ATLANTA | Development Thread V

[sevensixtwo]

Yay!

[UVAsuperman]

The AGL Resources parking lot combined with the entire block to the south (sans Ecco) would be a great place to put some midrise apartments/condos with some street level retail--to help densify Midtown, decrease crime in that area, and continue to stitch together a true urban flavor in Midtown. Think Emory Pointe dropped into those two blocks...

[gttx]

For some reason I have it in my head that the 3 MARTA stations in Midtown were all designed to accommodate buildings on top of them. So the "MARTA needs to stop being lazy and wasteful and sell some of its land" mentality is sort of silly. It's just complicated and expensive to build over these stations, and since demand is so low for typical projects anyway, I don't see it happening any time soon.

[micropundit]

The Atlanta Falcons and Georgia World Congress Center will soon send out a request for proposals to potential designers of a new football stadium.

Falcons and GWCC officials expect to issue the RFP by the end of November for national and international architects to provide conceptual designs for a new open-air football stadium. The new stadium would be located north of the Falcons existing home — the Georgia Dome — at the intersection of Northside Drive and Ivan Allen Jr. Boulevard.











http://www.bizjournals.com/atlanta/print...cons-to-kick-off-new-stadium-design.html

[simms3_redux]

Originally Posted by gttx

For some reason I have it in my head that the 3 MARTA stations in Midtown were all designed to accommodate buildings on top of them. So the "MARTA needs to stop being lazy and wasteful and sell some of its land" mentality is sort of silly. It's just complicated and expensive to build over these stations, and since demand is so low for typical projects anyway, I don't see it happening any time soon.

No what you are saying is silly. MARTA occupies some of the most prime real estate in the south, and it has for decades. If a private development were meant to go on top of the stations, at least one would have something on top of it by now. MARTA has a suburban park and ride type footprint in an urban area with intense land uses.


Art Center Station - the best example of what I am talking about. I live nearly across from this ugly mammoth and it is the station I use most frequently. I have never seen a transit station so large in such a dense area.


Midtown Station - Not nearly as bad, but the way it is set up on the Fed (Tenth St) side seems like enough. The Peachtree Place entrance and exit takes up too much land, and notice the parcels jutting into the Cousins parking lot. Those are MARTA parcels. Also notice the big concrete "box" in the middle of the parking lot...an air vent for MARTA.


North Avenue Station - It's ok, especially given the nature of the area, but I feel like it still could occupy a smaller footprint.


L5P - Wow. Just Wow. I know this is the central station and all, but really? This thing completely occupies way too much land. At the very least, especially considering the nature of the location and its role as the central hub, it could look a little more attractive.


Peachtree Center Station has very nicely integrated entrances/exits at Peachtree Center. Then it also has these "things". The one next to the Ellis is currently closed, so why even have it at all? That makes 4 entrances and exits in a row...i.e. redundancy.


Contrast with Buckhead Station. Built over a highway with a tiny little footprint on the street. This is how they all should be built. A curb cutout for busses to pull in and an opening for the escalator to go down. None of this subway castle crap. Ironic how the Buckhead Station actually has by far the smallest footprint of every MARTA station in town.


Even the Vine City station takes up less space than the stations right in the hearts of Midtown and Downtown.


A suburban format station - Ashby Station. Small parking lot, small footprint, ability to put mixed use TOD developments right alongside the station.


Hopefully these aerials courtesy of Bing Maps illustrate my point.

[mayhem]

You are incorrect. Midtown station is most certainly designed to host a tower on top of it, as are several others in the city. Why would you build on top of something right now when there is much more complication in doing so than building on one of the millions of lots in Atlanta that are nothing but surface parking lots?

[atl2phx]

Originally Posted by mayhem

You are incorrect. Midtown station is most certainly designed to host a tower on top of it, as are several others in the city. Why would you build on top of something right now when there is much more complication in doing so than building on one of the millions of lots in Atlanta that are nothing but surface parking lots?

thanks for clarifying....i thought this was the case.

[atl2phx]

Originally Posted by simms3_redux

No what you are saying is silly.
Hopefully these aerials courtesy of Bing Maps illustrate my point.

your conjecture is silly, silly.
posting aerials as evidence adds no value.
the market isn't driven by the opportunity to develop air rights. there are many other variables that drive a developer to pour capital into development.

[gttx]

Originally Posted by atl2phx

your conjecture is silly, silly.
posting aerials as evidence adds no value.
the market isn't driven by the opportunity to develop air rights. there are many other variables that drive a developer to pour capital into development.

Well, I actually think he has a point.

The problem is not that MARTA wasn't built to accommodate buildings above in Midtown (it was). The problem is that they didn't make it easy to do so - and in any economy, building on top of giant stations is complicated and expensive, especially when plenty of surface lots are available. In a down economy, it ain't happening.

So you are sort of right. The footprints are too big. But selling off pieces isn't as easy as you are making it sound.

[simms3_redux]

There is no easy solution and I know what drives development demand in a nutshell, I am in real estate after all. My point is that I would rather the forces come together to improve Midtown transit/MARTA stations before we spend $23M on the Buckhead Station, and I have given my reasons.

Also you can't plop a building down onto any of those stations. Perhaps Midtown Station and only Midtown Station can structurally support a mid-rise tower on top of it. How are you going to work the lobby? Currently there are bus lanes and all sorts of unnecessary transit footprint occupying what would be the first floor of any given building on that site.

My other point also had to do with the fact that Buckhead Station has almost no footprint, yet supports trains and busses. It is in a suburban area. Midtown/Downtown stations occupy HUGE footprints and are in urban locations. There is an irony here. Buckhead is closer in suburban layout to Central Perimeter than it is to the gridded Midtown/Downtown, and we all know Central Perimeter has 3 Park N Ride MARTA stations. If anything, Buckhead should almost be park and ride, yet it has an urban footprint metro station.

Many more people in Midtown/Downtown take transit and can walk to the stations, so park and ride is not necessary, yet stations like Art Center and L5P have the same footprint just about as the huge park and ride stations in Central Perimeter! Surely this is painfully obviously ironic and something that should be addressed if we are going to start improving stations and expanding our transit system.

[simms3_redux]

Originally Posted by atl2phx

your conjecture is silly, silly.
posting aerials as evidence adds no value.
the market isn't driven by the opportunity to develop air rights. there are many other variables that drive a developer to pour capital into development.

I think they make my point quite nicely. My point is that IF we are going to drop $23M on station improvements, let's go for the real necessary improvements. Nobody in One/Two Alliance Center is going to walk a quarter mile to the MARTA. Nobody in Mansion is going to take MARTA. Parking is too free and abundant all throughout that area for it to really be "convenient" to use MARTA in Buckhead. Buckhead Station turns its back on the highway/MARTA and has a double decker parking lot in front. An additional 3,000 estimated people will have access to the station once the improvements are done...these are residents in Paramount and Mansion and office workers in One/Two Alliance, 3340 Peachtree, and Monarch Tower. That does not mean that even close to 3,000 additional people will use that station. So we might at best be spending $23M on 1,000 additional people/day, which would be significant if not unrealistic. Let's say they pay $5.00 a day to ride MARTA...so that's $5,000/day, 5 days a week, 50 weeks a year. $1,250,000/year in additional fare revenue for a $23M project. Factoring in an appropriate discount rate and you're looking at a payback of 30+ years!

Spend $10M (my estimate) to phase out the Peachtree Pl side of Midtown Station, putting in curb cuts for bus service, and reworking ventilation. Then just give to Cousins the 3 parcels encumbering their lot (this is being conservative). Watch at least 1,000-2,000 more people start to use the smaller station over the next couple years simply due to inevitable developments in the immediate area and you're looking at a payback MUCH quicker than the Buckhead Station payback.

[simms3_redux]

Pics from my balcony Friday evening.

[mike1986]

Originally Posted by skapunkskatedude

http://www.ajc.com/business/medical-field-growth-boosts-948556.html

Nice to see some construction on Peachtree Road. A little more density and street presence, it all adds up

So there is finally a construction fence up around the old TGI Fridays on Peachtree, which probably means demolition and construction will begin soon. This new medical building will look much better than another suburban restaurant.

Also, Oliver McMillan put up a bunch of new fencing/signs and has been cleaning up the site of "Buckhead Atlanta". Not much, but makes you feel more confident that this is actually going to be completed.

[briantech]

Originally Posted by simms3_redux

I think they make my point quite nicely. My point is that IF we are going to drop $23M on station improvements, let's go for the real necessary improvements. Nobody in One/Two Alliance Center is going to walk a quarter mile to the MARTA. Nobody in Mansion is going to take MARTA. Parking is too free and abundant all throughout that area for it to really be "convenient" to use MARTA in Buckhead. Buckhead Station turns its back on the highway/MARTA and has a double decker parking lot in front. An additional 3,000 estimated people will have access to the station once the improvements are done...these are residents in Paramount and Mansion and office workers in One/Two Alliance, 3340 Peachtree, and Monarch Tower. That does not mean that even close to 3,000 additional people will use that station. So we might at best be spending $23M on 1,000 additional people/day, which would be significant if not unrealistic. Let's say they pay $5.00 a day to ride MARTA...so that's $5,000/day, 5 days a week, 50 weeks a year. $1,250,000/year in additional fare revenue for a $23M project. Factoring in an appropriate discount rate and you're looking at a payback of 30+ years!

Spend $10M (my estimate) to phase out the Peachtree Pl side of Midtown Station, putting in curb cuts for bus service, and reworking ventilation. Then just give to Cousins the 3 parcels encumbering their lot (this is being conservative). Watch at least 1,000-2,000 more people start to use the smaller station over the next couple years simply due to inevitable developments in the immediate area and you're looking at a payback MUCH quicker than the Buckhead Station payback.

I'd much rather them spend that money on laying new track and making new stations. There are plenty of parking lots in midtown, downtown, etc to develop on, its not like the marta stations taking up 10,000 extra SQ ft is the last spots available to develop on in those areas.

Stations that exist, period, are better than no station at all.

[cityenthusiast]

Does anyone know what's going on with 77 12th street. The last article talking about the development said construction was scheduled to begin in October. Has anyone seen any activity at the site or heard anything lately?

[mike1986]

Originally Posted by cityenthusiast

Does anyone know what's going on with 77 12th street. The last article talking about the development said construction was scheduled to begin in October. Has anyone seen any activity at the site or heard anything lately?

When I drove by last week they spray painted "X's" on all the trees within the site, so I'm sure a fence and construction equipment will be arriving soon.

[simms3_redux]

Not only that, but I had an interesting conversation today about another Midtown project/tower in the works. I swore to keep my mouth shut, but progress is being made and there is a lender (which was disclosed to me). The project is supposedly going to committee for final approval next week, so we may have a very public announcement coming soon. Once it is all public, I have some juicy details on the project that I can say without getting into trouble ha.

PS, if anyone knows definitive rates for Midtown retail space, please PM me with information. I am doing a favor for the team representing the lender, and they want to know going rates and average recoverables for the area. I have some info, but anything is appreciated!

What I can say from this conversation is that institutional capital is really taking Midtown seriously from both a debt and equity perspective, and it's anyone's easy best guess what product is being financed right now.

77 12th has pulled permits for initial site work. Beyond that I don't know that they have pulled permits for full on construction. That project is set in stone.

[AtlantaMustang]

Here's a panorama I took tonight from the Gatech observatory.

[briantech]

Snapped some more recent pictures from my balcony of the giant dirt "structure" that is being built in one of the parking lots on Spring St in midtown.

Anyone know exactly what it is for?

http://bit.ly/vdf7q4

[AtlantaMustang]

It's for Cavalia - http://blogs.ajc.com/arts-culture/2011/0...unced-for-cavalia-return-starting-dec-7/