Halifax Stadium Discussion

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by ewjonsson

In my opinion, Halifax should drop the FIFA bid if this is the best that council can muster. Sometimes it is better to hiold out until a better offer comes around.

Eric

I agree.

We are getting a bad deal with this stadium. This investment is expensive. If we are going to pony up the cash then we need to build something the city actually wants, especially because we'll be stuck with it for a long time.

[halifaxboyns]

Well the recommended location doesn't come as a surprise to me; despite the fact I was totally on board with a shannon park location.

Looking over the report quickly; I get the impression (in terms of risk) with SP is that with Canada Lands owning the site, the recent land claim placed on it and then the fact that no one from CLC has come forward and said "hey - we'd love for you to build it at shannon park" there would be no way to get the land into HRM hands, get the land claim settled and then get building to meet FIFA.

I find the idea of dropping FIFA interesting and considering the late hour here in Calgary; I will have to think about it tomorrow...but it could be interesting.

Did anyone notice the population projections in the phase 1 presentation to COH? They are saying around 475,000 by 2026. Not bad I have to say. While I'm not fully happy with the recommendation, I'm glad to see the permanent seat count went up, but still not too happy with that. All and all, a cautious approach.

But, looking at the other side of the coin...if this stadium is built, it will put HRM one step closer to getting a team - one step that we don't have now (which is any facility).

[ILoveHalifax]

This seems to be what was presented at the last meeting at the forum. 14,000 permanent seats expandable to 20,000 seats. Conrad, the guy doing all the presentation was called to our table to hear our concerns about it being to small.
He did indicate that it would be built so as to allow expansion to 28,000 permanent seats and suitable for CFL.
I guess all our talk at that session went unheard, because I don't see that any of the input from those present was considered at all.

[planarchy]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

I think that the Commodore site might be this one that is owned by HRM - http://maps.google.ca/maps?q=halifax+ns&...fax+County,+Nova+Scotia&t=h&z=16&vpsrc=6

The Commodore site is the land around Frenchman's Lake, immediately south of Commodore. This is all DCL land.They note on pg. 17 of the report that "The uncertainty as to ease of acquisition by HRM resulted in a 10 point deduction as part of the Risk Factor assessment".

HRM's site in the area is the Burnside/John Savage site, north of Commodore, immediately adjacent to the all-weather fields and Spectacle Lake. This site is severely limited by the available area, as well as a large wetland associated with the Lake which you can see in the google map image.

[Empire]

- This site north of Commodore may not be too bad although I like Shannon Park much more.
- I think students would be able to find a stadium shuttle bus to get to an event in Burnside....It's much closer than Moncton!
- High density residential is slated for the Quarry site and north of it so this could be beefed up if the stadium were located here.
- I'm not sure development in Burnside qualifies as sprawl......maybe the airport or beyond.
- For those who say let's wait for a better deal......we've been waitinng for 28 years since the failed Atlantic Schooner CFL bid for a "modest stadium.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by ILoveHalifax

This seems to be what was presented at the last meeting at the forum. 14,000 permanent seats expandable to 20,000 seats. Conrad, the guy doing all the presentation was called to our table to hear our concerns about it being to small.
He did indicate that it would be built so as to allow expansion to 28,000 permanent seats and suitable for CFL.
I guess all our talk at that session went unheard, because I don't see that any of the input from those present was considered at all.

I mostly agree with your opinion. I had hoped for 18,000 - 20,000 between the soccer goal-lines (which is similar in distance to the CFL goal-lines). I think it was built to be an intimate soccer facility more than a large Canadian football stadium. Based on my calculations and by comparing it with the Winnipeg Blue Bombers new stadium, I think it probably can be expanded to about 28,000 for CFL football.

The Winnipeg Stadium has about 19,000 between the FIFA soccer goal-lines whereas the HRM conceptual stadium would have about 14,000 (however, if 10,000 seats between the soccer goal-lines is chosen then it probably wouldn't be easily expandable for a CFL team). I calculated the 19,000 seat number for the Winnipeg Stadium based on 48 rows and I used a factor of 344 feet (105 meters) divided by 1.8 for the seats per row (which is about a 19" -> 20" wide seats and a 4 foot wide aisle every 20 - 30 seats). Here is a link to their seating layout - http://bluebombers.io-media.com/ . The Winnipeg Stadium will seat 33,000 and is expandable to 40,000 for Grey Cups with temporary seating.

I agree with Empire, waiting for a better proposal to come along could be a very long wait.

[c-way-dude]

I imagine that this stadium, when expanded, would look a lot like BC's temporary Empire Stadium.
A CFL team in a smaller market like Halifax would already face a significant challenge. If a team has to rely on selling 10k seats per game in the end zones, the challenge will be much greater. I don't think any team in the league regularly sells that many end zone seats.
If this stadium cannot easily be expanded with upper decks along the sidelines, it is probably better if the whole deal collapses.

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by Empire

- This site north of Commodore may not be too bad although I like Shannon Park much more.
- I think students would be able to find a stadium shuttle bus to get to an event in Burnside....It's much closer than Moncton!
- High density residential is slated for the Quarry site and north of it so this could be beefed up if the stadium were located here.
- I'm not sure development in Burnside qualifies as sprawl......maybe the airport or beyond.
- For those who say let's wait for a better deal......we've been waitinng for 28 years since the failed Atlantic Schooner CFL bid for a "modest stadium.

Burnside is closer than Moncton?! Ohh...well then this is a big game changer

This stadium must be closer to the peninsula in order to attract the younger crowd from the universities. Droves of students will not regularly bus it all the way to DC. They don't even do it now, for the shopping.

A clue to DC's sprawl are the forests to the north and west of the park. They are being cleared for more box stores. If want to tell yourself that HRM sprawl starts at the airport....or Enfield......or Truro.... that's fine...

Regardless, we are fighting for this stadium to be closer to the city's core. Many people, myself included, wanted this investment on the peninsula--where most of the community resides and where everyone else frequents. Shannon Park is also a very central location--and takes advantage of developing our waterfront more.

28 years of waiting? This means it won't hurt to wait a little longer...
After waiting for so long, Halifax deserves a stadium it actually wants. NOT: omg the FIFA event; let's build whatever and wherever is adequate for this one event. After that, Halifax is stuck with a rushed piece of garbage that it'll still be paying off.

The public meetings seem contradictory in my eyes now. There was so much talk of walkability...and this stadium being a central part of Halifax's culture...a community stadium....

If this city actually wants to build something of which it can be proud: do not build it in a business park.

[isaidso]

Yes, you need at least 20,000 side line seats. Couldn't they just build a 14,000 seat grandstand and if the CFL franchise materializes build a duplicate stand on the other side? This way they'd get a 14,000 seat stadium, but also a design that will allow for all seats to be side lines seats if Halifax gets a pro football team. It would also allow for upgrades to 40,000 for a Grey Cup simply by putting the extra 12,000 seats in the 2 end zones.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by c-way-dude

I imagine that this stadium, when expanded, would look a lot like BC's temporary Empire Stadium.
A CFL team in a smaller market like Halifax would already face a significant challenge. If a team has to rely on selling 10k seats per game in the end zones, the challenge will be much greater. I don't think any team in the league regularly sells that many end zone seats.
If this stadium cannot easily be expanded with upper decks along the sidelines, it is probably better if the whole deal collapses.

I agree that it would be a challenge for a CFL team to sell 10,000 endzone seats per game and make money. I posted links to the season ticket prices of all the CFL teams, except for Montreal (whose 2012 season ticket prices aren't available yet). Some of the teams sell no endzone season tickets and the others sell only a small fraction of total seating in the endzones.

If Halifax builds a stadium with 14,000 seats between the goal-lines then they could have another 5,000 - 7,000 in the 4 corners, which are decent seats (that would give 19,000 - 21,000 seats along the sidelines). Another 5,000 - 10,000 seats would fit in the endzones but they would be the cheap seats (good for obtaining a cheap ticket but not good for the financial stability of a CFL team). I think that a CFL team could possibly succeed with 14,000 seats between the goal-lines. One way to make a stadium easier to expand would be to build it with 14,000 seats between the 15 yard-lines (i.e. build it with more rows).

• http://www.bluebombers.com/uploads/asset...ems/PDFs/SeatingMapwPricing_Website1.pdf (I am a bit surprised that Winnipeg's endzone prices are higher than their upper corner seats, which I would prefer over endzone seats)
• http://www.bclions.com/tickets
• http://www.stampeders.com/tickets/tickets/
• http://www.esks.com/page/season_seats (it looks like Edmonton isn't selling endzone seats in 2012)
• http://www.argonauts.ca/page/seasontickets
• http://www.riderville.com/page/season_tickets
• http://www.ticats.ca/page/tickets_seasonseats2012

I prefer the following format (below) for a stadium. Although it would be smaller than the Alabama State University proposal - how about having it completely finished on one side with about 14,000 - 16,000 seats and then temporary seats could complete the other 3 sides. I think this would be cheaper than having 7,000 on each side. Or it could be built with 10,000 between the goal-line on one side (instead of wrapping it around the corners) and have 5,000 lower bowl, sunken seats on the other side (the other side could mirror the complete side when money is available for expansion). The most costly side will be the side containing the change-rooms, referee-rooms, etc.

(sources: http://www.convergencedesignllc.com/project.cfm?project_id=31)

[Empire]

Originally Posted by isaidso

Yes, you need at least 20,000 side line seats. Couldn't they just build a 14,000 seat grandstand and if the CFL franchise materializes build a duplicate stand on the other side? This way they'd get a 14,000 seat stadium, but also a design that will allow for all seats to be side lines seats if Halifax gets a pro football team. It would also allow for upgrades to 40,000 for a Grey Cup simply by putting the extra 12,000 seats in the 2 end zones.

I think this is the ideal way to go. Put 14,000 on one side with a partial roof and media box. Then another 11-14,000 could follow on the opposite side in a few years. Wouldn't it be more economical to build one section at 14,000 instead of spreading it out?

Sorry fenwick I didn't see your similar comment......let's build big on one side! If all the seats were on one side it would be easier to set up temp seats across from them with nothing to work around.

[q12]

Originally Posted by c-way-dude

If this stadium cannot easily be expanded with upper decks along the sidelines, it is probably better if the whole deal collapses.

This is my only question in regards to the design. If they are going with a 14,000 seat design and add the 6,000 in the endzones for the FIFA event that's fine. But to expand for the CFL, the design should allow for a 2nd Tier on each of the sidelines that could bring it to 25,000.

Here is the design shown in the Phase 2 Stadium Analysis made available to the public yesterday. It appears that a 2nd tier would be possible on both sides except the media tower would need to be altered.



Source

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by isaidso

Yes, you need at least 20,000 side line seats. Couldn't they just build a 14,000 seat grandstand and if the CFL franchise materializes build a duplicate stand on the other side? This way they'd get a 14,000 seat stadium, but also a design that will allow for all seats to be side lines seats if Halifax gets a pro football team. It would also allow for upgrades to 40,000 for a Grey Cup simply by putting the extra 12,000 seats in the 2 end zones.

This is what I would like to see. However, from watching the public consultations it was quite apparent that it was being built as a soccer stadium first, and secondly as a possible CFL stadium. Unfortunately, there will probably not be any amateur sports events that would justify building a Canadian football stadium whereas there might be funding available for the FIFA event. For that reason, I think that 10,000 between the goal-lines on one side and 5,000 on the other side might be justifiable. Then if the opposite side were completed in the future it would result in 20,000 seats between the goal-lines and by completing the corners it could have 30,000 sideline seats.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by q12

This is my only question in regards to the design. If they are going with a 14,000 seat design and add the 6,000 in the endzones for the FIFA event that's fine. But to expand for the CFL, the design should allow for a 2nd Tier on each of the sidelines that could bring it to 25,000.

Here is the design shown in the Phase 2 Stadium Analysis made available to the public yesterday. It appears that a 2nd tier would be possible on both sides except the media tower would need to be altered.



Source

IMAO, I think this design is very poor as far as expansion is concerned. It just shows that the stadium architect didn't listen to people when they said that they would eventually like to have a CFL team.

A design that would be easy to expand would be one like the Pizza Hut design. The design minimizes the cost of ramps and stairways by being a sunken design. This is also a better design for wheelchair access and wheelchair viewing. It is also built from concrete which can be built by local tradesmen instead of buying seating sections from Dant Clayton and then having aluminum stands. Concrete will seem much more permanent than aluminum decking. Most of the seats are folding chairs.
The Pizza Hut stadium structure was built for $35 million, excluding the land cost and associated playing fields (source: phase 1 Sierra report). The total cost of the entire complex was $90 million in 2011 dollars but includes 17 additional playing fields - http://fcdnation.com/pizza-hut-park-frisco-tx/

(source: Bing Maps screen-capture - http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=phs4hd6...0Frisco%2C%20TX%2075034-4950&form=LMLTCC )


I also prefer the Events Nova Scotia conceptual design better than the most recent design since it will be easier to expand. However, it would be better if it had more upper and lower rows.




I think that Halifax needs more time to consider the design, location and funding. Mayor Kelly is seeking a 6 month extension which sounds like a good idea - http://thechronicleherald.ca/metro/39247-kelly-seeks-soccer-bid-extension. I think the Councillors who plan to vote it down on Tuesday, December 6th are out of touch with reality and the over 70% of residents who stated that they would like to see a major stadium built. I don't think that most people expect the HRM to fund the entire cost, but the phase 2 report was just released on Friday, December 2nd so time is required to secure funding.

[ILoveHalifax]

It seems to me that we were told all along that we were in contact with funding partners. Wasn't the $20,000,000 put on the table so that we could be in negotiation with said partners, in order to be ready to move quickly once the report came thru.
As far as the government of Nova Scotia goes, they have no problem finding money to give to Irving even though it was not asked for. And we found money to lend to Bowater Mercey and also to buy $23,000,000 worth of forest land from them. Our fine premier might look around and see what he has for the citizens of Halifax

[Empire]

Originally Posted by ILoveHalifax

It seems to me that we were told all along that we were in contact with funding partners. Wasn't the $20,000,000 put on the table so that we could be in negotiation with said partners, in order to be ready to move quickly once the report came thru.
As far as the government of Nova Scotia goes, they have no problem finding money to give to Irving even though it was not asked for. And we found money to lend to Bowater Mercey and also to buy $23,000,000 worth of forest land from them. Our fine premier might look around and see what he has for the citizens of Halifax

There never were partners. The 20 million commitment was put in place so partners could be approached and council could say we have pledged this amount so what can you bring to the table. Dexter is a rural premier and a true NDPer. Take from the rich and give to the poor. His rural support loathes the idea of a stadium "for Halifax" as if it is a present like the Bowater handout. It will be hard to get him onside which seems odd given that HRM is painted orange.

[RyeJay]

With numbers up to 70% of Haligonians supporting a major stadium--I wonder which sport (soccer vs. football) is more favoured?

The FIFA event is influencing a soccer-first stadium. While CFL fans are supporting this, as it is an opportunity to actually build the required stadium, I'm gathering that the conceptual process isn't inclusive of these fans.

The direction this stadium is taking is not long term.

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by Empire

There never were partners. The 20 million commitment was put in place so partners could be approached and council could say we have pledged this amount so what can you bring to the table. Dexter is a rural premier and a true NDPer. Take from the rich and give to the poor. His rural support loathes the idea of a stadium "for Halifax" as if it is a present like the Bowater handout. It will be hard to get him onside which seems odd given that HRM is painted orange.

It'll be difficult to get Dexter onboard immediately.
It won't be difficult at all once Nova Scotia's economy picks up, which it will.

Not only is the FIFA event leading to a poor stadium, but FIFA is approaching quickly. Dexter's support may not show in due time.

Rural Nova Scotia aside, there is a great deal of support for a stadium inside Halifax. The city will eventually develop one, even if it's not for FIFA. There are always, always other events.

[RyeJay]

This is why Shannon Park is a more appropriate choice than Dartmouth Crossing:



Photo credit: smcclearn; smugmug pro.

[fenwick16]

You sold me with that picture. Nice find.

Now what about Premier Dexter? There is always some obstacle that keeps a stadium from being built.