Calgary Public Transit II

[UofC.engineer]

Originally Posted by frinkprof

Nothing is/was ever more frustrating than seeing a train coming in, from a fair distance I might add, and then having to proceed to use the ridiculous and overbuilt [climb up the huge set of stairs/escalator=>long corridor/empty space past the ticket machines=>descend another huge set of stairs] route only to miss by a mile the train that would have been a piece of cake to catch in any other circumstance.

U really gotta book it bro, no lollygaging.

[Radley77]

Originally Posted by frinkprof

Would it not have to be a sweetheart and/or publicly subsidized leasing scheme though? The retail components of the old south and NE line stations shut down years ago because the operators couldn't make a go of it and there's been very little interest in the venture since.

I had highgraded some of the stations awhile ago. There might be a handful of stations that wouldn't require subsidies because they would have the ridership to support it.

[MalcolmTucker]

A big issue would be: what stations have the utilities necessary to support more than a tuck shop? The cost of putting in a bathroom could very well be more expensive than all the rent you would ever make.

[5seconds]

I wonder how hard/expensive it would be to have underground walkways leading to the platforms? It occurs to me that the old stations had to be as tall and built-up as they were to be able to get over the trains and the wires etc. But if there was a ramp at one end of the platforms, that lowered 8 feet or so and branched off under both tracks to allow people to walk under the tracks. No level crossings and no expensive buildings. Not sure if underpasses like that would end up costing more though.

[freeweed]

Originally Posted by UofC.engineer

I say bad example because he isn't paying attention and the station doesn't have crossing arms.

Pretty sure there's no such thing as a "good" example and that every single pedestrian ever hit by a C-Train wasn't paying attention.

These things are huge, there are gates specifically designed to make you think "hey, train crossing here" and in many (most?) cases you actually have to operate a gate, noise and lights go off, and the trains are not exactly moving at a great rate of speed. Getting hit by the LRT is basically proof that you're either a) really, really stupid or b) really, really inattentive. Short of idiot-proof physical barriers there's pretty much nothing that can be done to prevent people from walking in front of a moving train.

[UofC.engineer]

Originally Posted by freeweed

Pretty sure there's no such thing as a "good" example and that every single pedestrian ever hit by a C-Train wasn't paying attention.

These things are huge, there are gates specifically designed to make you think "hey, train crossing here" and in many (most?) cases you actually have to operate a gate, noise and lights go off, and the trains are not exactly moving at a great rate of speed. Getting hit by the LRT is basically proof that you're either a) really, really stupid or b) really, really inattentive. Short of idiot-proof physical barriers there's pretty much nothing that can be done to prevent people from walking in front of a moving train.

Yes, yes and definately yes, I absolutely agree with you. But as I said before there is always going to be that one idiot that is in a hurry, ducks under the arms and trys to catch the train. That one guy out of a million people that idiot proofing doesn't work on.

[MalcolmTucker]

I believe a few years ago there was the death of the blind, deaf woman at Heritage, which the new degree of barriers should prevent.

[freeweed]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

I believe a few years ago there was the death of the blind, deaf woman at Heritage, which the new degree of barriers should prevent.

Wow, calling someone "blind, deaf and dumb" is usually a politer (yet snider) way of saying "complete idiot". I guess on the presumption that someone who is both blind and deaf isn't trying to navigate an urban metropolis on their own. How do they cross the street safely? I've known many blind people, and their dogs aren't trained anywhere near well enough to cover for lack of hearing as well.

[fusili]

Just a point to consider: Hundreds of thousands of people cross the tracks everyday through the downtown across 7th avenue. No bells or crossing arms there.

[srperrycgy]

Originally Posted by Radley77

I had highgraded some of the stations awhile ago. There might be a handful of stations that wouldn't require subsidies because they would have the ridership to support it.

Where did you get the station ridership data from? I've been looking for this for many years.

[Radley77]

Originally Posted by srperrycgy

Where did you get the station ridership data from? I've been looking for this for many years.

This is old info unfortunately. I prepared this awhile ago; it may be archived at:

http://www.archive.org/web/web.php

The most recent data I could find was at:

http://web.archive.org/web/20100704212131/http://www.calgarytransit.com/html/lrt_ridership.html

and here is some older info:

http://web.archive.org/web/19990224173026/http://www.calgarytransit.com/html/statistics.html

[srperrycgy]

Ok, thats the data that I had last used. I think a FOIP request to CT is in order.

[MalcolmTucker]

Yeah, should only be the straight $15 bucks to get it, that is - if it is collected anymore!

[UofC.engineer]

I went to the SETWAY open house today in Riverbend and talked to Chris Jordan about a few things discussed here on this thread.

1. I told him my concern that building a BRT transitway might cause a time delay for the overall construction of the SE LRT. He said that currently planners want to move as many people as possible from the SE to DT with the limited resources and that higher ridership along the 302 line will induce a transit culture within the SE which will segway nicely to LRT.

2. I also mentioned that Ottawa is facing a challenging conversion of transitway to LRT track. He said that if a BRT transitway is constructed none of it will overlap with LRT ROW and instead be constructed adjacent to the planned LRT ROW. He also mentioned that when the Ottawa transitway was constructed planners didn't take into account a conversion to LRT.

3. And lastly I brought up the topic of operating costs of LRT vs. BRT. Chris stated that overall BRT is cheaper to operate; however as ridership increases there is a threshold where the cost/trip of BRT is more expensive than LRT.

[frinkprof]

^Interesting. That answers a lot of my questions, except for one:

How much are we spending versus what gains will be achieved in terms of travel time and capacity improvements? If the gains aren't appreciable, especially given the capital being spent, may as well wait to build LRT.

[Wooster]

I've had a couple of chats with the planning team this past week.

It sounds like their preferred option would see more or less a dedicated busway between downtown and South Hill. South of that the route would run along regular roads. This investment would be about $400m and would reduce travel times from about 70 minutes from Seton to downtown to about 50 minutes. An $800m investment of a busway all the way down to Seton only shaves off another 5 minutes at double the cost.

They believe this interim solution would bring transit ridership from a paltry 3000 on the 302 now to about 15,000 by 2019. It would rise to about 29,000 by 2029 if nothing else was done (due mostly to high population growth in the deep SE). 2029 would be the point of saturation at which we would need to move to a full LRT. They estimate a total cost of $2 billion (which seems low to me), which includes the $400m already invested. That figure does not include LRT fleet (not sure if it includes maintenance/storage facility) By 2029, SELRT ridership would be in the 55,000 range. Trip would be 35 minutes from Seton.

Low floor LRT is the preferred option ultimately. They are fully considering the likelihood of connecting this line to the future NCLRT.

[UofC.engineer]

Originally Posted by frinkprof

^Interesting. That answers a lot of my questions, except for one:

How much are we spending versus what gains will be achieved in terms of travel time and capacity improvements? If the gains aren't appreciable, especially given the capital being spent, may as well wait to build LRT.

Apparently they only have around $400 million dollars left of the green trip fund, but that money won't come until a later time.

There was a board at the open house which displayed travel times from Seton to DT. If I remember correctly it went like this:

BRT with mixed Traffic: 56mins

BRT on Transitway: 40-45mins (I can't remember which)

LRT: 34mins

All these times seem way too short!

From Mckenzie Towne to DT it takes 45-50mins on the BRT during the middle of the day.

And LRT from Seton -> DT in 34mins??? NO way! The route is 25km long and there are 14 stations planned. It takes about 30 mins from Somerset -> DT and the route is only 19km long with 11 stations until DT.

[UofC.engineer]

Thanks Wooster! I trust your numbers better than mine. I'm sure the display board will be posted online shortly.

[DoubleK]

Originally Posted by UofC.engineer

2. I also mentioned that Ottawa is facing a challenging conversion of transitway to LRT track. He said that if a BRT transitway is constructed none of it will overlap with LRT ROW and instead be constructed adjacent to the planned LRT ROW. He also mentioned that when the Ottawa transitway was constructed planners didn't take into account a conversion to LRT.

This is a huge misconception about the dedicated Busway. Everyone has this notion that you can build a road then in the future slap some rails on it and Bob's your uncle.

In reality there is very little to no synergies between the civil works required for a road and a LRT line. Basically bridges and that's about it. Acquiring the right of way now spreads that cost over time, which is a positive.

[fusili]

Originally Posted by DoubleK

This is a huge misconception about the dedicated Busway. Everyone has this notion that you can build a road then in the future slap some rails on it and Bob's your uncle.

In reality there is very little to no synergies between the civil works required for a road and a LRT line. Basically bridges and that's about it. Acquiring the right of way now spreads that cost over time, which is a positive.

I would support building bridges and that is about it.