Halifax Stadium Discussion - Page 214

Keith P. · #**4261** Posted **Dec 9, 2011, 10:04 PM**

Shannon Park is a poor location for a stadium despite those who would shout down such views. Cold, foggy, and windy because it is next to the harbor. Poor access roads, and what everyone seems to forget, it is owned by the feds but is subject to a Micmac land claim. As a former military site it likely has significant contamination issues as they were not noted for respecting the environment back in its heyday. But the native claims are really the big problem - combined with everyhting else, it would cost zillions to obtain clear title.

In contrast, the quarry site is a good one from a stadium point of view. The topography offers some interesting options for facility design and for access points. It is adjacent to the major highway into metro and immediately next to an interchange. DC is also just in its infancy, and that end has residential planned for the area north of the quarry site. I suspect it will be quite a different place in 5 years.

Shannon remains a poor choice.

planarchy · #**4262** Posted **Dec 9, 2011, 10:11 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by RyeJay

Excellent.

This makes a short list even shorter. If the Commodore site isn't even being sold, then HRM needs to move on to the next: Shannon Park.

And it's comical to read Dartmouth Crossing Ltd. be so upfront about where they want the stadium. Well, let's hope they aren't too upset when their stadium isn't built anywhere in their tacky, waste of space, Bayer's Lake knock-off business park.

Its actually refreshing that someone in this city is upfront about these issues. DCL is a retail developer. They made an offer to the city, and I have no doubt that they could actually be one of the few that could pull it off, but I really don't think they care either way. Either way, they will develop their land.

And on Halifaxboyns's suggestion - any expropriation attempt would be completely ludicrous. HRM is the biggest land holder in the area, the biggest business park real estate developer in the Province. DCL isn't responsible for sucking businesses from downtown - HRM is. And they are actually terrible at development - it only works because they can develop for a fraction of the cost compared to the private sector. An expropriation attempt of DCL lands would only make them look more ridiculous than they do now.

planarchy · #**4263** Posted **Dec 9, 2011, 10:14 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Shannon Park is a poor location for a stadium despite those who would shout down such views. Cold, foggy, and windy because it is next to the harbor. Poor access roads, and what everyone seems to forget, it is owned by the feds but is subject to a Micmac land claim. As a former military site it likely has significant contamination issues as they were not noted for respecting the environment back in its heyday. But the native claims are really the big problem - combined with everyhting else, it would cost zillions to obtain clear title.

In contrast, the quarry site is a good one from a stadium point of view. The topography offers some interesting options for facility design and for access points. It is adjacent to the major highway into metro and immediately next to an interchange. DC is also just in its infancy, and that end has residential planned for the area north of the quarry site. I suspect it will be quite a different place in 5 years.

Shannon remains a poor choice.

Agreed.

And Shannon Park remediation costs surely make redevelopment by the city alone impossible. Whatever goes here has to generate some serious money to make it work - a stadium alone won't do it.

halifaxboyns · #**4264** Posted **Dec 9, 2011, 10:31 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Shannon Park is a poor location for a stadium despite those who would shout down such views. Cold, foggy, and windy because it is next to the harbor. Poor access roads, and what everyone seems to forget, it is owned by the feds but is subject to a Micmac land claim. As a former military site it likely has significant contamination issues as they were not noted for respecting the environment back in its heyday. But the native claims are really the big problem - combined with everyhting else, it would cost zillions to obtain clear title.

(emphasis added)
This is why I'm being realistic about SP. I think a lot of the issues such as wind and road access can be solved through construction design, improving the existing roads - but I totally agree with you on the things I've bolded, those are the biggest issues for SP, not to mention the fact that Canada Lands hasn't been on board from the start.

If those problems weren't there and CLC was on board, then I think it wouldn't be as much of an issue. Either way, I'm finding it less likely to see a stadium at SP.

I guess time will tell how this all plays out, you never know. But what I meant by the expropriation comment is that if DCL didn't want them to use the site that the report focuses on, the city could always expropriate it. I agree, it would be the ultimate irony, but they have that in their 'tool kit'.

Clayton Park · #**4265** Posted **Dec 9, 2011, 10:33 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Shannon Park is a poor location for a stadium despite those who would shout down such views. Cold, foggy, and windy because it is next to the harbor. Poor access roads, and what everyone seems to forget, it is owned by the feds but is subject to a Micmac land claim. As a former military site it likely has significant contamination issues as they were not noted for respecting the environment back in its heyday. But the native claims are really the big problem - combined with everyhting else, it would cost zillions to obtain clear title.

In contrast, the quarry site is a good one from a stadium point of view. The topography offers some interesting options for facility design and for access points. It is adjacent to the major highway into metro and immediately next to an interchange. DC is also just in its infancy, and that end has residential planned for the area north of the quarry site. I suspect it will be quite a different place in 5 years.

Shannon remains a poor choice.

Well said

MaritimeCFLFan · #**4266** Posted **Dec 9, 2011, 10:43 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clayton Park

Well said

Agreed

MonctonRad · #**4267** Posted **Dec 9, 2011, 11:09 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaritimeCFLFan

Agreed

+2!!

someone123 · #**4268** Posted **Dec 9, 2011, 11:29 PM**

The other factor is the time restriction. Shannon Park is not going to happen in 3 months.

q12 · #**4269** Posted **Dec 9, 2011, 11:36 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenwick16

This is an interesting location for a sunken bowl stadium. I downloaded a 3D Warehouse model of Stanford Stadium (http://www.worldstadiums.com/stadium_pic...states/california/stanford_stadium.shtml), which was drawn by username - NICK, and placed it at the Dartmouth Crossings Quarry location (below). A smaller, economical stadium, such as the 20,000 seat Pizza Hut Park, would probably fit at that site very well. (http://www.worldstadiums.com/stadium_pic...ited_states/texas/frisco_pizza_hut.shtml)

There are positives and negatives of that site. Positives - land cost might be cheap, it is an interesting topography for a sunken stadium, it is close to restaurants and other amenities, and close to highways. A negative point is that it is quite far removed from the urban core and established public transit.

Fenwick posted this awhile back. I really like this idea with a sunken bowl in the old quarry. I think it has the most potential for expansion.

spaustin · #**4270** Posted **Dec 9, 2011, 11:36 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by resetcbu1

If they could tear down some of those old warehouses on and around dartmouth cove that would be a great spot I think , how does anyone else feel?

Great addition with Kings Wharf and DT dartmouth would flourish .....

That's really not a bad idea actually. It would give Downtown Dartmouth a signature attraction.

I heard on CBC radio that Moncton's request for federal funding to upgrade their stadium was turned down, which doesn't bode well for us. It's increasingly looking like a HRM stadium is dead. The province has said no and the feds... look how long they took to decide the convention centre and they left us hanging on the Bedford Fourplex.

If the stadium for FIFA is dead, HRM should take the time to complete a proper planning process. Revisit the site criteria since the timeline aspect will be off the table and really consider what the a stadium could achieve. When investing large sums of public money, we should aim to enhance our city in a way that otherwise wouldn't happen through private sector investment alone. Dumping a stadium out by a highway onramp doesn't really do that whereas using it to spur redevelopment somewhere in the core? That might cost more and be more complicated in the short-term, but in the long-term it really maximizes the benefit. If HRM setup a stadium fund that business and residents could donate to and did the planning for a site, we would be able to seize the next opportunity. What we have now is HRM grabbing the most readily available site for the short-term, finding out the hard way that we have no funding partners and having to ask for a 6 month extension (that fills the evaluation team with confidence I'm sure). Events like FIFA come along now and then, we should aim to be ready next time.

Empire · #**4271** Posted **Dec 9, 2011, 11:56 PM**

Two more sites:

Russel Lake West...talked about 2 years ago:
http://maps.google.ca/maps?q=halifax&hl=...ax,+Halifax+County,+Nova+Scotia&t=h&z=16

Penhorn Mall recently destroyed by wrecking ball:
http://maps.google.ca/maps?q=halifax&hl=...ax,+Halifax+County,+Nova+Scotia&t=h&z=17

terrynorthend · #**4272** Posted **Dec 10, 2011, 12:11 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Shannon Park is a poor location for a stadium despite those who would shout down such views. Cold, foggy, and windy because it is next to the harbor. Poor access roads, and what everyone seems to forget, it is owned by the feds but is subject to a Micmac land claim. As a former military site it likely has significant contamination issues as they were not noted for respecting the environment back in its heyday. But the native claims are really the big problem - combined with everyhting else, it would cost zillions to obtain clear title.

In contrast, the quarry site is a good one from a stadium point of view. The topography offers some interesting options for facility design and for access points. It is adjacent to the major highway into metro and immediately next to an interchange. DC is also just in its infancy, and that end has residential planned for the area north of the quarry site. I suspect it will be quite a different place in 5 years.

Shannon remains a poor choice.

I agree with this too. I like the quarry site at DC. Gillette Stadium in Foxboro Mass. now anchors a huge outlet shopping district and has its own "Patriot's Place" Entertainment Center which is a fantastic draw. Maybe some synergy could be developed with a similar entertainment destination connected with a CFL franchise.

fenwick16 · #**4273** Posted **Dec 10, 2011, 12:56 AM**

I found some information regarding the Millbrook First Nation land claim at Shannon Park. It is essentially 10 acres of un-developable land. Since I could only find a faint drawing of the land in question, I decided to trace the approximate area in Paint. Based on all that I have read, the First Nation Millbrook band is not laying claim to the entire Shannon Park. The land claim is shown in figure 9 of this document - http://issuu.com/brucemans/docs/spsiteplan .

(source: redrawn based on figure 9 in this document - http://issuu.com/brucemans/docs/spsiteplan)

Here are a few references:

Empire · #**4274** Posted **Dec 10, 2011, 12:57 AM**

This is why the FIFA bid is critical for HRM stadium funding.....

Herald

CANADA IN BRIEF December 9, 2011 - 4:37am

Feds reject Moncton’s arena funding request
MONCTON (CP) — Ottawa has rejected a request from Moncton to help fund the building of a downtown arena and entertainment complex.

Paul Thomson, a spokesman for the city, said Thursday that Moncton has been told that sports infrastructure is no longer eligible for funding under the $1.2-billion federal program.

Mayor George LeBlanc said he’s disappointed by the decision but said the project is too important to let die

Jstaleness · #**4275** Posted **Dec 10, 2011, 1:05 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clayton Park

Well said

Welcome to the forum Clayton Park!

fenwick16 · #**4276** Posted **Dec 10, 2011, 1:28 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by resetcbu1

I went to school at Shannon Park in the mid 80's, it was a dilapidated hole then and an even bigger mould filled — hole now, TEAR IT DOWN... It is not a healthy enviroment, health or mentaly and would certainly be better off replced by new development . The whole area is an eyesore and a stadium would be the first step to revitalizing a sad state of affairs.

We have heard that it is cold, foggy and windy. Is this how you remember it from when you went to school there? Based on maps, it appears to be quite sheltered from the wind.

Empire · #**4277** Posted **Dec 10, 2011, 1:49 AM**

It would be nice to see the North American Development Group (owners of Dartmouth Crossing) step up to the plate and donate the Quarry site at DC for the stadium.

NADG Stadium

planarchy · #**4278** Posted **Dec 10, 2011, 2:42 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Empire

It would be nice to see the North American Development Group (owners of Dartmouth Crossing) step up to the plate and donate the Quarry site at DC for the stadium.

NADG Stadium

Why would they ever do that? I don't see what they would get out of it by giving it away?

Empire · #**4279** Posted **Dec 10, 2011, 3:57 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by planarchy

Why would they ever do that? I don't see what they would get out of it by giving it away?

They pull people into DC to events and thus shops restaurants etc., they draw more interest from companies thinking of locating there, they ramp up the profile of the proposed residential development....perhaps increasing the density and therefore the return on the residential development. The valve of the remaining land could increase with the presence of a stadium. The timeline for developing the rest of DC could be accelerated thereby maxing out returns on the property.

Do you really see no benefit in DC becoming a minor partner in a stadium?

Kelly has little or no credibility with Peter MacKay after backing out of the CWG!

reddog794 · #**4280** Posted **Dec 10, 2011, 6:04 AM**

This seems like an off the wall idea, but with the new oval going in on the commons, why not build the stadium across the street where the Canada Games Baseball diamond is? It is not in the best of shape, and is used as much as a stadium is.

The main idea is it's supposed to be a community stadium isn't it?