High Speed Rail in Canada

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Jamaican-Phoenix

The point isn't that people listened or not (most Canadians tune out anything Quebec-related), it's that the complaint was made in the first place.

And my point is that concern about (not) 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 off Quebec didn't sway the decision at all. Just like naming a unilingual anglo Auditor-General, unilingual anglo Supreme Court judges, putting pictures of the Queen back up all over the place, cabinet ministers replacing bilingual business cards with English only ones, etc.

Never in living memory have Quebec and its preoccupations held so little "sway" federally.

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by davidivivid

The fact that the Davie yards didn't get any government contract did not cause much turmoil in Quebec City because most people were pragmatic about it, even though it meant that a lot of jobs would not be created in this City. Of course, some people were upset but do you really believe that if the Irving shipyards or Vancouver shipyards wouldn't have been awarded any government contract, there wouldn't have been any complaints emerging from Halifax or Vancouver?! Common now!!! With such a huge amount of money and job security involved, it was certain that some people would be bittersweet, no matter where they came from...

True, but it does seem that Quebec will complain and cringe about even the most trifling of issues at times. I guess it's just that hearing and seeing it so much tends to lead to the assumption that it will happen regardless.

I really believe in the Qc-Windsor corridor and would love to see the day when a high speed rail linking these two cities become a reality.

same here.

Originally Posted by Acajack

And my point is that concern about (not) 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 off Quebec didn't sway the decision at all. Just like naming a unilingual anglo Auditor-General, unilingual anglo Supreme Court judges, putting pictures of the Queen back up all over the place, cabinet ministers replacing bilingual business cards with English only ones, etc.

Never in living memory have Quebec and its preoccupations held so little "sway" federally.

Okay, I thought you were implying something else. On another note, no province should really have a lot of sway, but alas we must live in reality. Also, having a Conservative government could be a rather large contributing factor.

[MountainView]

Saw this in the Ottawa Citizen online today; thought it would be of interest! Personally I would spend the extra $2 billion for the electric trains, it's more sustainable and probably cheaper in the long run.

High-speed rail link feasible at $9.1B, study shows

By Lee Greenberg, The Ottawa Citizen

TORONTO — A high-speed rail link between Toronto, Ottawa and Montreal could be built for $9.1 billion, according to a federal government report released Tuesday.

The report states the long-discussed high-speed train could be a diesel model or a faster, electric version. The diesel trains would travel at 200 km/h and would cost $9.1 billion, while the electric trains would move at 300 km/h and cost $11 billion.

The authors of the report believe the Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal line “could generate a positive net economic benefit at both 200 and 300 km/h.”

A longer, more expensive route stretching from Windsor to Quebec City would cost $18.9 billion to $21.3 billion and would involve heavy government involvement with “no financial return on investment.”

The feasibility study was performed by a group of five international consulting firms, led by Dessau and including Deutsche Bahn International, KPMG, MMM Group and Wilbur Smith Associates.

Transport Canada as well as transportation ministries from Quebec and Ontario commissioned the study, which cost a reported $3.5 million.

Quebec Premier Jean Charest and Ontario Premier Dalton McGuinty have touted a high-speed rail link between the two provinces.

McGuinty called it a “game-changer” in 2010.

“It’s going to plug us into a North American network of high-speed rail,” he said at the time.

Charest called it “a once-in-a-lifetime” opportunity.

Link: http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/High+speed+rail+link+feasible+study+shows/5713154/story.html

[Innsertnamehere]

go for it! considering the Eglington subway is 9 billion, why not spend 11 billion on a link that assists 10 million people rather than 500,000? (plus i cant wait to be able to get to Montreal in 2 hours)

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Jamaican-Phoenix

True, but it does seem that Quebec will complain and cringe about even the most trifling of issues at times.

The way you phrase this makes it sound like "Quebec" is some kind of definite entity or maybe even a person. It's a province with 8 million people. With relatively little effort you could prod somebody in Quebec into complaining about any issue you liked.

Complaints from random uninformed people are not meaningful. All those articles demonstrate is that the media outlets believe that readers will pay attention to them. They say more about the rest of Canada than they do about Quebec.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

go for it! considering the Eglington subway is 9 billion, why not spend 11 billion on a link that assists 10 million people rather than 500,000? (plus i cant wait to be able to get to Montreal in 2 hours)

Yes, it sounds like a lot, but conservatively the Montreal-Toronto route would serve around 10,000,000 people. The service would therefore only work out to about $1000 per person, which is not bad if it is around for many decades.

I also think it is important to have electric trains in place now so that Canada's economy will be more robust in the future if there are fuel shortages.

Note that Quebec, Windsor, and other areas still benefit from the high-speed segment when they can connect through. It is probably also cost-effective to improve other parts of the passenger rail system without going all the way to HSR. A good way to look at this is probably to ask something like "how can we get the most out of $15B put into the system?"

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by someone123

The way you phrase this makes it sound like "Quebec" is some kind of definite entity or maybe even a person. It's a province with 8 million people. With relatively little effort you could prod somebody in Quebec into complaining about any issue you liked.

More often than not, I don't even have to prod for that to happen.

Getting back on topic though... THIS NEW LINE IS SO WORTH THE $11 BILLION FOR ELECTRIFICATION! LET'S DO IT!!!

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by someone123

Note that Quebec, Windsor, and other areas still benefit from the high-speed segment when they can connect through. It is probably also cost-effective to improve other parts of the passenger rail system without going all the way to HSR. A good way to look at this is probably to ask something like "how can we get the most out of $15B put into the system?"

As sound a policy that would be, I have little faith in our provincial and federal governments to be able to perform that task adequately.

[albertantraingeek]

Not another study/report! They all say feasible, so why don't just get it done & overwith? I may live in the CE corridor, but I would rather this one built before ours. I hope you guys get your well-deserved train, soon.

"There is a first for everything".

[eemy]

I came across this study on the MTO site, don't know if it's been linked here yet.


Updated Feasibility Study of a High Speed Rail Service in the Québec City – Windsor Corridor - June 2010

[MolsonExport]

Is it feasible to do another feasibility study on the feasibility of HSR? Separate feasibility studies should be done for each 100cm of the proposed trackage. Then after great fanfare, bury the studies to allow for more feasibility studies.

China builds railways.
We conduct feasibility studies ad nauseum.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by Jamaican-Phoenix

True, but it does seem that Quebec will complain and cringe about even the most trifling of issues at times. I guess it's just that hearing and seeing it so much tends to lead to the assumption that it will happen regardless.



.

A classic example of the self-fulfilling prophesy. If you search for confirming evidence you are most certain to find it.
My poor monolithic home province.

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Is it feasible to do another feasibility study on the feasibility of HSR? Separate feasibility studies should be done for each 100cm of the proposed trackage. Then after great fanfare, bury the studies to allow for more feasibility studies.

China builds railways.
We conduct feasibility studies ad nauseum.

True, but China's Rail/Infrastructure Ministry or management service is bankrupt, so I wouldn't like to use them as a prime example.

You are correct about the studies. With all the studies done, we could've paid for the entire HSR system by now.

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

A classic example of the self-fulfilling prophesy. If you search for confirming evidence you are most certain to find it.
My poor monolithic home province.

Hey man, I'm part Quebecois. Every time I knock the province, I'm knocking my own heritage.

[Taeolas]

Can't do a Youtube search at work, but Rick Mercer had a great skit a month or two back, about how Canada's become the #1 producer of HSR Feasibility studies.

The sad thing is, don't most of those studies say that it will probably do well, as long as we got off our duffs and actually DID it? Sure there are risks, but really, that corridor seems like a no brainer if I ever saw one.

[Jstaleness]

I think this is it.

• Video Link

[ssiguy]

What I'm curious about is how long it would take to get from Toronto to Montreal if the line went via Ottawa.
The trains would certainly TRAVEL faster but would they actually ARRIVE faster?
The route via Oiiawa is both indirect and requires a stop over. Will that extra time required nearly negate and time saved by faster trains?
If by going via Ottawa, you only save half an hour or so it is a complete waste of money.
Also, it seems to suggest that the entire Quebec=Windsor corridor may not be worth it but what about just going to west to London or east to Quebec or a combination?

[Innsertnamehere]

I was thinking more of a Toronto-Kingston-Montreal line, with a branch off at Kingston that goes to Ottawa.

[north 42]

Ottawa is close enough to Montreal that it really doesn't even really need to have a line going directly into the city.

[north 42]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

What I'm curious about is how long it would take to get from Toronto to Montreal if the line went via Ottawa.
The trains would certainly TRAVEL faster but would they actually ARRIVE faster?
The route via Oiiawa is both indirect and requires a stop over. Will that extra time required nearly negate and time saved by faster trains?
If by going via Ottawa, you only save half an hour or so it is a complete waste of money.
Also, it seems to suggest that the entire Quebec=Windsor corridor may not be worth it but what about just going to west to London or east to Quebec or a combination?

It wouldn't make any sense to build a line just to London from Toronto, it would have to be built all the way to Windsor and then connect to Detroit and Chicago to make it profitable.

[lrt's friend]

Ottawa is close enough to Montreal that it really doesn't even really need to have a line going directly into the city.

It wouldn't make any sense to build a line just to London from Toronto, it would have to be built all the way to Windsor

Isn't this rather contradictory logic? Ottawa is further away from Montreal than Windsor from London and Ottawa is about 5 times the size compared to Windsor. Ottawa is the third most important destination on a Ontario-Quebec high speed rail network. HSR will not be successful if it reaches Windsor before Ottawa. Ottawans will not travel to Windsor Station in Montreal to use HSR.