Halifax Stadium Discussion

[c-way-dude]

I wonder if it would be possible to add removable seats along the sidelines for the stadium in football configuration, most of which could be placed behind the goalline in front of the raised seating in the stadium's soccer configuration?

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

I am working on another 3D model that will illustrate my thinking a bit better. It isn't that I disagree with what you are saying, it is just that I think the problem with the design process is that the architect considers a large stadium to be a white elephant and is not devoting the effort to making it a CFL football ready stadium. I get the impression that the stadium architect is more of a soccer fan than a football fan. As far as soccer goes, I think the thought is that a small 10,000 - 14,000 permanent seat stadium is sufficient.

In other words, I think that design problem isn't that it can't be easily and inexpensively designed to be expandable into a large stadium in the future, it is just that the desire isn't there. It is frustrating, but I think that many on the advisory committee were chosen to be unbiased. In my opinion, the recommendations are just too conservative and that is reflected in the stadium conceptual design. In my opinion, they are saying that the HRM economy is going to stagnate in the future and can't support a larger stadium - it really peeves me off.

My impression, as well, is that the architect is quite pro-soccer. There is a clear voice of support for a football capable stadium, but the design does not permit this option.

This minimalist stadium is an easy sell to a tiny city familiar to economic languish. This is why it is not suitable for Halifax.

Halifax is prospering and will be doing so long-term. I should order some specially made t-shirts that say SHIPBUILDING = 20 YEARS and request that everyone in attendance of these public stadium meetings wears one. Each meeting should open with a declaration, too, reminding everyone of the city's eventual surpass of half a million people.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by c-way-dude

I wonder if it would be possible to add removable seats along the sidelines for the stadium in football configuration, most of which could be placed behind the goalline in front of the raised seating in the stadium's soccer configuration?

One problem with adding seats along the sidelines is that fans have to see over the sideline players' heads. At the Rogers Centre several lower rows of seats are left unsold along the player area. I don't think there is as much room along the sidelines as it may appear. Whenever I have seen football stadiums in person, the stadium always appears much smaller in person than on TV and pictures.

Seats near field level are common in baseball but in football it seems as though most stadiums have the seats raised by several feet. I think in football the seats might be raised to give people a better viewing perspective. In football, as opposed to baseball and soccer, players tend to be bunched more and it is hard to see the ball carrier from near field level. Personally, I prefer a seat that is several rows from the field; it makes it easier to see the action on the football field. It might also be undesirable from a safety viewpoint, a fast running 250 - 300 lb football player could seriously injure fans along the sidelines.

[c-way-dude]

I figured the main problem would not be having a place to put extra seating, but being able to do it in such a way for the seats to not be too low for football and/or the first row of soccer seats being too high.
I like what you have done with the endzones in your latest model.

[c-way-dude]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

It might also be undesirable from a safety viewpoint, a fast running 250 - 300 lb football player could seriously injure fans along the sidelines.

It is a wonder that no player has ever seriously been hurt going out of bounds at Ivor Wynne Stadium.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by c-way-dude

It is a wonder that no player has ever seriously been hurt going out of bounds at Ivor Wynne Stadium.

I have been to Ivor Wynne to see a game and it certainly is close to the field. I just checked the sideline clearance in Google Earth and it is only about 20 feet from the field side of the sideline to the seats. Do you know what the CFL recommends for sideline out-of-bounds distance to the stands? This would allow about 7 additional rows of seats along the sidelines. But I think the real problem is in getting the advisory committee to be a real resident-based committee of fans, and not an unbiased business type committee. I think if there were more everyday HRM residents, who are sports fans, on the committee then there would be an easy solution to building an intimate FIFA/CFL-ready stadium (for example, just start with the McMahon layout of 22,000 seats that was built for $1 million dollars in 1960). The committee seems to feel that a FIFA stadium must have seats on all four sides - why is this so important that it makes the stadium design unsuitable for the CFL ?

I checked some other distances from the sideline seats to the field side of the sideline marker (in Google Earth). This is what I got:
Ivor Wynne - 20 feet
Edmonton's Commonwealth Stadium - 65 feet
Calgary's McMahon - 40 feet
Regina's Mosaic Field - 33 feet on one side and 43 feet on the other
Winnipeg's Canad Inn - ~ 41 feet
Montreal's McGill Stadium - ~ 35 feet
Halifax's SMU University Stadium - ~ 53 feet

The FIFA regulation field is 68 meters plus 8.5 meter sideline clearance which works out to 85 meters (279 feet). Subtracting the CFL field width of 195 feet and dividing by two then the sideline clearances would be 42 feet. So Winnipeg's Canad Inns Stadium and Calgary's McMahon appear to be close to the recommended allowance (Edmonton's clearance is more). Regarding the FIFA regulations, only 5 meters along each sideline is required to be grass/artificial surface plus 3.5 meters for access (this 3.5 meters might not be a strict requirement).

Most FIFA regulation soccer fields have the stands parallel to the field (no curve) which would give the closest distance to the field. If a stadium is built that way then it would have the stands closest to the field. Calgary's McMahon Stadium with the corner seats slanted appears to be close to the FIFA requirements and still appears to be an intimate CFL stadium (I have never been there - I am just going by images on the internet). This link shows the new Winnipeg Stadium layout, which meets the FIFA requirements - http://bluebombers.io-media.com/. It appears as though there is some variation allowed with the 8.5 meter FIFA sideline allowance (probably with the 3.5 meter access allowance).

[c-way-dude]

Oddly enough, I can't recall ever hearing anything about the minimum distance between the sidelines and the stands for a CFL stadium. Yet, I remember when BC Place opened, a league rule being mentioned that there has to be a minimum of five yards between the back of the endzone and the stands.

[c-way-dude]

I don't know if the CFL would want another stadium like Ivor Wynne, with the stands so close to the sidelines. I'm sure Hamilton's new stadium will be more like other CFL stadiums in this respect.
However, the stands for a Halifax stadium could be moved back 2 or 3 metres on each sideline beyond the FIFA minimum requirements. The stands would still be closer than they are in Edmonton or Moncton.
Regardless of whether Halifax ever is granted a CFL franchise, football games like the Uteck Bowl will still be the stadiums biggest drawing sporting events. The only soccer matches after the FIFA tournaments which might draw bigger crowds would be games involving Canada's National Men's or Women's teams. Given that Halifax would have to compete with other cities in Canada that have stadiums capable of hosting soccer to get matches that don't happen all that often, the city would only get to host games once in a blue moon.
Therefore, it is hardly unreasonable that soccer would make some concessions for football when it comes to the design of the stadium.

[(CFL) THE 13TH MAN]

"Your current Halifax stadium proposed recommendation"

FACTS:

1/ A bare boned 14 thousand permanent seat stadium
2/ Only 14 thousand permanent seats between the goal lines with no ability to expand permanently on the second tier on both sides of stadium
3/ Expansion only in the corners and endzones under their current designed configuration and only to 25 or 27 thousand total
4/ Only one concourse on one side of stadium with permanent washrooms and concession stands
5/ Bare boned: no necessary amenities such as skyboxes, VIP lounges, Club seats, restaurants, all needed in a properly sized stadium today, to be viable
6/ Without at least a modestly priced 25 to 30 thousand permanent seat CFL model stadium, there is no chance of attracting a major naming right partner like a Scotia Bank who already has invested interest in the CFL
7/ A bare boned 14 thousand permanent seat stadium will not attract a major naming right partner because it does not have the capacity nor the amenities needed in a stadium today to attract a major professional sports franchise owner, which a major naming right partner would want and need as an anchor tenant
8/ Example: BMO field in Toronto attracted BMO as a major naming right partner, 27 million over ten years because the facility had 22 thousand permanent seats with skyboxes etc. and had a major professional soccer franchise as an anchor tenant
9/ Haliafx needs to built a CFL model stadium with the ability to expand temporarily or permanently to 45 or 50 inorder to attract a potential CFL owner who would want the option and a stadium that was capbale of staging a Grey Cup game
10/ Other major benefits of a CFL model stadium versus a bare boned deficient 14 thousand permanent seat stadium, is that it will be the only major stadium in Atlantic Canada and Halifax would own the entire Atlantic market and become the sports and entertainmnet capital of the region

[Empire]

I hate to say it but maybe we go with a 14,000 bare bones stadium for now near the all weather fields in Burnside. After the sucess is proven for this venue and we see the benifits that the FIFA Wold Cup brought we build a 30,000 seat stadium. The 14,000 seat stadium would fill the gap for community based events.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Empire

I hate to say it but maybe we go with a 14,000 bare bones stadium for now near the all weather fields in Burnside. After the sucess is proven for this venue and we see the benifits that the FIFA Wold Cup brought we build a 30,000 seat stadium. The 14,000 seat stadium would fill the gap for community based events.

Would a second stadium ever happen though? It seems hard to justify.

One possible scenario is the 14,000 seat stadium out in Burnside that does fine for FIFA and then is somewhat underused afterwards because it's too far out (so for example SMU would not use it much). If that happens it seems unlikely that there would be public funding for a second, larger stadium. The argument would get even weaker if a regional-sized stadium were built in Moncton.

I feel like this is something that should be done properly or not at all, if the idea is to spend $60M or so on a permanent facility. It's pathetic that this has dragged on for so long and has been so poorly managed, but I'm not sure settling for a crippled stadium makes sense.

[Empire]

Originally Posted by someone123

Would a second stadium ever happen though? It seems hard to justify.

One possible scenario is the 14,000 seat stadium out in Burnside that does fine for FIFA and then is somewhat underused afterwards because it's too far out (so for example SMU would not use it much). If that happens it seems unlikely that there would be public funding for a second, larger stadium. The argument would get even weaker if a regional-sized stadium were built in Moncton.

I feel like this is something that should be done properly or not at all, if the idea is to spend $60M or so on a permanent facility. It's pathetic that this has dragged on for so long and has been so poorly managed, but I'm not sure settling for a crippled stadium makes sense.

What has become painfully obvious through this entire exercise is that the wherewithall is not there to build a proper stadium. The PR required to make this stadium happen has been nonexistent. The management of the open houses for the stadium was akin to a community effort for a 500 seat hockey rink, the gov involvement is an embarrassment.

Halifax is an event city. World Juniors, Tall Ships, Buskers, Multicultural Festival, Tatoo, Highland Games, Canada Winter Games, World Junior Volleyball x 2, Halifax Grand Prix, Powerboat races etc. Why is the potential of a stadium to enhance our event capability lost on so many people, in particular Darrell Dexter?

[(CFL) THE 13TH MAN]

Regina is have the size of Halifax, but they have vision and a provincial government that has already commited in a big way to support a major stadium project, which Halifax should be doing and not treating it 2nd and 3rd rate!

Regina is using a P3 Development method which they sent out a tender for, to attract serious private development investors who were in the large development construction business. Regina will start building their 380 to 450 million dollar stadium with or without a retractable roof in 2013. The way the deal will work and structured, is that at the end of the 30 year
P3 contract agreement, the city of Regina would own the stadium outright. Here is how it works, if you are not familar with the deal.

Say they both agree to choose the retractable roof stadium model which they are aiming for, the chosen P3 developer would put up half of the cost to build the stadium and the other half to build the stadium the city of Regina and the province would be responsible for. The P3 developer would run and manage the building and be responsible for the up keep of the building for 30 years. The city of Regina would pay the developer a managing payment fee annually to pay the developer back half of the developer`s original investment to help build the stadium. In the end the city of Regina would own and take over the facility.

PS. Winnipeg having heard this deal wish now they would have spent more than 200 million and built a retractable roof stadium so the city of Winnipeg could attract large events all year around, to drive more revenue.

My opinion is, Halifax should be doing the same and not building a white elephant that will be a total embarrassment to our capital city, being the largest city in Atlantic Canada. If Halifax builds this embarrassing bare boned 14 thousand seat stadium, Halifax will become the laughing stock of Canada. I suggest Premier Dexter should to proud of his government and his leadership because he will actually make history as the first Premier in Canada to totally refuse to support a major stadium project for his own capital city, in his own province, yet he has no problem giving 50 million to a dying Bowater paper industry, in his own home town, after he said publicly numerous times, he had no money for a stadium in Halifax, in his own capital city.


PS. Another important part of this, is the majority of the 70% of the public that want a stadium built in Halifax do not want a 14 thousand permanent seat stadium built period, they want a CFL model stadium built or they don`t want it built!

[MonctonRad]

Wespidel, is that you?

[Empire]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Wespidel, is that you?

A leopard never changes his spots...............

[Welkin]

Originally Posted by (CFL) THE 13TH MAN

Regina is have the size of Halifax, but they have vision and a provincial government that has already commited in a big way to support a major stadium project, which Halifax should be doing and not treating it 2nd and 3rd rate!

Regina is using a P3 Development method which they sent out a tender for, to attract serious private development investors who were in the large development construction business. Regina will start building their 380 to 450 million dollar stadium with or without a retractable roof in 2013. The way the deal will work and structured, is that at the end of the 30 year
P3 contract agreement, the city of Regina would own the stadium outright. Here is how it works, if you are not familar with the deal.

Say they both agree to choose the retractable roof stadium model which they are aiming for, the chosen P3 developer would put up half of the cost to build the stadium and the other half to build the stadium the city of Regina and the province would be responsible for. The P3 developer would run and manage the building and be responsible for the up keep of the building for 30 years. The city of Regina would pay the developer a managing payment fee annually to pay the developer back half of the developer`s original investment to help build the stadium. In the end the city of Regina would own and take over the facility.

PS. Winnipeg having heard this deal wish now they would have spent more than 200 million and built a retractable roof stadium so the city of Winnipeg could attract large events all year around, to drive more revenue.

My opinion is, Halifax should be doing the same and not building a white elephant that will be a total embarrassment to our capital city, being the largest city in Atlantic Canada. If Halifax builds this embarrassing bare boned 14 thousand seat stadium, Halifax will become the laughing stock of Canada. I suggest Premier Dexter should to proud of his government and his leadership because he will actually make history as the first Premier in Canada to totally refuse to support a major stadium project for his own capital city, in his own province, yet he has no problem giving 50 million to a dying Bowater paper industry, in his own home town, after he said publicly numerous times, he had no money for a stadium in Halifax, in his own capital city.


PS. Another important part of this, is the majority of the 70% of the public that want a stadium built in Halifax do not want a 14 thousand permanent seat stadium built period, they want a CFL model stadium built or they don`t want it built!

It is very unlikely that Regina will ever get their $450 million stadium built regardless of what financial games they play unless they get either a massive donation by the private sector or have a huge increase in taxes. The math just does not work without a huge annual subsidy. The $450 million stadium is only projected to generate $7 million in income each year with 80% coming from the Riders. Again that's income, not profits. It would be a money losing white elephant from the start. Investors may be kicking the tires, but I don't see anyone funding that project with their own money. Plus, I have not read on any of these forums, any of the good people of Winnipeg wishing that they had also built a large retractable roof stadium. It turns out that there are very few large year around events to attract (arenas in Calgary and Edmonton only have 4 non-hockey dates booked between November-March). You cannot justify the cost of a $450 million stadium that will stand empty 90% of the year regardless of any P3 financial scheme. Halifax may be thinking too cheap and too small, but at least they aren't trying to bankrupt the city.

[(CFL) THE 13TH MAN]

Always read posts on this site and actually did not post on here because of the way some of you treated people like WES.... who I thought had a lot of intelligent and solid posts that made a lot of sense. There were also people that admitted that he was abused on this site and people like me and others stayed away because of the cruel degrading remarks made.

Anyway please don`t treat me the same or others.

I gave you the facts just like WES did so don`t do the same to me. I`m from out west and the Mayor of Regina was on local radio and said that the Mayor of Winnipeg said they wish they would have went bigger and built a retractable roof stadium too. Also I did my research on the Halifax stadium configuration and the facts I listed are accurate.

[Jstaleness]

Welcome to the forum.

The local media has been pretty quiet about a stadium in the past weeks. Not sure if that's good or bad at this point but hopefully there will be a big announcement soon.

[c-way-dude]

Originally Posted by someone123

Would a second stadium ever happen though? It seems hard to justify.

One possible scenario is the 14,000 seat stadium out in Burnside that does fine for FIFA and then is somewhat underused afterwards because it's too far out (so for example SMU would not use it much). If that happens it seems unlikely that there would be public funding for a second, larger stadium. The argument would get even weaker if a regional-sized stadium were built in Moncton.

I feel like this is something that should be done properly or not at all, if the idea is to spend $60M or so on a permanent facility. It's pathetic that this has dragged on for so long and has been so poorly managed, but I'm not sure settling for a crippled stadium makes sense.

The Sierra Report says that a stadium needs to be easily expandable. If this stadium were designed with sunken lower decks that upper decks could be added to, then it would be a good investment. Otherwise, it would likely be better for the whole deal to collapse.

[resetcbu1]

Building a second stadium? that's laughable, with how long it took to get the ball rolling and this half assed version of a stadium, I doubt that we will ever see the likes of a second stadium, especially if this one is built and nobody attends because we don't have an anchor tenant, and the only events there are small regional events that generate no serious interest outside of our cities or province. The city to the steering committee have all dropped the ball big time on this, it drives me insane because I know they're only building it that because people have asked for it, they don't really give a damn how the stadium turns out..... so long as it's built and they look good for doing it.(THEY WON'T)

Let's hope that they all wake up and smell the roses before it's too late, I think there will be a lot disappointed people when they attend their first event as stadium that's built in the middle of nowhere for one small tournament then rots away because it's virtually useless to any event of any are real size.......

Nonetheless I have my fingers crossed that we will end up with something that a great city like ours deserves, and with some of the people who had lobbied long and hard(Fenwick e.g) can have their knowledge and their passion for this put to use!

We just need to keep pushing and keep demanding let them know what they have proposed is unacceptable, let's not let those who claimed this would be a white elephant be correct...... Let's do it right the first time, let's make it expandable, put in proper concessions, build it in a central location that people are willing to go to not just those who drive or can afford expensive taxis across the city, put in a proper changing rooms and make it attractive for a future tenant to move in with out breaking the bank to renovate the stadium that should have been done right the first time! A