High Speed Rail in Canada

[Razor]

This article is hot of the press..Nothing really new as far as information, but it's nice to know that it's being written about.

By Postmedia News

"A study into the feasibility of a high-speed train link in the Windsor-Quebec City corridor shows the project could benefit the entire Canadian economy. Pictured is a Via Train on the rail line between Ottawa and Montreal.
QUEBEC — A study into the feasibility of a high-speed train link in the Windsor-Quebec City corridor shows the project could benefit the entire Canadian economy. The report conducted by the EcoTrain consortium — grouping Dessau, MMM Group, KPMG, Wilbur Smith & Associates, and Deutsche Bahn International — was released Monday by High Speed Rail Canada, an advocacy group which promotes the service.
The federal government has yet to release the study publicly.
"The taxpayers have a right to see it. We have posted it on our website. Canada is 30 years behind the rest of the modern world in passenger rail. It is a national embarrassment," said Paul Langan, president of High Speed Rail Canada.
The fast train would cost between $18.9 and $21.3 billion depending on the chosen technology and yield revenues between $1.21 and $1.48 billion, according to the study financed equally by the federal government and the governments of Quebec and Ontario.
The study points out that the Quebec City-Windsor route would not be financially viable as a whole, but notes that the Montreal-Toronto segment, as well as the Quebec City-Toronto segments would benefit the entire Canadian economy, not just that of Ontario and Quebec.
The $3-million study looked at two high-speed technologies, one diesel train travelling at 200 km/h and a 300km/h electric powered train. Both would be suitable for the corridor, but the study notes the worldwide trend is the faster electric train.
The Quebec City-Windsor corridor would attract more than 10 million passengers in 2031 and serve the cities of Quebec City, Trois-Rivieres, Montreal, Ottawa, Kingston, Toronto, London and Windsor."

© Copyright (c) Postmedia News

[north 42]

How could Quebec City to Montreal be more viable than Toronto to Windsor? We have way more population in Southwest Ontario than they have between Quebec City and Montreal, plus we would have connections to 30 million more people in the Midwest US.

I just don't get their reasoning, unless it has to do with not wanting to piss off Quebec, because we all know that isn't hard to do.

[Vaillant]

Originally Posted by north 42

How could Quebec City to Montreal be more viable than Toronto to Windsor? We have way more population in Southwest Ontario than they have between Quebec City and Montreal, plus we would have connections to 30 million more people in the Midwest US.

I just don't get their reasoning, unless it has to do with not wanting to piss off Quebec, because we all know that isn't hard to do.

many people travel for business between Quebec city and Montreal not as much then Toronto and windsor

[jigglysquishy]

A Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal line should be built and then later we can add on a Windor and Quebec line. Its not hard to do.

[Dirt_Devil]

Originally Posted by north 42

I just don't get their reasoning, unless it has to do with not wanting to piss off Quebec, because we all know that isn't hard to do.

Ok probably it

Originally Posted by north 42

How could Quebec City to Montreal be more viable than Toronto to Windsor? We have way more population in Southwest Ontario than they have between Quebec City and Montreal, plus we would have connections to 30 million more people in the Midwest US.

They wrote about Mtl-TO route being more viable than Windsor-TO (for obvious reason). Then wrote Qc City - TO route would also be viable. It makes sense since Mtl - TO is already viable...and you can easily imagine a Qc City - Mtl route being viable as well...

In case you don't know it, a minimum of 75%-80% of Quebec's total population live in or between the cities of Québec City and Montréal which is more than 6 million people...it looks enough to me to make a route viable when you take into consideration that both cities have strong ties economically speaking.

I am sure the TO-London route would be viable as well. As for London - Windsor, it would probably not be viable since the population is not that high. But this segment is still needed IMO.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by north 42

¸

I just don't get their reasoning, unless it has to do with not wanting to piss off Quebec, because we all know that isn't hard to do.

I don't really think that ''not 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 off Quebec'' is that big a concern in the post-May-2011 Canada, to be quite honest.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Vaillant

many people travel for business between Quebec city and Montreal not as much then Toronto and windsor

I did a quick check of traffic volumes on the highways and the counts are fairly high for Montreal going to Trois-Rivières as well as from Toronto-London. But then it drops off when you get to the stretch between London and Windsor.

Quebec City-Montreal actually has two highways, the 40 and the 20. The 40 has about 17,000 aadt in its least busy stretches, while the 20 is around 25,000. The 401's least busy sections between Windsor and London are around 25,000, and it's also the only direct highway on the route.

Bottom line: Montreal-Quebec City appears to be a busier corridor than Toronto-Windsor (which also happens to be a lot further as well). Toronto-London on the other hand looks as busy or busier, plus it has other good sized cities on the potential routing: K-W, Guelph, Hamilton...

Nothing against Windsor but you'd likely need the tie-in with Detroit-Chicago to justify building a line all the way down there.

[Vertigo3000]

Is there not two different American proposals that come close to the borders? Detroit going west and Buffalo going to New York? It would be more viable to build the high speed rail in the south-west of Ontario, just for the purpose of connections.
Also, Boston wants a connection to Montreal.

[eemy]

Originally Posted by Vertigo3000

Is there not two different American proposals that come close to the borders? Detroit going west and Buffalo going to New York? It would be more viable to build the high speed rail in the south-west of Ontario, just for the purpose of connections.
Also, Boston wants a connection to Montreal.

There is something innately satisfying about connecting the dots; however, it is far more beneficial to incrementally expand a system as demand warrants. The fact is that there is very little demand for international high speed rail connections to those cities, at least as it compares to our domestic ones. In the future, once a domestic network has been established and VIA and Amtrak have a more solid passenger base, it will make sense to consider connecting the networks. Doing so now is premature.

[haljackey]

I don't care anymore. Just build the dam thing.

We've been doing studies and assessments since the 1960s. With all the time and money spent on those we could have had the thing done by now.

Honestly.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by jeremy_haak

There is something innately satisfying about connecting the dots; however, it is far more beneficial to incrementally expand a system as demand warrants. The fact is that there is very little demand for international high speed rail connections to those cities, at least as it compares to our domestic ones. In the future, once a domestic network has been established and VIA and Amtrak have a more solid passenger base, it will make sense to consider connecting the networks. Doing so now is premature.

This article supports what you are saying!

http://pedestrianobservations.wordpress.com/2011/06/19/international-links-underperform/

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I don't really think that ''not 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 off Quebec'' is that big a concern in the post-May-2011 Canada, to be quite honest.

And yet Nycole Turmel and the NDP complained about Quebec not getting any of the shipping contracs that were awarded instead to Nova Scotia and BC...

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Jamaican-Phoenix

And yet Nycole Turmel and the NDP complained about Quebec not getting any of the shipping contracs that were awarded instead to Nova Scotia and BC...

And the result of that was???? Did anybody listen????

[Razor]

I'm a little skeptical myself on whether there is a need for the Montreal - Ottawa portion..Whenever I drive to Montreal from Ottawa, the 417 ,and ultimately the 40 is a breeze..Never really much traffic until you hit the outskirts of Montreal..That is, if this whole idea of high speed rail to take more cars off the road, and not to increase speed between the 2 cities..The 401 to Toronto is a different matter.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Razor

I'm a little skeptical myself on whether there is a need for the Montreal - Ottawa portion..Whenever I drive to Montreal from Ottawa, the 417 ,and ultimately the 40 is a breeze..Never really much traffic until you hit the outskirts of Montreal..That is, if this whole idea of high speed rail to take more cars off the road, and not to increase speed between the 2 cities..The 401 to Toronto is a different matter.

You are correct that traffic is not a problem but it would be very foolish to bypass a metro of 1.3 million people and all of its potential passengers to both Montreal AND Toronto.

Plus the 417 does not give the entire picture as there is a lot of Gatineau-Montreal traffic that uses the 50-148-50 route.

[north 42]

Southwestern Ontario cannot be looked at in isolation, the reason to have high speed rail here is mainly the Midwestern connections, not just to serve Windsor or London. The busiest border in North America is not something you can ignore when making these very important decisions.

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Acajack

And the result of that was???? Did anybody listen????

The point isn't that people listened or not (most Canadians tune out anything Quebec-related), it's that the complaint was made in the first place.

[Razor]

Originally Posted by Acajack

You are correct that traffic is not a problem but it would be very foolish to bypass a metro of 1.3 million people and all of its potential passengers to both Montreal AND Toronto.

Plus the 417 does not give the entire picture as there is a lot of Gatineau-Montreal traffic that uses the 50-148-50 route.

My bad..You are totally correct..I failed to take into account the Gatineau side, which has it's own independant route to Montreal, so maybe the combined potential ridership from both sides of the river would warrant it.
I just find from personal experience that driving is much more convenient to get from Ottawa to Montreal..Parking in Montreal is real cheap and plentiful IMO .It would have to be high speed to get me on the train..Currently VIA gets you to Montreal the same time as driving, so there is no real incentive.
If I can get to Montreal in 45 min. to an hour, I'll be sold!...Maybe when I become a pensioner the HST tracks will be laid, and at that point I won't want to drive anyways.

[sebast13]

It makes me laugh how many english canadians point at Quebec's demands just like english canadians never demand anything to the government. You call it draping yourself in virtue before spitting on your neighbors. It's as if we don't have the right to demand anything because we're different from them It's very annoying.

About the high speed rail; let's built the damn thing. Fast.

[davidivivid]

Originally Posted by Jamaican-Phoenix

The point isn't that people listened or not (most Canadians tune out anything Quebec-related), it's that the complaint was made in the first place.

The fact that the Davie yards didn't get any government contract did not cause much turmoil in Quebec City because most people were pragmatic about it, even though it meant that a lot of jobs would not be created in this City. Of course, some people were upset but do you really believe that if the Irving shipyards or Vancouver shipyards wouldn't have been awarded any government contract, there wouldn't have been any complaints emerging from Halifax or Vancouver?! Common now!!! With such a huge amount of money and job security involved, it was certain that some people would be bittersweet, no matter where they came from...

Anyway, I have lived in France and I enjoyed the TGV tremendously. I really believe in the Qc-Windsor corridor and would love to see the day when a high speed rail linking these two cities become a reality.