Halifax Stadium Discussion

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by reddog794

This seems like an off the wall idea, but with the new oval going in on the commons, why not build the stadium across the street where the Canada Games Baseball diamond is? It is not in the best of shape, and is used as much as a stadium is.

The main idea is it's supposed to be a community stadium isn't it?

I think that location, that you mentioned, or the Wanderers Grounds would be an ideal site. I think a stadium in such a location would get far more use than one that is anywhere in Dartmouth (no offence to Dartmouthians but there are universities situated close to the Commons and Wanderers Grounds that could use a stadium).

Below is a picture of the grandstand at the Wanderers Grounds that existed many years ago. There are several other pictures showing the Wanderers Grounds being used as a spectator events venue - http://www.gov.ns.ca/nsarm/results.asp?Search=Wanderers+Grounds&SearchButton=Search. I continue to think that such a central location is the best place for such an events venue.

(source: http://www.gov.ns.ca/nsarm/virtual/Connors/archives.asp?ID=47 )

[Hali87]

I wonder if the low level of support for a stadium on the peninsula has anything to do with the fact that the main consultation regarding location was held in Dartmouth? The steering committee never acknowledged this, and might not have realized that it could make a difference.

[pchipman]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

We have heard that it is cold, foggy and windy. Is this how you remember it from when you went to school there? Based on maps, it appears to be quite sheltered from the wind.

I went to Shannon Park elementary and played several football games at the field there in recent years. I don't remember it being any more windy, foggy or cold than anywhere else in the HRM (especially the mainland common). Otherwise, I do remember regularly waiting 5-10mins for trains to pass by before crossing into the site, so accessibility issues are legitimate.

I am a big fan of a downtown Dartmouth stadium, although I realize the chances of this happening are slim. Road access is somewhat indirect, although there are those rail tracks and ferry service nearby. There was an article in the Herald the other day about redevelopment potential of the Dartmouth cove site which seems to beacon for this type of idea:
http://thechronicleherald.ca/business/40819-dartmouth-waterfront-wants-dreamers-big-thinkers

Overall, I do think the DC quarry site would be an appropriate site for a stadium in a city that lags 20 years behind the more progressive Canadian cities.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by pchipman

I went to Shannon Park elementary and played several football games at the field there in recent years. I don't remember it being any more windy, foggy or cold than anywhere else in the HRM (especially the mainland common). Otherwise, I do remember regularly waiting 5-10mins for trains to pass by before crossing into the site, so accessibility issues are legitimate.

I am a big fan of a downtown Dartmouth stadium, although I realize the chances of this happening are slim. Road access is somewhat indirect, although there are those rail tracks and ferry service nearby. There was an article in the Herald the other day about redevelopment potential of the Dartmouth cove site which seems to beacon for this type of idea:
http://thechronicleherald.ca/business/40819-dartmouth-waterfront-wants-dreamers-big-thinkers

Overall, I do think the DC quarry site would be an appropriate site for a stadium in a city that lags 20 years behind the more progressive Canadian cities.

The Dartmouth Cove location is interesting. The story mentions that there is a 12 acre site. This could be large enough for a stadium, depending on how it is situated. It would be easy to get to by ferry or regular bus transit from anywhere in the HRM. Some of the quotes in the story are also interesting. It almost sounds that they might be interested in having a stadium there.

I placed a 19.5K stadium, which I drew previously, at that location. It appears as though such a stadium could be expanded to about 35,000 spectators (one end would be limited by the train tracks).

Dartmouth Cove location - map link - http://maps.google.ca/maps?q=halifax,+ns...unty,+Nova+Scotia&gl=ca&t=h&z=18&vpsrc=6


I also placed the same stadium (19.5 K seats) at Shannon Park. If located at Shannon Park, it could be expanded to a higher ultimate capacity (40,000 - 45,000). One very big advantage to the Shannon Park site is that it would have great road visibility to a high volume of riders - that could translate to big advertising revenue for the HRM. The visibility would also attract spectators to sports events. I have really warmed up to the Shannon park Location.

Shannon Park location (partly sunken).

[spaustin]

If Fenwick's mock-up is an accurate representation, for Dartmouth Cove to work, the stadium would need to be built overtop of the tracks. It wouldn't work to bring it right up to Portland Street because of Marine House. Knocking down the 3-4 low-rises along there is one thing, but Marine House is a 6 storey building full of government workers who help prop keep business going in Downtown Dartmouth. It would need to be set back from Portland Street.

[Waye Mason]

Originally Posted by spaustin

If Fenwick's mock-up is an accurate representation, for Dartmouth Cove to work, the stadium would need to be built overtop of the tracks. It wouldn't work to bring it right up to Portland Street because of Marine House. Knocking down the 3-4 low-rises along there is one thing, but Marine House is a 6 storey building full of government workers who help prop keep business going in Downtown Dartmouth. It would need to be set back from Portland Street.

Yeah, it is not practical to talk about expropriating all those buildings. Curling club... the pump station on the canal for the sewage. Secunda Marine. The market, the yacht works, etc.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by spaustin

If Fenwick's mock-up is an accurate representation, for Dartmouth Cove to work, the stadium would need to be built overtop of the tracks. It wouldn't work to bring it right up to Portland Street because of Marine House. Knocking down the 3-4 low-rises along there is one thing, but Marine House is a 6 storey building full of government workers who help prop keep business going in Downtown Dartmouth. It would need to be set back from Portland Street.

In that case, it is an interesting location but it would probably cost too much to make it work (i.e. building over the train tracks). A stadium would require at least 600 by 700 feet (about 10 acres, without parking).

[W.Sobchak]

Would there be a wild chance it could be built across from Kings Wharf, on reclaimed land? I used to live five seconds from the area and it had low winds, and good exposure to the sun. The novel idea would deffinately raise the cost, but it would be impressive to have both Kings Wharf and a new Stadium straddling the canal enterence.

I liked Reddog794s idea of building it over the Canada Games diamond, the plan they are putting forward for the Oval suggests they want that area to be a focus of events, so why not strengthen it?

[-Harlington-]

Im not sure if this is what others had in mind but what about filling in Dartmouth Cove ( I dont think it would happen considering cost and time frame but its an idea )

Theres also a lot of underused vacant land and a few warehouses under the Macdonald bridge, im not sure who owns the warehouses or if they are in use or not though .

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by W.Sobchak

Would there be a wild chance it could be built across from Kings Wharf, on reclaimed land? I used to live five seconds from the area and it had low winds, and good exposure to the sun. The novel idea would deffinately raise the cost, but it would be impressive to have both Kings Wharf and a new Stadium straddling the canal enterence.

I liked Reddog794s idea of building it over the Canada Games diamond, the plan they are putting forward for the Oval suggests they want that area to be a focus of events, so why not strengthen it?

Building a stadium where the Canada Games Diamond is would be a dream come true. The location is central, close to the universities, and is easily accessible via walking.

A downtown Halifax stadium...

It's such a powerful investment, it would likely extend what we consider the downtown onto Quinpool Road. From an aerial view, the stadium would look interesting next to the Citadel.

[someone123]

They could put the stadium in the corner of the North Common by Robie and Cogswell. Would it fit on the Canada Games diamond? The Wanderers Ground seems a bit tight.

[RyeJay]

There is more space at the corner of the North Common by Robie and Cogswell, yes. I'm obviously hopeful for a peninsular stadium. I would be thrilled if HRM was to pursue a waterfront stadium at Shannon Park, but even more so if a location on the peninsula was chosen.

[halifaxboyns]

Has there been any indication that the number of locations for the stadium is going to change?

[Waye Mason]

Herald editorial board on the stadium:

Stoppage time
Stadium bid on last legs

Mayer Peter Kelly talks about the proposed stadium during a city council meeting at City Hall in August. (INGRID BULMER / Staff)
WINNING the Grey Cup is sweet, but not an incredible feat — unless you kick off your season with five consecutive losses, as the B.C. Lions did this year.

Here in Halifax, we’re involved in a different game — building a stadium in time for the 2015 Women’s World Cup of Soccer — and trailing just as badly in the early going. Despite a three-month extension granted last week to find financing partners, Halifax’s bid to become a host city looks more like a dead-cat bounce than a pride of Lions roaring back to life.

First, the cash-strapped Dexter government will be more reluctant than ever to pitch in at least $20 million for its share of a 14,000-seat stadium, now that it has promised the Bowater paper mill a boatload of money to keep it afloat.

Second, Ottawa is unlikely to commit funds unless the province does so first. So it’s a catch-22. Furthermore, a federal contribution of land in lieu of cash — i.e., the derelict Shannon Park site near the MacKay bridge — would not be problem-free. It would still cost valuable time and big money to remediate the property. "Ease of acquisition" is one of the reasons why the Dartmouth Crossing/Commodore Drive site scored highest in a site evaluation study.

Third, no private-sector sponsors have expressed an interest in investing to date. Who can blame them — especially after the recent skating-oval fiasco during which council initially rejected Molson Breweries’ $400,000 contribution, then quickly reversed course under public pressure? If you look a gift horse in the mouth, don’t expect other potential benefactors to come beating down your door.

Fourth, council has been ambivalent about this project as well, albeit with some justification. While a city Halifax’s size could certainly use a stadium, it’s not an open-and-shut business case. Like most other stadiums, it would generate spinoffs but operate at a loss. How much of a loss is not easy to gauge, but the staff report to council does warn that if actual concession and other revenues fall 20 per cent below conservative projections, then the Year 1 deficit could climb to $460,000 from $271,000.

So if the world’s best female footballers are to battle it out on a soccer pitch in Dartmouth in less than three years, it will take one heck of a pitch from the city over the next few weeks.

[fenwick16]

referring to Waye Mason's post: This is just some person's opinion (a very negative one at that). There aren't any real facts in it and the writer didn't even give their name. It is just a typical defeatist type commentary that is heard too often in the Halifax area.

Just to consider the opposite viewpoint.
point 1) - If the Dexter government is so cash strapped then why are they increasing capital spending in 2012 - 2013? ( references: http://thechronicleherald.ca/novascotia/34081-opposition-raps-ndp-spending-announcements; allnovascotia.com - "NDP Stokes Spending to Create Jobs", Dec 12, 2012). The NDP party is referring to the increase in spending as the Jobs & Building Plan
point 2) - recently Premier Dexter stated that such funding is usually a tri-level investment - http://www.metronews.ca/halifax/local/article/1044953 . MP Peter MacKay previously stated that they would wait for Premier Dexter before committing funding. This might just be politics - i.e. blame the lack of a commitment on one another, or they might actual agree to provide funding if it is tri-level.
point 3) - I would expect private funding to occur after the three levels of government commit - i.e. once private investors believe that it will actually be built (as in the case of the Oval).
point 4) - This is just the usual negative sentiment. On the other hand, what if the spectator numbers are much higher than expected? Then the loss will be less.

When I read the commentary, it bothered me that such negative commentary is published on such a regular basis in the Halifax area.

[someone123]

I tend to agree. I am tired of grasping arguments about how one thing was funded and therefore something else will not be funded. A few months ago we were hearing "stadium vs. convention centre" and this article claims that Bowater is significantly impacting the chances that the stadium will be built. The point about Molson is also incredibly weak.

I suspect that all three levels of government would be willing to fund some sort of stadium. The challenge is that with the tight time constraints they might not have time to work out a deal.

[Waye Mason]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

referring to Waye Mason's post: This is just some person's opinion (a very negative one at that). There aren't any real facts in it and the writer didn't even give their name. It is just a typical defeatist type commentary that is heard too often in the Halifax area.

No newspaper ever signs their editorials, as editorials are the opinion of the editorial board of the paper, the senior staff.

This isn't JUST some PERSONS opinion, it is the opinion of the paper of record. You can dismiss it as unimportant but you would be wrong to do so.

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by Waye Mason

No newspaper ever signs their editorials, as editorials are the opinion of the editorial board of the paper, the senior staff.

This isn't JUST some PERSONS opinion, it is the opinion of the paper of record. You can dismiss it as unimportant but you would be wrong to do so.

This is opinion.

Regardless, it is along the lines of most opinions that I've come across, so I don't see it as irrational.

We see changing numbers in stadium cost. We see changing numbers in our projections of taxation. It would be great to have access to many of these behind the scenes business dealings, to have a better understanding of the numbers so we may claim to have more than just an opinion...

I think the most obvious number indicative to the status of Halifax's stadium ambitions is the one recently released by the feds: 3. HRM has 3 months, and only 3 months, to get its — together. Even though I'm charmed by the number of people romanticising about a deal being worked out within this rather short time frame, which even at the municipal level seems impossible (aside from the "no/maybe/no" by the province and the feds), my enthusiasm is shifting toward those who are taking a position of wanting the stadium preparations to continue even if HRM is unable to proceed with FIFA 2015.

The planning needs to carry forward in order to better prevent the ohmygodstadiumwheredoweputitandhowdowepayforitletsblameDexter.

[Waye Mason]

Originally Posted by RyeJay

This is opinion

Yes, thank you.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by RyeJay

I think the most obvious number indicative to the status of Halifax's stadium ambitions is the one recently released by the feds: 3. HRM has 3 months, and only 3 months, to get its — together. Even though I'm charmed by the number of people romanticising about a deal being worked out within this rather short time frame, which even at the municipal level seems impossible (aside from the "no/maybe/no" by the province and the feds), my enthusiasm is shifting toward those who are taking a position of wanting the stadium preparations to continue even if HRM is unable to proceed with FIFA 2015.

Yep. Assuming this doesn't happen, those lobbying for a stadium need to try to keep up the momentum. That was one of the big failures of the Commonwealth Games process -- even though the games were dead, the city should have continued to pursue a scaled-back stadium. Clearly other opportunities were available because Moncton hosted one of them.

The planning and land acquisition details should be sorted out now, not at the last minute when the next FIFA comes along. A study could also include a survey of future sporting events that have a good chance of getting provincial/federal funding.