The Great Canadian Transit Thread

[vid]

Originally Posted by isaidso

Why is it that Montreal can build subways, Beijing can build subways, Mexico City can build subways, London can build subways, Vancouver can build subways, but Toronto can't?

Honestly, just get the darn things built. If these other cities can find the money, our politicians aren't trying hard enough. Raise my taxes! I don't care, just start building them please! LRT is NOT good enough.

It isn't that Rob Ford wants a subway, it's where.

Also, "most Torontonians" don't want more taxes. But in Thunder Bay's experience, those "we don't want more taxes" types never represent a majority or even a plurality.

[dleung]

Originally Posted by Wharn

First of all, you may want to check on your numbers. I find that 60 million figure a little dubious, to say the least. Secondly, The Toronto numbers don't really account for future growth spurred by transit lines, they just pretty much assume current trends. And the current trends for Scarborough are rubbish.

The projected figures for Toronto's ridership is for 2031; the ones for Vancouver are 2041... but that alone won't make the UBC line over 5 times more effective than the Sheppard subway. The 60million figure is based on the projected daily ridership difference between "best bus" and "RRT" (~200,000), times the standard multiplier of 300 for daily-to-annual conversion (since weekend riderships are lower). Taken from the below documents:

Originally Posted by nname

The latest version of the seven alternatives being considered:

RRT LRT1 LRT2 Combo1 Combo2 BRT BestBus

The latest projection for RRT is 322,000 weekday riders by 2041... hmm....

Originally Posted by isaidso

Why is it that Montreal can build subways, Beijing can build subways, Mexico City can build subways, London can build subways, Vancouver can build subways, but Toronto can't?

It's because Toronto's too busy throwing away its billions on palatial subway stations in far-flung office parks and low-ridership corridors better served by LRT, and union salaries to drive trains that could have been automated. In Vancouver we don't have money for that kind of fun and games, so we have elevated tracks with 40-metre platforms, and buses for corridors that have more ridership than most subway lines in the US.

[dleung]

More numbers for better perspective. Basically compared to the colossal waste of funds called the Spadina extension, the Sheppard extension will be 2-3 times MORE wasteful.

Existing Lines ---------------------------------------- Cost ---------- Cost/km -------------------- Contribution to Annual Ridership

2009 - Canada Line (Vancouver) --------------------- $2.0 billion ---- $108 million/km ------------- 38 million
2006 - Orange Line Extension (Montreal) ------------ $0.75 billion --- $143 million/km ------------- 18 million
2002 - Millenium Line (Vancouver) ------------------- $1.1 billion ----- $54 million/km -------------- 27 million
Existing - 99B bus route (Vancouver) -------------------------------------------------------------- 17 million
2002 - Sheppard Subway (Toronto) ----------------- $1.0 billion ----- $146 million/km ------------ 14 million


Proposed or U/C ----------------------------------------- Cost ------ Cost/km -------------------- Projected Contribution to Annual Ridership

Construction - Spadina Extension (Toronto) -------- $2.7 billion ---- $302 million/km -------------- 24 million (2018)
Proposed - Sheppard Extension (Toronto) ---------- $3.25 billion --- $406 million/km ------------- 12.2 million (2031)
Proposed - LRT option (Toronto) ------------------- $1 billion -------------------------------------- 7.7 million (2031)
Proposed - UBC Extension (Vancouver) ------------- $3.2 billion ---- $267 million/km -------------- 60 million (2041)
Proposed - LRT option (Vancouver) ----------------- $1.1 billion ------------------------------------ 9 million (2041)

[sober2ndthought]

Originally Posted by Wharn

Toronto has contracted the dreaded "London, Ontario Syndrome (L.O.S.)". That is, its politicians no longer look at very long-term benefits when planning public projects, the inhabitants become too apathetic or retarded to care, and everything gets boiled down to a cost and what best serves current needs.

Why is it called the L.O.S., you ask? Look at our LRT plans. Look at our expressway plans. Look at our downtown revitalization plans. The same sort of logic that's dominated the Great Toronto Transit Debate also underpins all of our (incomplete) projects.

The problem with that argument is that not matter what even looking down the line the purposed Subway lines in Toronto really make little sense. The purpose of these lines will likely remain a shuttle service which takes far flung commuters in the suburbs to there nearest Subway or GO Train station for a trip downtown or shuttle commuters from the subway or GO Train a short trip to their ultimate destination. (Remember the plan also includes two-way all day frequent GO train service as well)

That is the point of Transit City. It is not meant to be entirely a Rapid Transit option rather it is meant to be a feeder-distributor system. A Subway is over kill for that kind of a system and it will always run at a loss no matter how far out it is built.

As for the future, it is likely what will be warranted are two new subway lines which are routed towards the core and eventually will expand into the suburbs. The Downtown Relief Line is probably the best example of what I am talking about. That is really where subway money should be spent, in fact the previous administration did discuss building this line.

[The_Architect]

Originally Posted by isaidso

LRT is NOT good enough.

Is that you Rob?

Actually on the Sheppard and Finch lines, LRT is exactly what's good enough. If they built a subway, it wouldn't pay for itself.

[Echowinds]

Are there any plans to develop high density TODs around the Spadina expansion/Sheppard subway stations? I mean, if there's currently nothing around there, isn't it obvious to build stuff around them considering how fast growing the GTA is? It simply makes sense to build mixed-use towers around these stations that are surrounded by fields, low-density housing, parking lots, and warehouses.

[miketoronto]

Originally Posted by Echowinds

Are there any plans to develop high density TODs around the Spadina expansion/Sheppard subway stations? I mean, if there's currently nothing around there, isn't it obvious to build stuff around them considering how fast growing the GTA is? It simply makes sense to build mixed-use towers around these stations that are surrounded by fields, low-density housing, parking lots, and warehouses.

Of course. Vaughan already has plans for a suburban CBD around the northern end of the subway extension.

Also, the housing in Vaughan can't really be called low-density. The housing type and small lots, mean the housing is more akin to the kind around the Bloor Danforth subway, just without the good design in them or the neighbourhoods.

This subway is going to be the push needed to get more frequent local bus service in the area and really attract people to transit.

[Tony]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

Also, the housing in Vaughan can't really be called low-density. The housing type and small lots, mean the housing is more akin to the kind around the Bloor Danforth subway, just without the good design in them or the neighbourhoods.

Not even close to being truthful.

Only the development blocks designed and built after around 1995 have any resemblance to the residential densities found along the Bloor-Danforth subway line. This would equate to roughly 6 full development blocks vs. 12 or so sprawly, clearly low-density residential blocks already in existence prior to 1995.

This subway is going to be the push needed to get more frequent local bus service in the area and really attract people to transit.

Given what the area looks like now and the prevailing attitude of your typical Vaughan citizen, I highly doubt anything substantial will come out of this subway extension or Vaughan Corporate Centre.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by The_Architect

Is that you Rob?

Oh please. Since when does being pro subway mean you support Rob Ford? Toronto politics has become a polarized joke and your comment belongs in McCarthy era USA. What's next, accusing me of loving Adolf Hitler because I like Nazi architecture?

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by dleung

It's because Toronto's too busy throwing away its billions on palatial subway stations in far-flung office parks and low-ridership corridors better served by LRT, and union salaries to drive trains that could have been automated. In Vancouver we don't have money for that kind of fun and games, so we have elevated tracks with 40-metre platforms, and buses for corridors that have more ridership than most subway lines in the US.

No, it's because subways are still quite far down the list of priorities in Toronto. There's little political will to get it done, a lot of government waste, and short sighted planning that will come come to haunt us 20 years from now.

Toronto should have a subway on Queen, Eglinton, and Sheppard: in that order. That we're talking about maybe 1 on Eglinton and that's it is very worrisome. It's like the lost Lastman years all over again.

Regarding elevated tracks, we're not Vancouver. You wait for transit above ground in -10C or worse.

[The_Architect]

Originally Posted by isaidso

Oh please. Since when does being pro subway mean you support Rob Ford? Toronto politics has become a polarized joke and your comment belongs in McCarthy era USA. What's next, accusing me of loving Adolf Hitler because I like Nazi architecture?

Twisting my words and creating a ridiculous hyperbole? It IS you!

I'm pro subway where it makes sense. Not Sheppard or Finch. Your wording makes you sound like Ford.

[Andrewjm3D]

In all honesty, the Shephard line should be completed as a subway but at a very low priority. It never should have been a subway in the first place but seeing as that's how it was started they may as well finish the line. Thanks to the big screw up by Lastman, and Harris's bad move around the same time Eglington which should have been subway will now need to be LRT. The Transit City plan was created to deal with the fact mistakes were made and this is the best solution to provide rapid transit to areas that need it. Finch should never be a subway, and burrying an LRT on Eglington through Scarborough and Etobicoke is such a waste of money. The only subway that should be on the table right now should be the DRL.

Last month I needed to travel from my place in the core to Scarborough Town centre during morning rush hour. It took me only 29 minutes from my front door to the mall. That same day I needed to travel from my place over to a friends on the other side of the core, about 7km and it took 40mins. For those in the burbs that keep bitching about being treated like second class citizens you really need to get your facts straight. If there is anywhere in the metro area that needs more subways it's the downtown, not out in Big Boxville.

[isaidso]

^^ I agree. Sheppard never should have been built first, Queen and Eglinton should have gone before it. It's only because Sheppard is already there that it makes sense to finish it. All 3 must be done.

Originally Posted by vid

Also, "most Torontonians" don't want more taxes. But in Thunder Bay's experience, those "we don't want more taxes" types never represent a majority or even a plurality.

How do you know that Torontonians won't accept taxation to pay for transit? No one wants to pay more, but things cost money. We needed an enlarged airport and we're paying substantial airport fees to cover the cost. Toronto needs an enlarged subway. What we need is leadership at City Hall that recognizes what's in the long term interest of this growing city and stays the course.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by The_Architect

Your wording makes you sound like Ford.

Your wording makes you sound like Joseph McCarthy and characteristic of a lynch mob. You should ask questions before jumping to conclusions. No where have I said that Sheppard should get built first. NO WHERE!

[The_Architect]

Originally Posted by isaidso

Your wording makes you sound like Joseph McCarthy and characteristic of a lynch mob. You should ask questions before jumping to conclusions. No where have I said that Sheppard should get built first. NO WHERE!

There you go with the hyperbole again!

[Andrewjm3D]

I think they should just hold off all together with the Sheppard line and deal with other areas first. Moving people from Scarborough Town Centre to North York is not a priority. When the people on Sheppard see how well it works on Eglington and Finch they may change their tunes. Right now thanks to Ford and perhaps their own stupidity they thing they will end up with a St.Clair type system. In their minds Sheppard is as narrow and urban as St Claire as well which is laughable.

For those who voted for Ford and are now not getting the transit they wanted they only have themselves to blame. Compromises could have been made to provide areas with the transit they may have liked through rational discussions. Instead you had a mayor who was unwilling to listen, learn, or compromise forcing council to choose between one of two options. the funded Transit City, or the un-funded Ford Fairytale plan.

[The_Architect]

Originally Posted by Andrewjm3D

In all honesty, the Shephard line should be completed as a subway but at a very low priority. It never should have been a subway in the first place but seeing as that's how it was started they may as well finish the line. Thanks to the big screw up by Lastman, and Harris's bad move around the same time Eglington which should have been subway will now need to be LRT. The Transit City plan was created to deal with the fact mistakes were made and this is the best solution to provide rapid transit to areas that need it. Finch should never be a subway, and burrying an LRT on Eglington through Scarborough and Etobicoke is such a waste of money. The only subway that should be on the table right now should be the DRL.

Last month I needed to travel from my place in the core to Scarborough Town centre during morning rush hour. It took me only 29 minutes from my front door to the mall. That same day I needed to travel from my place over to a friends on the other side of the core, about 7km and it took 40mins. For those in the burbs that keep bitching about being treated like second class citizens you really need to get your facts straight. If there is anywhere in the metro area that needs more subways it's the downtown, not out in Big Boxville.

Agreed, the Eglinton West subway was already under construction, and to save money they bury what is already dug???

Eglinton is the only one (well, and the DRL, which I read is actually back on the table) that should be a subway, and the only reason Sheppard would have a subway would be to extend the stubway to STC so it doesn't look so stupid. You're right it shouldn't have been done in the first place.

The only other line I can think of to make everything more connected would be to have a North-South LRT line in Etobicoke to connect the Bloor line to the Eglinton/Finch LRT, and maybe down to the waterfront.

Of course, if Toronto reached 1,000,000 people early in the 19th century like Chicago did, we'd have a bigger subway system and wouldn't even need to have this stupid discussion.

[Andrewjm3D]

there is no reason why above ground LRT lines should prevent subways from being built in the future. Though I'm sure LRT's will be a proven successful mode of transport.

[The_Architect]

Originally Posted by Andrewjm3D

there is no reason why above ground LRT lines should prevent subways from being built in the future. Though I'm sure LRT's will be a proven successful mode of transport.

The Eglinton line specifically was purposely made to be easily converted to a subway when it's needed. I'm more familiar with the older plan than the new one but that one was designed to be possibly turned into a subway in 4000 years when the ridership goes over the LRT capacity.

[Bassic Lab]

Originally Posted by Andrewjm3D

I think they should just hold off all together with the Sheppard line and deal with other areas first. Moving people from Scarborough Town Centre to North York is not a priority. When the people on Sheppard see how well it works on Eglington and Finch they may change their tunes. Right now thanks to Ford and perhaps their own stupidity they thing they will end up with a St.Clair type system. In their minds Sheppard is as narrow and urban as St Claire as well which is laughable.

For those who voted for Ford and are now not getting the transit they wanted they only have themselves to blame. Compromises could have been made to provide areas with the transit they may have liked through rational discussions. Instead you had a mayor who was unwilling to listen, learn, or compromise forcing council to choose between one of two options. the funded Transit City, or the un-funded Ford Fairytale plan.

Are the existing Sheppard Subway tunnels large enough to accomodate the LRV vehicles that Toronto will use on the other routes? Ignoring the issue with rail gauge (I suppose that the broad gauge streetcars could still form longer consists) for the time being. If Sheppard could form a single line with, like what Eglinton is shaping up to be, underground and surface operation then it could work pretty well. Anything that requires a transfer from LRT to Subway just seems problematic. I mean, would a typical user particularly enjoy taking a bus to the Sheppard LRT, the LRT to the Sheppard Subway, the Sheppard Subway to the Yonge Subway, then the Yonge Subway to downtown. That just seems like an overly burdensome number of transfers for a daily commute.