Halifax Stadium Discussion

[-Harlington-]

Just though id post these areas where we might see the stadium :


Burnside area:


Shannon Park area:


Dartmouth Crossing/quarry area:

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by Welkin

There are a number of studies that show that since there is not an infinite supply of entertainment dollars in a community, sporting events do tend to take dollars that would normally be spent on other forms of entertainment. Personally I don't see anything wrong with that.

I'm always up for an interesting read, if you may site anything. Just as the world's surface area is finite, as are our resources. We know there is a limit as to how much people can spend. An issue is, however, that Halifax's potential stadium isn't even pushing boundaries and the entire municipality is missing out on a market that does exist.

Originally Posted by Welkin

If I my wife and I choose to spend our money on a CFL game instead of taking in dinner and a movie (since we can't do both), that is just taking advantage of increased entertainment options.

I am 100% in favor of a new stadium for Halifax, but let's not get caught in a trap by promoting any major economic benefit. There are just too many studies that stadium opponents can use to show just the opposite. Fortunately the stadium they want to build won't be a major economic drain either.

I highly doubt that anyone coming to Halifax from out of town would leave themself in such a financial predicament, limited to a choice of either entertainment...or food.

It is much more likely that what you've described is applicable to those living in close proximatey to such an array of entertainment choices. Yes, on a whim I suppose HRM's population may be fine with just going to the stadium instead of going out to eat as well. Given our gluttonous culture though, I doubt the food industry's sufferableness in popularity. Pain is more likely to come in the form of higher food prices.

Are you very concerned for the local cinemas and theatres for some reason? A stadium won't stop people from going to the movies, nor will it phase theatre-goers.

Perhaps you're opposed to Halifax increasing its entertainment choices even more so, with the addition of theme parks? God forbid we compete with Moncton in this avenue.

Originally Posted by Welkin

Instead we need to focus on the non-economic aspects of a stadium such as building civic pride, a sense of civic unity and a sense of being part of something.

Civic pride comes after the accomplishment of construction. So, no, we do not need to instead focus on something that shall naturally develop (and then develop via planned marketing and advertisements) -- we need to stay focused on the stadium: its design, size, and location.

You are correct that stadiums do not turn into cash cows. They are risky investments that have potential for draining taxpayers well into the future. This is why design, size, and location are so vital.

[CorbeauNoir]

Originally Posted by Welkin

A new stadium and a CFL team will enhance the image of Halifax by making us appear more progressive and on the rise. It can't help but make us more attractive to potential companies that may want expand their businesses here. You could feel the civic pride growing after we landed the shipbuilding contract. It is time to keep that pride growing by adding a new stadium and a CFL team.

How is this not a substantial economic benefit, then?

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by RyeJay

Perhaps you're opposed to Halifax increasing its entertainment choices even more so, with the addition of theme parks? God forbid we compete with Moncton in this avenue.

What's wrong with theme parks!

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

What's wrong with theme parks!

Theme parks, Moncton has.

An economic advantage for the Acadian city.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by RyeJay

Theme parks, Moncton has.

An economic advantage for the Acadian city.

Only about 33% of the city is francophone. I wish you would stop calling it the Acadian Capital.

[cormiermax]

Dieppe is the Acadian Capital

[RyeJay]

I just said Acadian city...

I'm not claiming the people of Chiac are going to suddenly give New Brunswick the finger and form their own province and capital.

You can finely dissect the percentages to dismerit any adjectives someone may have in mind for what Moncton is, but the city's identity is certainly not defined by the current political boundaries. You cannot separate Moncton from Dieppe in this sense -- but you can pretend.

You want me to describe Moncton differently? Fine: theme parks is something the sprawled, box-mall city has. Congrats.

[Empire]

Originally Posted by RyeJay

I just said Acadian city...

I'm not claiming the people of Chiac are going to suddenly give New Brunswick the finger and form their own province and capital.

You can finely dissect the percentages to dismerit any adjectives someone may have in mind for what Moncton is, but the city's identity is certainly not defined by the current political boundaries. You cannot separate Moncton from Dieppe in this sense -- but you can pretend.

You want me to describe Moncton differently? Fine: theme parks is something the sprawled, box-mall city has. Congrats.

I didn't know there was a theme park in Moncton?

[Welkin]

[QUOTE=RyeJay;5562139]I'm always up for an interesting read, if you may site anything. Just as the world's surface area is finite, as are our resources. We know there is a limit as to how much people can spend. An issue is, however, that Halifax's potential stadium isn't even pushing boundaries and the entire municipality is missing out on a market that does exist.

There are a number of good sites on this subject. Here is one: http://news.illinois.edu/news/04/1117stadiums.html

In this report, two sports economics professors state that "Humphreys and colleague Dennis Coates, a professor of economics at the University of Maryland, Baltimore County, haven’t uncovered a single instance in which the presence of a professional sports team has been linked to a boost in the local economy.

“Our conclusion, and that of nearly all academic economists studying this issue, is that professional sports generally have little, if any, positive effect on a city’s economy,”


Here is a good one called "The Economics of Sports Facilities and Their Communities"

http://www.uwlax.edu/faculty/anderson/micro-principles/stadiums.pdf

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by Empire

I didn't know there was a theme park in Moncton?

You're aware of Crystal Palace and Magic Mountain. Call them what you wish.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Welkin

There are a number of good sites on this subject. Here is one: http://news.illinois.edu/news/04/1117stadiums.html

In this report, two sports economics professors state that "Humphreys and colleague Dennis Coates, a professor of economics at the University of Maryland, Baltimore County, haven’t uncovered a single instance in which the presence of a professional sports team has been linked to a boost in the local economy.

“Our conclusion, and that of nearly all academic economists studying this issue, is that professional sports generally have little, if any, positive effect on a city’s economy,”


Here is a good one called "The Economics of Sports Facilities and Their Communities"

http://www.uwlax.edu/faculty/anderson/micro-principles/stadiums.pdf

I would tend to agree when the studies are considering MLB, NFL, NHL and NBA teams for which owners are constantly holding cities at ransom to build more lavish sports venues. I actually admire Los Angeles for saying no to a lavish stadium and the NFL (even though I enjoy watching the NFL).

However, most people in the municipality are thinking in terms of a low cost stadium that could be expanded for the CFL. I don't think the "no economic benefit" argument holds when it means that the HRM must ignore every outdoor sports event held in Canada and a national sports league like the CFL with a relatively low salary cap.

[Empire]

Originally Posted by RyeJay

You're aware of Crystal Palace and Magic Mountain. Call them what you wish.

Yes I am aware of Crystal Palace and Magic Mountain.

[Welkin]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

I would tend to agree when the studies are considering MLB, NFL, NHL and NBA teams for which owners are constantly holding cities at ransom to build more lavish sports venues. I actually admire Los Angeles for saying no to a lavish stadium and the NFL (even though I enjoy watching the NFL).

However, most people in the municipality are thinking in terms of a low cost stadium that could be expanded for the CFL. I don't think the "no economic benefit" argument holds when it means that the HRM must ignore every outdoor sports event held in Canada and a national sports league like the CFL with a relatively low salary cap.

I think you are correct that HRM is going about this in the right direction with a low-cost stadium for outdoor sporting events and potential CFL expansion. Even though there will be little net economic benefit from building a stadium, since it is a low cost stadium the cost/benefit/risk ratio is quite low. Especially if Halifax gets a CFL team, HRM should be able to cover the bond payments on a new stadium with limited subsidies. When you consider the fact that Peyton Manning makes more money each year than the combined payroll of five CFL teams, the CFL should be played in stadiums like the one we hope they build in Halifax ($60-$90 million range) instead of the $500 million renovation in Vancouver, the $200 million stadium in Winnipeg and the proposed $500 million stadium in Regina. If we get a new stadium and a CFL team, at least we won't bankrupt Halifax down to junk bond status in the process.

[(CFL) THE 13TH MAN]

This is not what the public wants, it is what HRM`s steering committee wants!


HRM`s steering committee recommended their emabarrassing bare boned deficient small 14 thousand permanent seat stadium which has a horrible design and can only be expaned to only 25 or 27 thousand seats but only in the corners and endzones not between the goal lines and with only one concourse only on one side of the stadium that exactly has permanent washrooms and concession stands, and with absolutely no amenities, no skyboxes, no VIP lounges, no club seats, no restaurants all which you have to have in a stadium today to be viable to attract a potential profesional sports franchise owner and a major naming right partner which go hand and hand.

Their embarrassing 14 thousand permanent bare boned stadium will not attract a major sports franchise as an anchor tenant nor a naming right partner, so I don`t understand now HRM expects to attract any partners with this unattractive type of facility.

[Empire]

MonctonRad don't say a word!

[MonctonRad]

Who me!?!

I'm in enough trouble right now with RyeJay.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by Welkin

When you consider the fact that Peyton Manning makes more money each year than the combined payroll of five CFL teams, the CFL should be played in stadiums like the one we hope they build in Halifax ($60-$90 million range) instead of the $500 million renovation in Vancouver, the $200 million stadium in Winnipeg and the proposed $500 million stadium in Regina. If we get a new stadium and a CFL team, at least we won't bankrupt Halifax down to junk bond status in the process.

Going even further 'down market' with a stadium like Halifax is proposing just isn't going to fly in the CFL. The big market teams already have a tough time holding the attention in their marketplaces. If anything, the league is trying to achieve the semblance of 'major' league. That means stadia like what Winnipeg is building. Halifax doesn't have a hope in hell of attracting a CFL team with the current proposal. It's about up to par with US high school facilities. If this means the CFL remains at 8-10 teams (without Halifax), so be it.

Halifax needs to build a CFL appropriate stadium if it wants to play in that league. The CFL shouldn't go down market to accommodate Halifax.

[Welkin]

Originally Posted by isaidso

Going even further 'down market' with a stadium like Halifax is proposing just isn't going to fly in the CFL. The big market teams already have a tough time holding the attention in their marketplaces. If anything, the league is trying to achieve the semblance of 'major' league. That means stadia like what Winnipeg is building. Halifax doesn't have a hope in hell of attracting a CFL team with the current proposal. It's about up to par with US high school facilities. If this means the CFL remains at 8-10 teams (without Halifax), so be it.

Halifax needs to build a CFL appropriate stadium if it wants to play in that league. The CFL shouldn't go down market to accommodate Halifax.

I love the CFL but it is very far from 'major league' in terms of economics. There is not a team in the CFL that could afford a new stadium on their own without the millions in financial subsidies from local taxpayers. The Roughriders are by far the most economically successful CFL franchise and they only had revenue of $38 million, gate receipts $11.3 million and made a profit of $6.6 million. The debt service on a $200 million stadium (5% over 25 years) is over $14 million per year. So without a massive public subsidy, even the most successful CFL team would have a net loss of over $8 million per year if they had to build their own stadium.

Now the Riders are community owned and the community has determined that they want to financially subsidize the team. That is their choice as to how they want their taxes used. However, a team in Halifax will most likely be privately owned. You say that Halifax needs to build a 'major league' stadium in the $200 million range to attract a CFL team and owner. What you are really saying is that the taxpayers of Halifax need to spend $10-$15 million a year to subsidize a local, private, sports-entertainment company that has a third the revenue of a local Wal-Mart or Costco.

I don't know how other cities across Canada have justified spending $200 million plus on new CFL stadiums (or Regina's absurd plans to spend over $500 million) just so that they can pretend to be 'major league'. It has been pointed out several times on this forum by Fenwick and others that there are several very nice new college stadiums built down in the states that are CFL size and only cost $70-$90 million. The plain and simple fact is that the CFL is a small money league (which is one reason why I love it) and the economics are not the same as the NFL or NHL. Just because other cities are foolish with their taxpayers money, doesn't mean that Halifax has to follow the same path.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Welkin

What you are really saying is that the taxpayers of Halifax need to spend $10-$15 million a year to subsidize a local, private, sports-entertainment company that has a third the revenue of a local Wal-Mart or Costco.

And Halifax doesn't have a CFL team.

A $200M stadium is clearly far beyond what the city needs or can afford. I doubt that Regina will follow through on the $500M stadium plan. It is bad enough that here in Vancouver we just spent over $500M on a stadium roof with ten times the population to absorb the cost.