Halifax Stadium Discussion

[the shadow warrior]

Originally Posted by CorbeauNoir

I don't have any numbers in front of me but from what I recall the CFL generally wants something like ~25k seats for regular games and ~45+k for the Grey Cup. (ed.)

What I don't really understand is that the numbers are about the same for what FIFA is after for WWC-acceptable venues, and that is ostensibly what this prospective stadium is being built for in the first place. So why the hell is a 10k-seat stadium being suggested at all? I know that those parameters have been proposed for a while now but it still makes absolutely no sense to me.

CorbeauNoir there is no visible long term tenant for a Stadium in the HRM and thus no business case at this time. The sensible first business is with the Fifa Womens Worlds but the 60 million dollar estimate may indeed be way too low. Kansas City recently completed a 20000 seat , all spectators under cover stadium for 200 million dollars. The Renderings presented at the public meetings for the HRM Stadium have two main grandstands with roofs covering the spectators.
Entertaining Fifa even for a womens tournament is a quick way to cost overruns. Chile in 2008 hosted the U 20 womens with four Stadia. Of four existing Stadia Three were completely torn down and rebuild with Roofing covering 100 percent of the spectators . The Fourth had to have extensive renovations to make the existing Roof go from covering 80 percent of the roof to 100 percent.Chile is at least 20 places back from Canada in size of economy.

Considering the Fifa Womens World coordinator Tatjana Haenni recently said in Ottawa that Edmonton's Commonwealth Stadium needed upgrades to host it really looks like a bad idea to entertain hosting Fifa. With Canada being the only country to hold up our hands for this tournament you would think the demands would be reserved from Fifa. Maybe what we have to do is start saying no to carpetbaggers like Fifa and the Commonwealth Games people.

[the shadow warrior]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

Hopefully they will design it with at least 15,000 permanent seats and build it so that it can be expanded to 40,000 - 45,000 if ever required. It is easy to imagine Halifax getting a CFL team in a partially expanded stadium, and also Canada will likely host the FIFA Men's Cup sometime in the next 20 - 30 years and then Halifax would need 40,000 - 45,000 seats to be one of several host cities.

But there is reason for optimism. HRM will possibly pledge $20 million towards a stadium next week. My concern is with the provincial government. It is so much easier for them to pledge funding for roads out in rural areas where they aren't really required since no one seems to oppose more unnecessary rural roads.

And why are rural roads un needed when the bulk of the business wealth is generated in Rural Nova Scotia ? Ever here of Sobeys ? They happen to be Head Quartered in Stellarton NS and they are indeed Nova Scotia's largest company. How about Eastlink Communications ? Oxford NS. Scotburn Dairies ? Again a huge company out or rural Nova Scotia.

The HRM is a Government/ University town and that is about it really.

[Empire]

Originally Posted by the shadow warrior

And why are rural roads un needed when the bulk of the business wealth is generated in Rural Nova Scotia ? Ever here of Sobeys ? They happen to be Head Quartered in Stellarton NS and they are indeed Nova Scotia's largest company. How about Eastlink Communications ? Oxford NS. Scotburn Dairies ? Again a huge company out or rural Nova Scotia.

The HRM is a Government/ University town and that is about it really.

You really are a shadow. Corporate tax and individual income tax from HRM keep this province alive. Many rural companies are propped up by tax breaks and payroll incentives. Michelin is a good example of getting breaks but it works. It works because HRM pays the tab and gets no support from the provincial government. Dexter should be ashamed of himself and his party.

After the monster black eye we received from bailing out of the Commonwealth Games we better do everything possible to ensure that doesn't happen this time. I hope HRM makes an official ask of the province for their share of $20 million and don't get duped by Dexter's warning not to bother him.

[the shadow warrior]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

The fact is that Halifax needs a stadium and then an owner. Why would the CFL reject Halifax if it has those two things? Halifax was awarded a conditional franchise 30 years ago, they had an owner and location picked out. They were ready to go and planned to finance a $6 million dollar stadium but couldn't even get a loan guarantee from the provincial government. So without a stadium no one in their right mind would take a chance on a Halifax-area CFL team.

Have you heard of the 2015 World Women's Cup? If Halifax builds a stadium it will be a host city Do you know that the 2011 World Women's Cup was broadcast to 200 countries and received regular coverage on the US and Canadian networks? So Halifax will be involved in an event that will receive far more press than the Commonwealth Games at about 1/50th the cost. It sounds like a great deal to me.

As you know, getting all the funding in place is not a sure thing. If the HRM approves the funding, they will still have to get Premier Dexter to provide funding. Without Premier Dexter, MP Peter MacKay has said that the federal government won't be involved either. The good news for Halifax sports fans is that the shipbuilding contract will be announced the day before this is presented to HRM Council. If either contract is awarded to Halifax then maybe even Premier Dexter will be happy enough to fund a small part of the stadium cost.

Actually your reciting of Stadium History in regards to the Atlantic Schooners is incorrect. The driving forces behind both the stadium and the CFL team were two gentlemen . J L Albriet and RB Cameron. The late RB Cameron was the money behind the operation as he owned Maritime Steel , Cameron Corp and Cameron Publishing. His Fortune was made via steel construction projects including the Wheat Elevators in South End Halifax , The Decking for the MacKay Bridge , The Canso Causeway Locks and about half of the steel bridges in the region. RB Cameron asked JL Albriet what he could look forward to for profits for a CFL team . JL Albriet informed RB Cameron that Cameron would lose money. Cameron Closed his cheque book and the scheme collapsed. RB Cameron and JL Albriet it is rumored to have purchased an old scoreboard from the New England Patriots and that was rumored to be in storage in Burnside

[the shadow warrior]

Originally Posted by Empire

You really are a shadow. Corporate tax and individual income tax from HRM keep this province alive. Many rural companies are propped up by tax breaks and payroll incentives. Michelin is a good example of getting breaks but it works. It works because HRM pays the tab and gets no support from the provincial government. Dexter should be ashamed of himself and his party.

After the monster black eye we received from bailing out of the Commonwealth Games we better do everything possible to ensure that doesn't happen this time. I hope HRM makes an official ask of the province for their share of $20 and don't get duped by Dexter's warning not to bother him.

Dexter has no choice because funding for the Convention center from the Feds is at the expense of Road building funding. Halifax is a drain on the province actually a bloated civil service that is inefficient and costly in terms of Pension Liabilities IE Dalhousie University at over 250 million in liabilities. The Teacher Union which is looking for another Billion. The public civil servants in the province mostly reside in the HRM and they have pension liabilities of hundreds of millions as well. Dexter has more at stake in rural nova scotia as now the majority of the NDP MLA's are from anywhere but the HRM.

Dexter knows what pushed him into a majority government was Rural Nova Scotia and he plans to hold on to power. 50 people at two public meetings in the HRM does not spell a great number of votes if he was to fund a stadium . Funding a Stadium with Cuts to Yarmouth Ferries, School Boards and Hospitals would be political suicide both in Rural Nova Scotia and the HRM

The Stadium is not going to become a reality

[Empire]

Originally Posted by the shadow warrior

Dexter has no choice because funding for the Convention center from the Feds is at the expense of Road building funding. Halifax is a drain on the province actually a bloated civil service that is inefficient and costly in terms of Pension Liabilities IE Dalhousie University at over 250 million in liabilities. The Teacher Union which is looking for another Billion. The public civil servants in the province mostly reside in the HRM and they have pension liabilities of hundreds of millions as well. Dexter has more at stake in rural nova scotia as now the majority of the NDP MLA's are from anywhere but the HRM.

Dexter knows what pushed him into a majority government was Rural Nova Scotia and he plans to hold on to power. 50 people at two public meetings in the HRM does not spell a great number of votes if he was to fund a stadium . Funding a Stadium with Cuts to Yarmouth Ferries, School Boards and Hospitals would be political suicide both in Rural Nova Scotia and the HRM

The Stadium is not going to become a reality

Oh that clarifies the issue. You're saying that if HRM wasn't here then every town from Ecum Secum to Whitney Pier to Pinkneys Point would be thriving?

Halifax can easily establish itself at the economic, cultural, educational and cosmopolitan centre of Atlantic Canada. A stadium is an important part of that structure.

Dexter need not formulate too many strategies for mustering votes as he will be thrown out of office in the next election!

[beyeas]

Originally Posted by the shadow warrior

Dexter has no choice because funding for the Convention center from the Feds is at the expense of Road building funding.

Ah I see... I am sure you raised the same concerns when rec facilities were built in rural NS with the same fund, right?

Originally Posted by the shadow warrior

Halifax is a drain on the province...

LMFAO Thanks for the laugh.
Please read this... although I am sure that what you will take from it is that it is all Halifax's fault (cue "The March of the Emperor" theme music from Star Wars):

http://www.thechronicleherald.ca/node/25409

There is an easy way to solve the problem... let Halifax keep the wealth it generates, and let the rural areas keep there's... quite an easy test of who is a drain on who I would say. After that... get back to me so we can deal in reality again.

[someone123]

It might make rural residents feel better to have somebody to blame but technology and globalization are the reasons why rural areas are in decline, not Halifax or a scheming provincial government. We just don't need 90% of people living on farms anymore, and business that can locate anywhere naturally gravitates toward larger cities because of their economies of scale.

The claim that Halifax is all government is obviously wrong. Statistics Canada keeps track of labour force characteristics and public sector employment. Federal employment in Halifax is something like 9,000. The labour force is around 230,000, implying that federal jobs only employ 4%. It is improbable that the province, municipality, and universities float the remaining 96%. The economy of rural NS simply cannot prop up a city of 400,000+ with government jobs.

It is also incorrect to claim that Dalhousie in particular is a drain on the province's coffers. It brings in far more out of province money than any other university in the province (I would guess SMU with its above average international enrollment is second) and spins off many local businesses. The NS students who go to Dal make above average earnings afterward and pay disproportionately high taxes. Halifax-area universities are in fact a kind of golden goose for the NS economy, and rural areas had nothing to do with their creation.

[the shadow warrior]

Well if Halifax is such an economic and business engine then where is the private funding behind the desires of the 50 senior citizens who appeared to support the Stadium Concept at the two public meetings the other night ?
Mickey MacDonald the man who sold Downeast Mobility to Bell Certainly wasn't there !!!! He was probably packing up fixtures from Palooka Gym to install in the new stadium LOL. Richard Homberg is in a battle to retain ownership for his own company.

The Winnipeg Blue Bombers have 44 years to pay back a 140 million dollar loan for the province of Manitoba for their new stadium. That is how sound vaulted spin-offs from entertainment are in a Canadian City with Twice Halifax's population. Ottawa with Twice the population of the HRM failed with two franchises.

The turn out and the make up of the turn out shows , young people were not there . Senior Citizens lamenting that they wished the CFL would locate to the HRM shows the interest is not in this city. Something happened between the visit of Fifa and these public meetings. The Council found out that Fifa is not the means to contain a budget plan for a city that has no room to increase taxes .

Nice try Mayor Kelly .

[the shadow warrior]

Originally Posted by Empire

Oh that clarifies the issue. You're saying that if HRM wasn't here then every town from Ecum Secum to Whitney Pier to Pinkneys Point would be thriving?

Halifax can easily establish itself at the economic, cultural, educational and cosmopolitan centre of Atlantic Canada. A stadium is an important part of that structure.

Dexter need not formulate too many strategies for mustering votes as he will be thrown out of office in the next election!

The Comsopolitan Centre of Altantic Canada is rapidly becoming Moncton LOL. They have the successful track record in all they do. Halifax well may I say 375,000 people didn't show much interest in the Black Eyed peas LOL. Moncton has the Stadium because they don't have the ego to think of hosting a commonwealth games.

[the shadow warrior]

Originally Posted by someone123

It might make rural residents feel better to have somebody to blame but technology and globalization are the reasons why rural areas are in decline, not Halifax or a scheming provincial government. We just don't need 90% of people living on farms anymore, and business that can locate anywhere naturally gravitates toward larger cities because of their economies of scale.

The claim that Halifax is all government is obviously wrong. Statistics Canada keeps track of labour force characteristics and public sector employment. Federal employment in Halifax is something like 9,000. The labour force is around 230,000, implying that federal jobs only employ 4%. It is improbable that the province, municipality, and universities float the remaining 96%. The economy of rural NS simply cannot prop up a city of 400,000+ with government jobs.

It is also incorrect to claim that Dalhousie in particular is a drain on the province's coffers. It brings in far more out of province money than any other university in the province (I would guess SMU with its above average international enrollment is second) and spins off many local businesses. The NS students who go to Dal make above average earnings afterward and pay disproportionately high taxes. Halifax-area universities are in fact a kind of golden goose for the NS economy, and rural areas had nothing to do with their creation.

And again Universities are the Government by another name. Students in Canada barely pay 20 percent of the cost of their educations . If you Grad from University and then go to work for the municipal , provincial or federal governments then you indeed product nothing . You are on the repository for Taxpayers money who actually create wealth via private means. Considering we are in deficits and debt a Stadium is literally pouring money into a hole.

[q12]

Originally Posted by the shadow warrior

The Comsopolitan Centre of Altantic Canada is rapidly becoming Moncton LOL. They have the successful track record in all they do. Halifax well may I say 375,000 people didn't show much interest in the Black Eyed peas LOL. Moncton has the Stadium because they don't have the ego to think of hosting a commonwealth games.

Where are you from? You sound like another one of those people promoting the "Culture of Defeat". Maybe you're related to Tim Bousquet.

Your comments have quickly lost credibility.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by the shadow warrior

And again Universities are the Government by another name. Students in Canada barely pay 20 percent of the cost of their educations . If you Grad from University and then go to work for the municipal , provincial or federal governments then you indeed product nothing . You are on the repository for Taxpayers money who actually create wealth via private means.

What a ridiculous view. Did doctors stop producing valuable services when the government started paying them? Are you in a position to personally determine that all research funded by, say, NSERC is without value?

Your 20% comment suggests to me that you have a very superficial view of how and why universities operate. When I've seen the 20% figure it's been calculated by dividing tuition by the overall budget of the universities. That's not at all equivalent to, say, calculating the cost of an average BA and comparing it to tuition.

[Empire]

Originally Posted by the shadow warrior

The Comsopolitan Centre of Altantic Canada is rapidly becoming Moncton LOL. They have the successful track record in all they do. Halifax well may I say 375,000 people didn't show much interest in the Black Eyed peas LOL. Moncton has the Stadium because they don't have the ego to think of hosting a commonwealth games.

It is O.K. for Moncton to build a stadium and that somehow gives them a leg up but you say building a stadium in Halifax is a bad idea?

I guess there are no rural roads in NB that need paving. Take a drive on some and you will see they are in much worse shape that in Nova Scotia.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Empire

I guess there are no rural roads in NB that need paving. Take a drive on some and you will see they are in much worse shape that in Nova Scotia.

No argument there Empire!

I'm guessing that shadow warrior may be acting as a devils advocate here and that his comments may have been provoked by RyeJay's rather intemperate assertion that we should be moving towards a system of forced expropriation and a policy of government mandated depopulation of marginal rural areas of the province in order to preserve government funding of projects in Halifax. I believe he may be taking some umbrage to this.....

[CorbeauNoir]

Hmm, the writing skills of a self-important 12-year-old (here's a free tip - putting LOL at the end of every other sentence isn't going to magically convince everyone you have the slightest idea of what you're talking about) merged with the NIMBYism of a cantankerous 80-year-old woman. Truly a winning combination.

[q12]

Originally Posted by CorbeauNoir

Hmm, the writing skills of a self-important 12-year-old merged with the NIMBYism of a cantankerous 80-year-old woman. Truly a winning combination.

[Jstaleness]

Originally Posted by CorbeauNoir

Hmm, the writing skills of a self-important 12-year-old (here's a free tip - putting LOL at the end of every other sentence isn't going to magically convince everyone you have the slightest idea of what you're talking about) merged with the NIMBYism of a cantankerous 80-year-old woman. Truly a winning combination.

Bam!

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by the shadow warrior

CorbeauNoir there is no visible long term tenant for a Stadium in the HRM and thus no business case at this time. The sensible first business is with the Fifa Womens Worlds but the 60 million dollar estimate may indeed be way too low. Kansas City recently completed a 20000 seat , all spectators under cover stadium for 200 million dollars. The Renderings presented at the public meetings for the HRM Stadium have two main grandstands with roofs covering the spectators.
Entertaining Fifa even for a womens tournament is a quick way to cost overruns. Chile in 2008 hosted the U 20 womens with four Stadia. Of four existing Stadia Three were completely torn down and rebuild with Roofing covering 100 percent of the spectators . The Fourth had to have extensive renovations to make the existing Roof go from covering 80 percent of the roof to 100 percent.Chile is at least 20 places back from Canada in size of economy.

Considering the Fifa Womens World coordinator Tatjana Haenni recently said in Ottawa that Edmonton's Commonwealth Stadium needed upgrades to host it really looks like a bad idea to entertain hosting Fifa. With Canada being the only country to hold up our hands for this tournament you would think the demands would be reserved from Fifa. Maybe what we have to do is start saying no to carpetbaggers like Fifa and the Commonwealth Games people.

shadow warrior sounds like Paul Taylor who made the comment below on this story - http://www.metronews.ca/halifax/local/article/999779--stadium-a-no-go-for-now-premier. It seems as though shadow warrior is going all out to twist the facts and scare people off. Anyone who wants to do some research can find many 20,000 seat stadiums for under $60 million. The cost of $200 million that you quoted includes an associated amateur soccer complex - it would be more credible to give a cost on the stadium alone (do you have that information?).

The city owns the World Trade and Convention Centre Provincial Crown Corporation 359,000 dollars for the Disaster named the Black Eyed Peas concert? Yeah here is the business case from Mayor Kelly . We will build a stadium with roofs over the main grandstands for 7 games in 2014 and 2015 for a mere 60 million dollars. Again like the Commonwealth Games original estimates are so wrong it is incredible. Kansas City recently built a 20000 seat stadium that meets FIFA specs for 200 million dollars for an MLS team. At least their business case included a tenant for 20 years . The HRm well they think a business is property tax charged to the province for the new convention centre.

[fenwick16]

The Council proceedings are at this link - http://live.haligonia.ca/ . Based on the agenda schedule, it will be a while before they get to the stadium issue. Here is the agenda - http://halifax.ca/council/agendasc/111018rcAgenda.html