Edmonton Construction 11 (November 2011)

[CMD UW]

^He's talking about the sale of Bell and Oxford Tower tower to Aspen Properties.

[Coldrsx]

^correct. Somewhat unfortunate that Oxford is departing given their history and amount of current development, but they have obviously determined this is not a strategic office market.

[s211]

Originally Posted by Coldrsx

^correct. Somewhat unfortunate that Oxford is departing given their history and amount of current development, but they have obviously determined this is not a strategic office market.

It's sad how a number of major office players, many of them pension funds, are either departing or have no desire to enter the Edmonton market. And considering how Edmonton used to be Oxford's home base... what's it going to take to get the attention of the big players again?

[tony0911]

^LMAO.....how about an actual demand for downtown office space.......they need to put their money to work and it's not going to happen here so they go where the demand is!!!

[240glt]

It is a lot more complicated than that, and bear in mind that Oxford still owns a prime redevelopment lot downtown.

it's been a good year for office leasing this year. I fully expect we'll see another commercial project next year

[Kevin_foster]

Isn't Oxford selling off assets in every major market in Canada?

[Coldrsx]

Reminder to go and sign up - Downtown Symposium Dec 15.

http://edmonton.com/3304.aspx

[CMD UW]

Originally Posted by s211

It's sad how a number of major office players, many of them pension funds, are either departing or have no desire to enter the Edmonton market. And considering how Edmonton used to be Oxford's home base... what's it going to take to get the attention of the big players again?

Not really true at all. You have to remember that there are a number of companies that 'manage' these assets on behalf of pension funds. Oxford still has a large presence here even with their recent sales. We know they have plans to develop new office properties in other markets (Calgary and Vancouver) and often times the decision to sell assets and 'cash out' are part of these plans. The other two large players; Cadillac-Fairview and Brookfield, have never really had a presence in Edmonton. The big players in downtown are Bentall-Kennedy, Aspen Properties, Oxford, GWL Realty, Morguard, Tonko and Dundee Realty.

[s211]

Originally Posted by CMD UW

Not really true at all. You have to remember that there are a number of companies that 'manage' these assets on behalf of pension funds. Oxford still has a large presence here even with their recent sales. We know they have plans to develop new office properties in other markets (Calgary and Vancouver) and often times the decision to sell assets and 'cash out' are part of these plans. The other two large players; Cadillac-Fairview and Brookfield, have never really had a presence in Edmonton. The big players in downtown are Bentall-Kennedy, Aspen Properties, Oxford, GWL Realty, Morguard, Tonko and Dundee Realty.

Three large players, CF, Brookfield and Ivanhoe (nee SITQ, nee Caisse). Brookfield was in Edmonton for a short while, then sold all and left. From an investment perspective, Edm's definitely a tier down from similar or larger-sized Canadian centres (incl Calgary unfortunately), with the exception of Winnipeg perhaps.

[Coldrsx]

Edmonton will pay if suburban growth curtailed

True costs of infill and downtown development have to be factored into the mix

EDMONTON JOURNAL DECEMBER 5, 2011



STORYPHOTOS ( 1 )



City plans show streets going through it, but this machine shop and scrap yard is staying put while a suburb grows up on all four sides.
Photograph by: Candace Elliott, The Journal, Edmonton Journal
Robert Clark

In recent months, there has been a great deal of debate about the cost of suburban growth. Some commentators have gone as far as to argue that suburban growth can threaten a city's financial sustainability. Unfortunately, these opinions are based on a narrow perspective leading to recommended policies that are discriminatory, contestable and in some cases, contrary to legislation. The Urban Development Institute of Alberta represents and encourages the development industry across Alberta to create sustainable, vibrant communities for all Albertans. On behalf of UDI Alberta, I would like to clarify the assumptions and misplaced arguments about growth.

http://www.edmontonjournal.com/opinion/E...ed/5811226/story.html?cid=megadrop_story

[kcantor]

Originally Posted by CMD UW

Not really true at all. You have to remember that there are a number of companies that 'manage' these assets on behalf of pension funds. Oxford still has a large presence here even with their recent sales. We know they have plans to develop new office properties in other markets (Calgary and Vancouver) and often times the decision to sell assets and 'cash out' are part of these plans. The other two large players; Cadillac-Fairview and Brookfield, have never really had a presence in Edmonton. The big players in downtown are Bentall-Kennedy, Aspen Properties, Oxford, GWL Realty, Morguard, Tonko and Dundee Realty.

you might have to define big...

we have about a million sf of office space in our portfolio (in Edmonton alone) and 90% of it is downtown...

[kcantor]

Originally Posted by s211

It's sad how a number of major office players, many of them pension funds, are either departing or have no desire to enter the Edmonton market. And considering how Edmonton used to be Oxford's home base... what's it going to take to get the attention of the big players again?

i'm not sure what you find sad about someone selling an asset...

for every one of those assets that might be sold, there is a purchaser who is probably much more optimisitic about our market and the asset they bought than the vendor was. i for one would rather have more bullish owners in our market who are looking to push rates up than bearish ones who are prepared to play musical tenants and push rents down while doing it.

[s211]

Originally Posted by cdnklc

i'm not sure what you find sad about someone selling an asset...

for every one of those assets that might be sold, there is a purchaser who is probably much more optimisitic about our market and the asset they bought than the vendor was. i for one would rather have more bullish owners in our market who are looking to push rates up than bearish ones who are prepared to play musical tenants and push rents down while doing it.

Edmonton's seeing more regional and national-ish investors and fewer international firms.

I would rather be on the world's real estate map than be ingored by the larger world.

[kcantor]

Originally Posted by s211

Edmonton's seeing more regional and national-ish investors and fewer international firms.

I would rather be on the world's real estate map than be ingored by the larger world.

on what basis are you seeing "more regional and national-ish investors and fewer international firms"?

we are seeing some international disengagement but it is almost always based on their circumstances elsewhere (i.e. they are "upside down" in france or italy or greece or spain or ireland etc.) and their only saleable assets are their investments here. those sales are a measure of the strength of our market, not its weakness. to go along with that, we are seeing increasing amounts of interest internationally from institutional as well as private investors who are "cash rich" and have no faith in their home markets or even their home currencies that are attracted not only to our market but to the security of our currency.

there is no question that we are indeed on the world's real estate map and far from being ignored by the larger world. if anything, the larger world has a knowledge and experience base that reinforces the quality of investment here compared with anywhere else in the world that is sometimes difficult for us to appreciate. and putting that aside, as previously noted, i would still rather see our market dominated by new investors looking to maximize its potential than investors who are no longer in a position to do that regardless of why or where they are from.

[hqcan]

Fellas, entering the core from Conners road their is clearly work going on in between the hotel Mac and the hotel to the east of it. I believe this would be the south face of CDI College tower. Any clue what's going on? South face is bare right now.

[bulliver]

^ Been ongoing for a while. I had assumed they are doing some work on the MacDonald Estates parkade.

[CMD UW]

Originally Posted by s211

Three large players, CF, Brookfield and Ivanhoe (nee SITQ, nee Caisse). Brookfield was in Edmonton for a short while, then sold all and left. From an investment perspective, Edm's definitely a tier down from similar or larger-sized Canadian centres (incl Calgary unfortunately), with the exception of Winnipeg perhaps.

From an office perspective there are 4 major markets: Toronto, Calgary, Vancouver and Montreal.

I would place Edmonton, Ottawa and the Peg as tier-2 markets.

[Coldrsx]

Originally Posted by bulliver

^ Been ongoing for a while. I had assumed they are doing some work on the MacDonald Estates parkade.

Correct. Reinsulating it.

[s211]

Originally Posted by CMD UW

From an office perspective there are 4 major markets: Toronto, Calgary, Vancouver and Montreal.

I would place Edmonton, Ottawa and the Peg as tier-2 markets.

Correct. It's a shame that the second tier doesn't get a lot of attention from national analysts, e.g. banks. It's like they don't exist.

[s211]

Originally Posted by cdnklc

on what basis are you seeing "more regional and national-ish investors and fewer international firms"?

Having worked in the field, and having had conversations with the bigger players, it's always a wicked fight trying to get them past their perceptions of Edmonton. Perception's (almost) everything, and I know of several of the big players that can't be bothered with Edmonton, and that's upsetting because unless Edmonton can get some positive trajectory with these players, Edmonton will continue to be ignored to its own detriment and the larger investors will instead focus on more up-and-coming centres (e.g. Calgary).

Are you happy with settling for second tier, or do you want to fight for all it's worth to be something better?