Halifax Stadium Discussion

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by RyeJay

I think the most obvious number indicative to the status of Halifax's stadium ambitions is the one recently released by the feds: 3. HRM has 3 months, and only 3 months, to get its 🞵🞵🞵🞵 together. Even though I'm charmed by the number of people romanticising about a deal being worked out within this rather short time frame, which even at the municipal level seems impossible (aside from the "no/maybe/no" by the province and the feds), my enthusiasm is shifting toward those who are taking a position of wanting the stadium preparations to continue even if HRM is unable to proceed with FIFA 2015.

The 3 month extension isn't by the federal government, but is through the Canadian Soccer Association. CSA is the association that is organizing the event and selecting the cities, but I don't think it is a federal government agency.

Without romanticizing about a deal being worked out, there is a chance of a deal being worked out; neither the federal government or provincial government has given an definite "no" at this point. So every effort should be made to see that a deal is worked out. After all, every future attempt to build a stadium will be just as difficult, or even more so.

It should be noted that the deadline for a stadium commitment is March 31st, 2012. So there are actually 3 1/2 months to work out a deal.

After the Commonwealth Games it was easy for local politicians to feel that there wasn't much support for a stadium, but polls have indicated that there is over 70% support for a stadium. So even if the stadium isn't built in time for the FIFA event, I don't think the support will disappear.

[fenwick16]

The following commentary is by Jamie Ferguson who is CEO of Sport Nova Scotia.

source and complete commentary - http://thechronicleherald.ca/opinion/43323-what-stadium%E2%80%99s-worth-hrm-province

What is a stadium’s worth to HRM, province?
December 16, 2011 - 4:37am By JAMIE FERGUSON

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It’s important to note that like similar facilities across the country, the stadium itself is not expected to generate a profit, although it is sure to help generate economic activity in the municipality and the province. However, we think the most important question is: Is this a good investment? In fact, it’s worthwhile to broaden that question to ask if investment in sport and recreation infrastructure is a good investment.

For years, sport participants have been paying fees in efforts to have our sport facilities generate income, whether they are fields, gyms or rinks. Discussion on new facilities has always included the question of economic sustainability. However, there has been very little discussion about the value of these types of facilities and the opportunities and benefits they create.

If constructed, this new sport facility and sport campus will create economic spinoffs; however, there are other spinoffs that may be more important. We know that children taking part in sport are more likely to be healthy, more likely to do well in school, and less likely to break the law. And if you think that doesn’t have an economic impact, imagine if we were discussing how to sell off surplus hospital beds today instead of how many new ones we may need, and imagine if we were arguing about which jails to close instead of where to build new ones.

In an interesting comparison, there was little concern with the costs that will be borne by taxpayers for the new library being built in HRM, and no call for economic sustainability for a facility with capital and operational costs that are almost completely subsidized by taxpayers. We understand this, and in fact we agree. Libraries are an important part of the fabric of our community. We know sport facilities are too.

In a telephone survey conducted by CRA as part of the public consultation process on this proposed new facility and sport campus, 75 per cent of respondents indicated it was important that municipal governments invest in sport and recreation facilities. We know it’s important too: It encourages positive social development in our youth, improves our health, and stimulates our economies.

So when we’re considering a new multi-purpose sport facility, we think the relevant question is not only "What will it cost?" but we must also consider what it’s worth.

Jamie Ferguson is CEO, Sport Nova Scotia.

[Welkin]

"In addition to absorbing some of the financial risk, some private development firms or construction companies have ongoing experience in designing and building stadiums whereas a city only builds a stadium every 30 or 50 years, he said.

The preferred option would be having a private partner design, build, finance and maintain a new stadium, but not necessarily operate it — one of many detail that would be worked out later in the process if the P3 recommendation is backed by councillors, he said".

Read more: http://www.leaderpost.com/news/Regina+ci...acement/5872956/story.html#ixzz1gobWz8IY

It looks like Regina is having a problem pulling together the money for their $500-$600 million domed stadium (which is not surprising for a city their size).
My question is concerning having a private company design, build, finance and maintain their new stadium, but not actually operate the stadium or own the football team playing in the stadium. Does anybody have any idea what they are talking about? How do you get a private company to design, build and finance a new stadium when it will probably be a money losing proposition? Are there any examples of companies out there actually doing this? If so, maybe Halifax should check into this route. I know it does not make any sense to me, but maybe someone out there has more information on this type of project.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Welkin

It looks like Regina is having a problem pulling together the money for their $500-$600 million domed stadium (which is not surprising for a city their size).
My question is concerning having a private company design, build, finance and maintain their new stadium, but not actually operate the stadium or own the football team playing in the stadium. Does anybody have any idea what they are talking about? How do you get a private company to design, build and finance a new stadium when it will probably be a money losing proposition? Are there any examples of companies out there actually doing this? If so, maybe Halifax should check into this route. I know it does not make any sense to me, but maybe someone out there has more information on this type of project.

It sounds very similar to the Nova Centre proposal, which is the proposed new convention centre for Halifax. The advantage of that deal is that the province and HRM don't have to pay any money until it is complete around 2015, and then they would make yearly payments for 25 years. They would also pay a yearly maintenance fee. In effect, it is a guaranteed lease arrangement for 25 years and the province and HRM may have the option to buy the convention centre in 25 years for some pre-arranged amount (I am not sure if that was agreed on, although it was talked about).

The federal government's share of the Nova Centre would be paid when the convention centre is complete (the federal share is about $51 million). The funding commitments have been made by all 3 levels of government, but Rank Inc. (the private developer) is having some delays in securing tenants for the office component, and possibly delays in securing financing.

The disadvantage is that a private company cannot get the same low interest rates as the NS provincial government can, so the province of NS will pay more over a 25 year period than they would if they paid as construction proceeds.

[Empire]

According to this artice in todays Herald it would appear that Dexter sees the merit of a stadium for HRM and all the health and economic benefits it could bring. Maybe he will announce funding before Christmas?

Liverpool's $21.6-million recreation centre officially opensDecember 19, 2011 - 7:50pm By BEVERLEY WARE South Shore Bureau 0


Residents applaud Monday afternoon as Premier Darrell Dexter takes to the podium at the official opening of Queens Place Emera Centre in Liverpool. The $21.6-million facility has an NHL-sized rink, walking track, fitness centre and community meeting rooms. (BEVERLEY WARE / South Shore Bureau) .LIVERPOOL — The only complaint Thomas Raddall has about Liverpool’s new recreation complex is that it didn’t open sooner.

The 18-year-old hockey player will graduate from Liverpool Regional High School in the spring, then head off to university.

But in the meantime, he’ll savour every moment he can get on the ice at the $21.6-million Queens Place Emera Centre.

His team played its first game in the new arena Friday night. They lost 4-2 to Digby, “but it was a good game,” Raddall said.

And he loved playing on the ice.

“It’s nice. It’s definitely an improvement over our last rink. The sound system, the glass, the boards, the NHL-size ice surface — there’s a lot more room.”

The facility officially opened Monday, with most of the 1,000 seats filled with area residents excited about their long-awaited facility.

Beth LaRocque isn’t wasting a minute. She plans to be in the gym Tuesday morning.

“I love it,” the 64-year-old said.

“It’s beautiful. It’s a lot bigger (than the current fitness centre) and there’s a lot more equipment.”

She and husband Allan, 65, have already bought their annual membership to the fitness centre and cardio studio.

Allan intends to be there when the doors open at 6 a.m., five mornings a week, while Beth expects to use the fitness facility three days a week. They’ll more than double the time they spend in the building attending their 10-year-old grandson’s hockey practices and games.

There’s already a hockey tournament scheduled over the Christmas break.

“This was a long time coming,” LaRocque said.

She’s disappointed there’s no pool. It was cut in a controversial decision by council when it had to chop $6 million from the project because the municipality got less than it had hoped from the federal and provincial governments.

Mayor John Leefe noted the building was designed so a rink can be added to the east side of the structure when it’s feasible.

“I’d say 90 per cent of residents wanted a pool,” LaRocque said.

“There are a lot of seniors here,” and the swim team uses a small outdoor pool in Milton that’s not big enough to host competitions.

Queens Memorial, the existing rink, opened in Liverpool in 1971.

The premier remembers, as a lad of 14, going on walkathons and wearing buttons to raise support and money to get that rink built. It cost $250,000.

“We were just happy to have four walls and some ice to skate on,” Darrell Dexter said.

He can recall crawling out of bed at 4 a.m. and carrying his hockey bag more than five kilometres to Liverpool for his 6 a.m. practices.

“I literally walked the whole way,” he said, because his father was a sheet metal worker in Halifax and the family had just one car.

Dexter said the centre is more than a place for people to get healthy and feel part of their community, “it’s an economic development initiative as well.”

He said companies looking at places to set up business and adults looking for places to raise their families look for facilities such as Queens Place.

The recreation centre was recently named Queens Place Emera Centre because of a $500,000 donation from Emera, which will also provide an electronic sign outside and spend $5,000 a year hosting a community event.
Mark Sidebottom, general manager of power production for Nova Scotia Power, said the company promotes healthy living among its workforce and in the communities where employees live. Emera is also a sponsor of the skating oval in Halifax, committing $500,000 to that facility.

The federal government contributed $7 million while the province committed $5 million. The Region of Queens plans to take $4 million out of capital reserves, and it has raised $1.7 million of the $2 million it was seeking from the public.

Meanwhile, the Lunenburg County Lifestyle Centre to be built in Bridgewater will go to tender for a second time next month after initial bids came in too high. Bridgewater and the District of Lunenburg have budgeted $33.5 million for the facility, which will also include an NHL-size ice surface, a six-lane pool, a children’s pool and a two-storey library.

([email protected])

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By BEVERLEY WARE South Shore Bureau.


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[halifaxboyns]

That text is way too big and bright for so early in the morning before coffee!
Good to know he might be on board.

[Empire]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

That text is way too big and bright for so early in the morning before coffee!
Good to know he might be on board.

He's on board for the Queens rec centre which means he should be on board for an HRM stadium because the rationale is the same.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Empire

He's on board for the Queens rec centre which means he should be on board for an HRM stadium because the rationale is the same.

But Dexter is from Liverpool isn't he? There could be some inherent bias there....

[Empire]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

But Dexter is from Liverpool isn't he? There could be some inherent bias there....

Yes he is from Liverpool and there certainly is bias involved......$50 million for Bowater and nothing yet for NewPage comes to mind..... I guess the point is that the reasons that he has publicly pronounced for making a buisness case for a rink in Liverpool also apply for a stadium in HRM. Up until now he has not admitted that sport infrastructure has a positive effect on the economy or health of the taxpayers.

[cjones2451]

Is there any news on this lately or has it died down because every one was on holidays?

[fenwick16]

There hasn't been much news. The proposed stadium and location probably hasn't attracted the imagination of many people.

Personally, I think that the stadium issue isn't being taken very seriously. If the stadium proposal is compared to the new Halifax Central Library, you can see the difference. For the Central Library, an internationally acclaimed architectural firm was selected and a prime location was chosen. For the stadium, the design seems to be an afterthought, the public's opinions were ignored and the main architect told people that a large spectator stadium (I assume he means CFL size) will be a white elephant. In order for the HRM to get provincial and federal funding, the HRM has to get people excited. In my opinion, the design and location have just bored people into submission - it is essentially a small, intimate, soccer-specific stadium that is being called a multipurpose stadium. The stadium architect doesn't seem to understand that a large portion of seats in the endzone won't work for the CFL - so it isn't a multi-purpose stadium.

My view with regard to getting people interested - select a more central location (Shannon Park might be the best available location and is the most popular with the majority of people), present a design not only to show what it can be in the immediate future but what it can be expanded to be in the future, and create a large model to showcase and to help with a funding drive.

I have my doubts that the current proposal will be built and I will not be disappointed if it isn't. As many have stated, if it is going to be done, it needs to be done right. Building a soccer-specific stadium isn't doing it right.

I am grateful to all who have sat on the stadium steering committee, but I think they have to go back to the drawing board. To get the support that they need to have it proceed, they need to excite people, as the new Central Library has excited people. That doesn't mean spending an extravagant amount of money, but they need a stadium architect who is more in touch with what the majority of residents are hoping for. Maybe the stadium architect needs to be a Maritimer.

[Empire]

From the Halifax Chamber of Commerce Business Voice Online Jan 4.

HALIFAX STADIUM - WHAT DO YOU THINK??
The final reports for the Phase 2 Stadium Analysis were on the agenda for Regional Council on December 6th, 2011. Regional Council has voted to maintain a commitment to a stadium and directed staff to request an extension of up to six months from the Canadian Soccer Association before a decision is made on participation in the 2015 FIFA Women’s World Cup. We want to know what you think about the construction of the stadium - Does this development make sense? What are the benefits to it? Are there any negative consequences? Click here http://www.halifax.ca/Stadium/index.html..._January_4_20121_4_2012&utm_medium=email to read more about the Stadium project, and please forward along any thoughts you may have on this potential development to Brian MacDonald, Policy and Research [email protected]

[RyeJay]

...what else are they wanting to hear from us? They haven't listened thus far.

Are they simply hoping we begin telling them what they want to hear?

'Yes' to location in a business park.
'Yes' to a soccer-only stadium.
'Yes' to an inadequate number of seats.

Now go spend our money! And don't you dare implement decent public transit so that students can reach their community..suburban stadium.

[Nifta]

Gah! Please put it somewhere near downtown, if possible, HRM! A Sports stadium can really add to the vibrancy of downtown during those big-match days!

[c-way-dude]

Since a soccer pitch is wider than a CFL playing field, what about the idea of placing removeable seats along the sidelines (if the stadium actually ends up being like the one presented at the last meeting)?
Would it be possible to increase the number of seats between the CFL goallines from 14k to maybe 15.5-16k, while keeping the seats at a reasonable height for both soccer and football? If the decks were placed well back like they are in Moncton, perhaps it would be possible to have an even greater increase in the number of seats between the goallines.

[fenwick16]

The FIFA soccer field, although wider than a Canadian Field (about 223 feet versus 195 feet in width), works quite well as far as width goes. The bigger problem is the long Canadian football field (both CIS and CFL). The length of the FIFA soccer field is about 344 feet versus 450 feet for the Canadian football field. This is the opposite problem to trying to fit a FIFA soccer field to a US football field which is only 360 feet long, including endzones, by 160 feet wide.

I feel that having the endzones seats significantly elevated and at a relatively steep incline will provide the best endzone viewing for football (in the endzones, spectators need to be close to the field and elevated to get a decent viewing perspective, otherwise it is difficult to tell the difference between a 4 yard run or an 8 yard run when the play is down the field). The viewing perspective from the soccer endzones (goal-ends) isn't as critical because the play is constantly in motion both across and lengthwise down the field. If the designers of the stadium don't take this difference into account then the stadium will be a poor layout for Canadian football.

In spite of the differences between Canadian football and soccer, a stadium can be built to be both an intimate FIFA soccer field and an intimate Canadian football field. I think that BC Place is a good layout, and the new Winnipeg Stadium will be a good stadium layout for both sports.

[c-way-dude]

My thought was that a few rows of removeable seats could be placed along the sidelines within the 28 feet difference in width between a CFL field and a soccer pitch. Perhaps 5 or 6 rows, at approximately 200 seats per row, on each sideline could make a difference between someone considering placing a CFL team in the stadium. The question would be if this could be done in such a way as to not have the extra football seating too low or the first row of soccer seating too high.
I don't know if 16k seats between the goallines would attract an owner any more than 14k. Perhaps at least at 16k, a stadium could be expanded to 25k while leaving one end zone open. This possibly could allow a stadium to be expanded to the minimum 40k necessary to host a Grey Cup.
I realize that I am grasping at straws, but if a stadium is built like the one presented at the last meeting, and that stadium is not expandable with upper decks along the sidelines, it may be the only hope.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by c-way-dude

My thought was that a few rows of removeable seats could be placed along the sidelines within the 28 feet difference in width between a CFL field and a soccer pitch. Perhaps 5 or 6 rows, at approximately 200 seats per row, on each sideline could make a difference between someone considering placing a CFL team in the stadium. The question would be if this could be done in such a way as to not have the extra football seating too low or the first row of soccer seating too high.
I don't know if 16k seats between the goallines would attract an owner any more than 14k. Perhaps at least at 16k, a stadium could be expanded to 25k while leaving one end zone open. This possibly could allow a stadium to be expanded to the minimum 40k necessary to host a Grey Cup.
I realize that I am grasping at straws, but if a stadium is built like the one presented at the last meeting, and that stadium is not expandable with upper decks along the sidelines, it may be the only hope.

I am working on another 3D model that will illustrate my thinking a bit better. It isn't that I disagree with what you are saying, it is just that I think the problem with the design process is that the architect considers a large stadium to be a white elephant and is not devoting the effort to making it a CFL football ready stadium. I get the impression that the stadium architect is more of a soccer fan than a football fan. As far as soccer goes, I think the thought is that a small 10,000 - 14,000 permanent seat stadium is sufficient.

In other words, I think that design problem isn't that it can't be easily and inexpensively designed to be expandable into a large stadium in the future, it is just that the desire isn't there. It is frustrating, but I think that many on the advisory committee were chosen to be unbiased. In my opinion, the recommendations are just too conservative and that is reflected in the stadium conceptual design. In my opinion, they are saying that the HRM economy is going to stagnate in the future and can't support a larger stadium - it really peeves me off.

[c-way-dude]

I completely agree with you. It is very unfortunate that the people running the process seem to not believe that Halifax will get a CFL franchise.
The difference in the cost of building and maintaining a stadium like we desire would be offset by rent from a CFL owner, more money from naming rights, and money generated from hosting Grey Cup games.
A small stadium will never be able to generate much towards covering construction and operating costs.
Even if a CFL team never materialized, a 25k stadium would still not be big enough to be a "white elephant". It would be more like a white rhino.

[fenwick16]

Over the past couple of years, whenever I visited stadiums I was thinking of what would be good for the HRM - although it is just my biased opinion. Certainly cost is a big factor. The HRM can't afford a stadium like the new Winnipeg Stadium. I have posted some images of the lower bowl of a stadium layout that can be expanded by adding an upper tier of seats all around. It is about as intimate a stadium as possible and still meet FIFA and CFL requirements. I think it would be an intimate stadium for both sports.

This is my conceptual football layout. The illustrated drawing would seat about 18,200 for Canadian Football. However by adding a second tier all around, it could be expanded to 40,000 plus. I imagine it as a sunken bowl stadium but it could also be only partially sunken (for example, built into a hill on one side and built from ground level up on the other). I imagine it as having all economical, folding seats (not benches, which don't meet FIFA requirements).


Adding temporary sections of endzone seats would convert it to a FIFA soccer configuration. However, a majority of the endzone seats are permanent. The soccer configuration would seat about 21,400 (3,200 being temporary). It could likewise be converted to over 40,000 seats by adding seats all around, which might sound unlikely but Canada is more than likely to host a FIFA Men's Cup sometime in the next 20 - 30 years. Halifax should be a host city - billions of people around the world would be watching.


In its football configuration the first row of endzone seats would have spectators close to the field and high above the field - eye level in the first row of endzone football seats would be about 14 - 15 feet. These seats must have a steeper incline than the sideline seats in order to avoid viewing obstructions. The hill around the bottom is for safety, in case anyone ever falls from the seats (unfortunately it happens occasionally).


This is the football view from the endzone.


This is with the soccer seats added.


This is the wheelchair accessible area which is elevated so wheelchair spectators can see over standing spectators. I didn't draw the stairs and aisles but it would be similar to the Akron InfoCision Stadium which has a great layout for accessible seating - http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/7938/024qs.jpg - however, an FIFA qualified stadium in the HRM would need to have folding or backed chairs)


This shows an overhead view. It meets the FIFA sideline requirements and is still an intimate football layout - the first row of sideline seats would be as close or closer than the SMU Stadium seats.