway) and takes too long, so they just drive. If transit can't compete it will simply lose out and our city is worse off because of it.

I guess low density North York did not need a subway up to Finch.
That should have been an LRT in the middle of the road.

[Andrewjm3D]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

A
Its called public transit for a reason. And the subsidy will come down as ridership grows, and if the system was extended all the way to STC as originally planned, it would probably also be pulling in a profit like the other lines.

So Toronto should waste all of it's money so a very small handful of people in a very sparsely populated section of the city can have a subway? I'd call that stupid transit. Really if you think that's a good plan then I can see why you back Ford.

[miketoronto]

Originally Posted by Andrewjm3D

Your wrong again! It costs the city of Toronto $8 per rider on that line. It runs a deficit of over $10,000,000 each year. If you don't think that's underachieving I don't know what is. This is what happens when you build the wrong form of transportation in the wrong area. Even the most generous studies showed that a completed line would still run a deficit each year for many many decades to come. Like I said if Scarborough wants to separate, and pay for it's own underused subway then feel free.

So whats your point? Transit is public for a reason, it does not need to run a profit.
Are you aware that in Europe, transit systems are lucky to recover 30% of costs from fares, let alone the recovery Toronto is able to achieve?

The University subway used to not operate on Sunday's. But today we would be hard pressed to say that is not an important subway.
Sometimes things take time, and the Sheppard subway is still carrying a ton for such a short line.
Vastly more than the 14,000 who used to take the bus in the same stretch.

[miketoronto]

Originally Posted by Andrewjm3D

So Toronto should waste all of it's money so a very small handful of people in a very sparsely populated section of the city can have a subway? I'd call that stupid transit. Really if you think that's a good plan then I can see why you back Ford.

It shows you never come to Scarborough. Sparsely populated, are you joking me?
Scarborough is denser than most American cities, and that includes all the lower density stuff that is on the fringe of Scarborough, let alone Sheppard, which is lined with high-density housing.

Someone needs to educate himself on Toronto transit history. Toronto's transit success came not from punishing low density areas, but by building transit and providing high quality service to the suburbs.
Under your assumptions, Sheppard would not even have a bus route, as you are making the same arguments Chicago used not to extend transit to suburbs which are denser than Scarborough.

[Andrewjm3D]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

Make all the excuses you want. At the end of the day, it is transit which loses out due to people making comments like you. At the end of the day Scarborough residents will just drive.

You think people in my neighbourhood care if they take transit? No they don't. Transit requires them to make needless transfers (SRT to subway) and takes too long, so they just drive. If transit can't compete it will simply lose out and our city is worse off because of it.

I guess low density North York did not need a subway up to Finch.
That should have been an LRT in the middle of the road.

I love how you throw out statements without thinking how easily they can backfire on you. The line up to Finch was built during a time when the TTC was heavily subsided by all levels of government. It also acted as a major hub for all of York Region, a much more populated area then Durham east of Scarborough. Finch Station has the highest number of people going through it after Union.

You make it sound as though for TTC riders in Scarborough driving is a choice. If it was and your argument was true than why are they not driving already with all those terrible(1-2) transfers? There number of transfers will not change with LRT. I suppose if an LRT goes in everybody in Scarborough will win the lottery and go out and buy cars.

Seriously, the Fordites and the Subway campers have no facts, figures, and feel as though they are entitled to something which clearly the numbers show they don't need. Subways are needed closer to the core then here Mike. LRT's are perfect for the burbs. You really need to educate yourself on the numbers much like our mayor and his shrinking circle of jerks.

Sheppard and Kennedy

[Andrewjm3D]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

It shows you never come to Scarborough. Sparsely populated, are you joking me?
Scarborough is denser than most American cities, and that includes all the lower density stuff that is on the fringe of Scarborough, let alone Sheppard, which is lined with high-density housing.

Someone needs to educate himself on Toronto transit history. Toronto's transit success came not from punishing low density areas, but by building transit and providing high quality service to the suburbs.
Under your assumptions, Sheppard would not even have a bus route, as you are making the same arguments Chicago used not to extend transit to suburbs which are denser than Scarborough.

I never come to Scarborough? Ha, I've been to your neck of the woods often, too often. Enough to know there are other regions of the city worse off transit wise then the only section of town you seemed to be concerned with. What American cities are less dense then Scarborough? Watch me I can throw out random comments and pass them off as fact as well. A trait you may have picked up from Ford.

If we build subways the private sector will pay for them.