Halifax Stadium Discussion

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by c-way-dude

The Sierra Report says that a stadium needs to be easily expandable. If this stadium were designed with sunken lower decks that upper decks could be added to, then it would be a good investment. Otherwise, it would likely be better for the whole deal to collapse.

I think the Sierra phase 1 layout below with 16,000 between the goal-lines would work for the CFL (although 20,000 between the goal-lines would be better). The illustrated grandstand with 24 lower rows and 24 upper rows would be good on both sides between the goal-lines. A great start would be the 10,000 seat grandstand plus a 5,000 seat lower tier on the other side, which could have an upper tier added at some future date. Then corner seats could be added to get it up to 30,000 seats (if ever required). Such corner seats have a decent view of the field (better than endzone seats). Endzone seats could get it to 40,000 plus for special occasions. In my opinion, that would be a real multi-purpose stadium with good options for expansion.

PS: Still no real news - is there another public consultation planned?

[D-dog]

Confused... Has anyone who has attended one of these meetings mentioned the min capacity needed for a CFL team? How can they justify spending a single cent on a womans soccer stadium and not consider that a CFL team should be the ultimate goal!

[ILoveHalifax]

Yes,
I was at the last meeting at the forum and we called Conrad (I believe that is his name) over to our table and he assured us that it was able to be expanded to 28,000 seats for CFL.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by ILoveHalifax

Yes,
I was at the last meeting at the forum and we called Conrad (I believe that is his name) over to our table and he assured us that it was able to be expanded to 28,000 seats for CFL.

I think the problem is with how they plan to accomplish it. If a stadium has only 10,000 seats between the Canadian football goal-lines, 10,000 in the endzones and 8,000 in the corners then it won't be a practical CFL stadium. The total number of seats will meet the CFL requirements but the layout will be very poor.

The latest concept seems to show only slightly more than about 10,000 between the goal-lines (about 28 - 30 total rows from field to top, it is difficult to discern the exact number). Using 29 rows per grandstand, this would give about 10,300 between the 330 foot width of the Canadian football goal-lines. A good range would be 16,000 - 20,000, and is in line with the phase 1 recommendation.

The stadium architect Conrad doesn't seem to be pushing for a practical CFL stadium; he seems to be favouring an intimate soccer stadium, which won't do the HRM much good. The phase 1 recommended concept was far more practical for a CFL team (more sideline seats and fewer endzone seats).

[resetcbu1]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

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The stadium architect Conrad doesn't seem to be pushing for a practical CFL stadium; he seems to be favouring an intimate soccer stadium, which won't do the HRM much good. The phase 1 recommended concept was far more practical for a CFL team (more sideline seats and fewer endzone seats).

I am sure that the architect is not concerned about what the stadium is used for at all, so long as it is built and he gets paid. What other stake would he have in it?

I could be wrong but that's just what I think judging by what I've seen so for?

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by resetcbu1

I am sure that the architect is not concerned about what the stadium is used for at all, so long as it is built and he gets paid. What other stake would he have in it?

I could be wrong but that's just what I think judging by what I've seen so for?

I certainly was peeved when he stated that a large stadium will be a white elephant. I would have been less peeved if he said that a large stadium should be built in a cost effective manner. In my opinion, an intimate stadium that won't attract a CFL team will be a white elephant, no matter how small and intimate it is.

[resetcbu1]

Agreed 100%

It would be way more of a white elephant if it barely gets used and that is what is gonna happen if it's built too small to accomadate the events a city the size of HRM should be trying to attract , inculding and IMO the most important the CFL.

[Welkin]

This looks more like a new stadium for St. Marys rather than a potential CFL stadium. I assume the endzone seats are temporary, because they won't be needed after the FIFA Women's World Cup. Also, even for a soccer stadium this is odd. Why design many more seat rows in your endzone stands rather than your main grandstands? That does not make a lot of sense. IMO this is a CIS stadium, not a CFL stadium.

[c-way-dude]

It looks like a stadium for St. Mary's, and if it's built, it will be built at a location where St. Mary's has no interest in going. If that's not a white elephant, then what is?

[resetcbu1]

When are suposed to hear more about what's going on with this?

[sensiblestampsfan]

http://www.tulanestadium.com/

30,000 seater. $60M. Digging the layout (but would need to pull the seats out of endzones and put a 2nd deck above one of the suite levels. that cost could probably be offset by a sunken bowl - this looks to all be at grade.

[Empire]

I heard an interview with Mayoralty candidate Fred Connors on 95.7 (All News All The Time) and he sounded very positive and well rounded. He said that HRM has to focus on the positive because it is in ample supply.

When quizzed on whether a stadium was a good idea or not he replied emphatically that it would be a huge boost to the local economy and would have his full support.

[RyeJay]

I wonder about Fred Connors' position on stadium size, design, and location.

[Empire]

Originally Posted by RyeJay

I wonder about Fred Connors' position on stadium size, design, and location.

He implied that he would like to see a downtown location. He mentioned that he was recently in Pittsburgh and saw what a positive impact the stadium had because of its downtown location.

[Welkin]

Originally Posted by Empire

He implied that he would like to see a downtown location. He mentioned that he was recently in Pittsburgh and saw what a positive impact the stadium had because of its downtown location.

I don't know what positive economic impact Conner is talking about, but stadiums produce almost no positive economic tax growth and for the most part have to be subsidized annually by local governments. Pittsburgh's poor economic condition and near junk bond credit rating is directly related to the city's massive subsidies for the construction of both the Steelers and the Pirates stadiums. I cannot think of a single downtown stadium that has ever produced enough economic growth to justify the construction subsidy required to build the stadium. Of course the same thing can be said for libraries and schools. I am all in favor of building this stadium, just don't expect it to be an economic jolt to the city's coffers.

[fenwick16]

The following Request for Expressions of Interest has been posted on halifax.ca - http://www.halifax.ca/Stadium/index.html

Project Updates

Expression of Interest - Partnership Opportunities

Request for Expressions of Interest # E12-007 for Partnership Opportunities Multi-Use Stadium

Get in the Game

HRM has issued a call for Expressions of Interest in partnership opportunities for a proposed multi-use stadium. Regional Council has committed up to $20 million toward the construction of the proposed facility, and on December 6, 2011, directed staff to move forward to confirm partnership funding sources and begin negotiations with property owners for a site. This information will allow Council make a final decision on moving ahead to build a stadium for the municipality.

Proponents have until February 17, 2012 to make a submission and will be selected by project, based on qualifications, experience, services offered and other relevant considerations. Expressions of interest can range from the simple to the complex and can relate to one or either of the sites under consideration.

A Stadium Analysis has been underway since February 2011. Two phases of work were approved by Council to provide a detailed vision, preliminary design, possible site, capital cost and funding formula to help determine whether to proceed to develop a stadium.

A citizen-led Stadium Analysis Steering Committee was selected in May 2011 to oversee the process to develop and make recommendations on a potential stadium relative to achieving the FIFA Women’s World Cup Canada 2015 minimum standards. The Committee’s final Phase 2 report was presented to Council in December 2011.
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[someone123]

Originally Posted by Welkin

I don't know what positive economic impact Conner is talking about, but stadiums produce almost no positive economic tax growth and for the most part have to be subsidized annually by local governments. Pittsburgh's poor economic condition and near junk bond credit rating is directly related to the city's massive subsidies for the construction of both the Steelers and the Pirates stadiums. I cannot think of a single downtown stadium that has ever produced enough economic growth to justify the construction subsidy required to build the stadium. Of course the same thing can be said for libraries and schools. I am all in favor of building this stadium, just don't expect it to be an economic jolt to the city's coffers.

Yeah, a lot of people are very vague about "economic spinoffs". I suspect it's very rare for pro sports or stadiums to be generators in the sense of producing more economic growth than what is spent on them.

I do think however that there will be some local positive benefit, and that there would be advantages to putting the stadium in the core. I think it would be used more and it would be complemented by the existing hotels, bars, etc.

The Pittsburgh case seems to be quite different. There's no pro sports team and only $20M has been committed so far. A more analogous situation would be if people, say, wanted to spend $100M build a new arena and subsidize an NHL team.

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by Welkin

I don't know what positive economic impact Conner is talking about, but stadiums produce almost no positive economic tax growth and for the most part have to be subsidized annually by local governments. Pittsburgh's poor economic condition and near junk bond credit rating is directly related to the city's massive subsidies for the construction of both the Steelers and the Pirates stadiums. I cannot think of a single downtown stadium that has ever produced enough economic growth to justify the construction subsidy required to build the stadium. Of course the same thing can be said for libraries and schools. I am all in favor of building this stadium, just don't expect it to be an economic jolt to the city's coffers.

Your argument is cautionary against construction of a stadium at all, not just a downtown stadium.

The economic implications of an urban stadium would be concurrent with any sensible municipal approach to core densification. While using infrastructure already in existence, centralising our population, services, commercial, and even light industrial businesses will save us money far beyond our road maintenance.

Our health will improve from a lifestyle of less driving. The stadium is another venue for physical activity, obviously.

More services, both privately and publicly funded, will be supported by a larger population density and vice versa. A stadium is another asset in this sense. A well-used stadium, which is for what we're aiming, brings regular crowds of people...and their money. This satellite market, created by the stadium, can be tapped via hotels, restaurants, retail...

A stadium heightens the city's profile, granting access to a wider market for attracting business in the form of concerts, games, conventions, etc... The stadium adds to our resume.

I don't believe anyone on this forum claimed that a stadium would solve our municipal budget -- but it does encourage further growth and savings in other sectors, much of which is lost if we throw our 'community' stadium to a business park. Instead, a stadium should be positioned much more practically to bring more economic security to an urbanised region, by encouraging it to urbanise even more.

[Empire]

Originally Posted by RyeJay

Your argument is cautionary against construction of a stadium at all, not just a downtown stadium.

The economic implications of an urban stadium would be concurrent with any sensible municipal approach to core densification. While using infrastructure already in existence, centralising our population, services, commercial, and even light industrial businesses will save us money far beyond our road maintenance.

Our health will improve from a lifestyle of less driving. The stadium is another venue for physical activity, obviously.

More services, both privately and publicly funded, will be supported by a larger population density and vice versa. A stadium is another asset in this sense. A well-used stadium, which is for what we're aiming, brings regular crowds of people...and their money. This satellite market, created by the stadium, can be tapped via hotels, restaurants, retail...

A stadium heightens the city's profile, granting access to a wider market for attracting business in the form of concerts, games, conventions, etc... The stadium adds to our resume.

I don't believe anyone on this forum claimed that a stadium would solve our municipal budget -- but it does encourage further growth and savings in other sectors, much of which is lost if we throw our 'community' stadium to a business park. Instead, a stadium should be positioned much more practically to bring more economic security to an urbanised region, by encouraging it to urbanise even more.

I'm sure the economic impact that Connors was referring to was one of a wide spread effect rather than a specific money-making building.

Unfortunately, you have people like Watts saying that money spent at a stadium would only be recycled local money and every $ spent at a stadium would be a $ taken away from other local businesses like movie theatres..... How narrow

[Welkin]

Originally Posted by Empire

I'm sure the economic impact that Connors was referring to was one of a wide spread effect rather than a specific money-making building.

Unfortunately, you have people like Watts saying that money spent at a stadium would only be recycled local money and every $ spent at a stadium would be a $ taken away from other local businesses like movie theatres..... How narrow

There are a number of studies that show that since there is not an infinite supply of entertainment dollars in a community, sporting events do tend to take dollars that would normally be spent on other forms of entertainment. Personally I don't see anything wrong with that. If I my wife and I choose to spend our money on a CFL game instead of taking in dinner and a movie (since we can't do both), that is just taking advantage of increased entertainment options.

I am 100% in favor of a new stadium for Halifax, but let's not get caught in a trap by promoting any major economic benefit. There are just too many studies that stadium opponents can use to show just the opposite. Fortunately the stadium they want to build won't be a major economic drain either. Instead we need to focus on the non-economic aspects of a stadium such as building civic pride, a sense of civic unity and a sense of being part of something.

A CFL team will help bind this area together around a common goal of supporting our guys vs their guys. When I drive through Saskatchewan you see "Rider Pride" everywhere and everyone feels that they are a part of something. The few millions in economic benefit the Riders provide (actually not much more than a local Wal-Mart) is just icing on the cake. Can you imagine how dull it would be to live in Saskatchewan without the Riders?

A new stadium and a CFL team will enhance the image of Halifax by making us appear more progressive and on the rise. It can't help but make us more attractive to potential companies that may want expand their businesses here. You could feel the civic pride growing after we landed the shipbuilding contract. It is time to keep that pride growing by adding a new stadium and a CFL team.