Halifax Stadium Discussion

[q12]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

@MaritimeCFLFan

What you said was not a rant and I agree with most everything that you have said.

You have to keep in mind that the Moncton Stadium was not built with the CFL in mind. It was built for the specific purpose of hosting the World Junior Track & Field Championships, and on a tight budget at that. What extra monies were spent, were spent on the track and the infield. The track is a top rated Mondo track similar to what they put in the Birdsnest in Beijing. It recieved rave reviews from the athletes. Unfortunately, the stadium itself has got deficiencies, most notably in terms of the the concourses (there are none), concessions (there are none) and the permanent washrooms (again there are none, except in the west grandstand). We do have a nifty pressbox however (built for the world media) and nice team dressing rooms.

Halifax has a leg up and can correct the deficiencies in the Moncton design if it so wants. Again, the Moncton Stadium is a fine facility (for it's intended purpose), but I presume that anything Halifax builds (even a 10 & 10 as proposed) will have certain amenities that are lacking in Moncton, such as sufficient permanent washrooms, concessions and corporate boxes. Expandability is also a must. I'm sure this will be addressed. It would be ludicrous not to.

The Moncton Stadium is fixable, but it would be expensive and I'm sure that it will not be done unless things with the CFL get really serious. In the meantime, we'll make do with what we have. For one or two games a year, it's not so bad.

Well put Monctonrad, I agree with everything you just said.

[c-way-dude]

Originally Posted by Jstaleness

I thought the same of the comment regarding the 11,000 seats. People must have forgotten how quickly those 11,000 seats sold out!!! They were gone in no time. Had there been 9,000 more available I believe they would have sold out too. Maybe not as fast because I believe part of the reason sold so quickly was because everyone knew there was only 11,000 available. That doesn't matter though, if they sell before game time it's a success.
As far as the "I'm not going if it's in Dartmouth" thing. Well many are saying that now. I guess they are still bitter about the HRM thing. What's funny as people said that about Best Buy too before it opened in Dartmouth Crossing and not Bayers Lake. We'll see those people in the stands I'm sure.

I remember Keith Pelley, who was president of the Argos at that time, saying at a press conference that he figured Halifax could have sold 20k tickets, if they had been available.

[c-way-dude]

A smaller (12-14k) stadium might work if it was built with sunken decks, like Fenwick has suggested many times. That way, the stadium could be expanded with upper decks that could be built not very high above ground level. It could be like building 2 small stadiums, with the final result being a stadium with 25k seats between the goallines.

[q12]

City should kick in $20m for Halifax stadium, report says
http://thechronicleherald.ca/Front/9022391.html
By MICHAEL LIGHTSTONE City Hall Reporter
Fri, Oct 14 - 6:04 PM

Halifax Regional Municipality should spend up to $20 million on a proposed multi-use stadium, a new city staff report says.
It said up to another $40 million could come from other levels of government and potential partners.

The funding formula is to be discussed by regional council Tuesday. Staff are recommending councillors agree to the plan even though council hasn't made a decision on a stadium for the Halifax area.
A city hall steering committee is examining the feasibility of such a venue. Though the committee has yet to provide a cost estimate, staff have been saying the proposed project would cost about $60 million.

"A funding amount of $20 million is a significant commitment from the municipality," said the report, prepared by planning and finance managers and submitted to the mayor and council by senior staff.

"However, a decision to build a stadium is an investment and an asset that will serve our region for 50 years," it said.

A Halifax-area stadium would be built in time for the women's World Cup of soccer in Canada in 2015 and a companion tournament a year earlier.

Council in December 2010 directed municipal staff to identify Halifax as a candidate city to host games.

Several potential sites on both sides of Halifax Harbour would be considered should council give the stadium development the green light. A decision is expected in December.

[spaustin]

I'm probably tilting at windmills here, but I'll say it one more time. The CFL can't be the current basis for our stadium. The sport isn't popular enough in Eastern Canada. It has following and a very devoted one in some circles, but it's a relatively small niche. Football is king out West, but it's not in Eastern Canada. If we got a CFL team with our population of 400,000, we would be the smallest market in the entire league with the exception of Regina (Regina being the fanatical outlier). A sports team lives and dies based on its home crowd. It can be augmented by travellers, but it's the potential fanbase near at hand that matters (i.e. counting all the Maritimes as one is silly).

In the future a CFL team is a good possibility since HRM is growing and it's the corporate heart of the Maritimes, but right now, if we got a club, they would be here and in trouble in short order once the novelty wore off. If we build a stadium (i.e. we identify enough other uses/tenants to make it worth while), it should be built with the idea of being readily expandable. We could basically build one side with permanent seating with all the amenities and then proceed to Phase II in 20-40 years or whenever HRM becomes a major market.

I'll probably get slammed for this and called, again, a "naysayer" or be accused of putting the No in Nova Scotia which is really sad. No where have I said no to a stadium. All I have questioned is some of the overly rosy assumptions that seem to be being made. What is so unreasonable about asking for it to be done right and to be thought out? What's so wrong with asking for a clear idea of who is going to use it? We have limited funds available and I would like to see public expenditures targeted in ways that makes the most of it. The flip side of being opposed to everything is being mindlessly in favour of everything. It's a pretty sorry day in our civic discourse if those are the only two positions that can be tolerated.


EDIT: Story about the finances was posted while I was ranting. $20 million seems like a fairly safe figure.

[q12]

Originally Posted by spaustin

I'm probably tilting at windmills here, but I'll say it one more time. The CFL can't be the current basis for our stadium. The sport isn't popular enough in Eastern Canada. It has following and a very devoted one in some circles, but it's a relatively small niche. Football is king out West, but it's not in Eastern Canada. If we got a CFL team with our population of 400,000, we would be the smallest market in the entire league with the exception of Regina (Regina being the fanatical outlier). A sports team lives and dies based on its home crowd. It can be augmented by travellers, but it's the potential fanbase near at hand that matters (i.e. counting all the Maritimes as one is silly).

In the future a CFL team is a good possibility since HRM is growing and it's the corporate heart of the Maritimes, but right now, if we got a club, they would be here and in trouble in short order once the novelty wore off. If we build a stadium (i.e. we identify enough other uses/tenants to make it worth while), it should be built with the idea of being readily expandable. We could basically build one side with permanent seating with all the amenities and then proceed to Phase II in 20-40 years or whenever HRM becomes a major market.

I'll probably get slammed for this and called, again, a "naysayer" or be accused of putting the No in Nova Scotia which is really sad. No where have I said no to a stadium. What is so unreasonable about asking for it to be done right and to be thought out. The flip side of being opposed to everything is being mindlessly in favour of everything. It's a pretty sorry day in our civic discourse if those are the only two positions that can be tolderated.

This is an opinion, your entitled. That being said there are no facts that support your theory that CFL wouldn't work here. There is no pro sports in Canada east of Montreal. This would be the biggest sports team east of Montreal.

[MaritimeCFLFan]

spaustin

I'm not so sure that the CFL is not popular in Eastern Canada. It's really hard to make a case either for or against right now seeing how there is no CFL franchise east of Montreal. I personally know many "football" fans. Most are NFL fans and some are CFL fans and some are both. Also I know some who like to take in university football as well. I guess my point is that there is a very solid base of "football" fans in the region in general. I honestly beleive if you give us a CFL franchise, a pro team to call our own, that it will be supported big time. This region is not like Toronto, Vancouver or Montreal where there are various pro sports options and the general sports fan base is fragmented amongst different sports and teams. I feel the CFL would be a great fit in our region. CFL players are not making the same type of $ as players in the NFL, NHL, NBA or MLB are making yet they are still good talented athletes (many Canadians at that, some who have played university football in our region) who play hard.

I think the CFL would be supported here in the Maritimes.

Just my opinion.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by q12

City should kick in $20m for Halifax stadium, report says
http://thechronicleherald.ca/Front/9022391.html
By MICHAEL LIGHTSTONE City Hall Reporter
Fri, Oct 14 - 6:04 PM

Halifax Regional Municipality should spend up to $20 million on a proposed multi-use stadium, a new city staff report says.
It said up to another $40 million could come from other levels of government and potential partners.

The funding formula is to be discussed by regional council Tuesday. Staff are recommending councillors agree to the plan even though council hasn't made a decision on a stadium for the Halifax area.
A city hall steering committee is examining the feasibility of such a venue. Though the committee has yet to provide a cost estimate, staff have been saying the proposed project would cost about $60 million.

"A funding amount of $20 million is a significant commitment from the municipality," said the report, prepared by planning and finance managers and submitted to the mayor and council by senior staff.

"However, a decision to build a stadium is an investment and an asset that will serve our region for 50 years," it said.

A Halifax-area stadium would be built in time for the women's World Cup of soccer in Canada in 2015 and a companion tournament a year earlier.

Council in December 2010 directed municipal staff to identify Halifax as a candidate city to host games.

Several potential sites on both sides of Halifax Harbour would be considered should council give the stadium development the green light. A decision is expected in December.

Thanks for posting this story q12 (additional details are given in the HRM agenda - http://www.halifax.ca/council/agendasc/documents/111018ca1115.pdf) .

The funding sounds reasonable. If the HRM commits to $20 million then they will have made a large commitment and will show some confidence in Halifax's long term prospects. Hopefully Premier Dexter and the majority of provincial MLA's will do the same.

If that level of funding can be achieved then I think that based on other recently constructed low-cost stadiums (the expanded Saputo Stadium for example) they should be able to build a basic 20,000 seat stadium (including the land cost, and cheap packed gravel parking lots - like at Ralph Wilson Stadium). The first 10,000 seat portion of the stadium structure will likely cost $25 - $30 million since it will need the changerooms, media room, referee's rooms, field, etc. An addition 10,000 seats could cost as little as $15 million - $20 million. I think that based on the total cost of the expanded Saputo they could build a decent 20,000 permanent seat stadium for $45 - $50 million dollars. If they can get the land cheap and cut costs on the parking they might be able to build a 20,000 seat stadium. However, as mentioned in the halifax.ca agenda there could be other servicing costs.

If only the SMU campus were large enough they could save on land cost. If that funding commitment could be achieved ($60 million dollars) then maybe SMU could be convinced to alter the Tower Centre to permit stands on both sides of the field???

The SMU campus would be a great scenic area. There are thousands of parking spots throughout the peninsula (for example, Hamilton's Ivor Wynne Stadium is in a residential neighbour and there are lots of sparking spots around). One advantage to having parking spots spread out over a larger area is that there are many more routes to handle the dispersed parking spots (on the other hand, getting out of a couple very large parking lots could take 1 - 2 hours based on my experience at Ralph Wilson Stadium outside of Buffalo). After seeing a CFL game at Hamilton's Ivor Wynne Stadium, I have gone back to hoping for an urban stadium - I loved the Ivor Wynne Stadium ambiance.

[someone123]

The question of CFL popularity is irrelevant in the sense that it is just not required to justify a stadium on the scale that the city is looking at.

If they build a basic small stadium with 10,000-20,000 seats then the cost will be justified by the odd event like FIFA, some exhibition games, university games, etc. Halifax already has a football team at SMU and they used to have a successful major football event every year until it went to Moncton because Halifax has no acceptable stadium.

Halifax needs and can use a new stadium right now.

[Waye Mason]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Halifax has a leg up and can correct the deficiencies in the Moncton design if it so wants. Again, the Moncton Stadium is a fine facility (for it's intended purpose), but I presume that anything Halifax builds (even a 10 & 10 as proposed) will have certain amenities that are lacking in Moncton, such as sufficient permanent washrooms, concessions and corporate boxes. Expandability is also a must. I'm sure this will be addressed. It would be ludicrous not to.

This was exactly what the folks on the meeting I went to urged them to do. This makes the most sense.

As for the comment about the CWG pricetag vs this - the CWG sites had a purpose... to host the CWG. This does not. Again, if the CFL is so hot to expand, where are the official statements? Where is the participation in the process?

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Waye Mason

This was exactly what the folks on the meeting I went to urged them to do. This makes the most sense.

As for the comment about the CWG pricetag vs this - the CWG sites had a purpose... to host the CWG. This does not. Again, if the CFL is so hot to expand, where are the official statements? Where is the participation in the process?

The fact is that Halifax needs a stadium and then an owner. Why would the CFL reject Halifax if it has those two things? Halifax was awarded a conditional franchise 30 years ago, they had an owner and location picked out. They were ready to go and planned to finance a $6 million dollar stadium but couldn't even get a loan guarantee from the provincial government. So without a stadium no one in their right mind would take a chance on a Halifax-area CFL team.

Have you heard of the 2015 World Women's Cup? If Halifax builds a stadium it will be a host city Do you know that the 2011 World Women's Cup was broadcast to 200 countries and received regular coverage on the US and Canadian networks? So Halifax will be involved in an event that will receive far more press than the Commonwealth Games at about 1/50th the cost. It sounds like a great deal to me.

As you know, getting all the funding in place is not a sure thing. If the HRM approves the funding, they will still have to get Premier Dexter to provide funding. Without Premier Dexter, MP Peter MacKay has said that the federal government won't be involved either. The good news for Halifax sports fans is that the shipbuilding contract will be announced the day before this is presented to HRM Council. If either contract is awarded to Halifax then maybe even Premier Dexter will be happy enough to fund a small part of the stadium cost.

[Empire]

Originally Posted by Waye Mason

This was exactly what the folks on the meeting I went to urged them to do. This makes the most sense.

As for the comment about the CWG pricetag vs this - the CWG sites had a purpose... to host the CWG. This does not. Again, if the CFL is so hot to expand, where are the official statements? Where is the participation in the process?

The Halifax Port Authority has invested $100 million in the south end container terminal to be able to capture future post-panamex container buisness. I wonder why they would do that without official statements from shipping lines stating that they will use the facility?

Port Authority has vision and doesn't need official statements from shipping lines to proceed with investments:
http://www.portofhalifax.ca/english/port-facilities/infrastructure/index.html

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Waye Mason

As for the comment about the CWG pricetag vs this - the CWG sites had a purpose... to host the CWG. This does not.

I think you need to attend more of those information sessions.

[ScovaNotian]

Originally Posted by Empire

The Halifax Port Authority has invested $100 million in the south end container terminal to be able to capture future post-panamex container buisness. I wonder why they would do that without official statements from shipping lines stating that they will use the facility?

With the same argument you can suggest building a space port without firm commitments from aliens that they will visit.

[Empire]

Originally Posted by ScovaNotian

With the same argument you can suggest building a space port without firm commitments from aliens that they will visit.

I suppose YOU could, but keep in mind there is no such thing as aliens.......or is there?

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by Empire

I suppose YOU could, but keep in mind there is no such thing as aliens.......or is there?

Humans, to each other, are alien enough...or so it would appear.

An Atlantic Stadium comparison with The Halifax Port Authority/Atlantic Gateway is now being thrown about. HRM is apparently not waiting for absolute investors to act, as it is making its own (further) investment in this shipping industry.

The excessive shipping demands being created through increased output from Germany, China, and India are creating a context that follows quite a different economic formula...
The CFL's demand Vs. all that cheap Wal-Mart plastic. Tough call.

So--outside of comparison of an entirely different, established industry in what is The Halifax Port Authority (I wonder if their staff has a football team?)--even without the CFL being present during these talks to kick HRM in the bum, I'm not happy with the minimalist direction this stadium is taking.

HRM needs to be bolder.

We need to be at least proposing CFL minimal standards. If this kind of deal is out of the picture well then we can crop the stadium down to size; but come on, we are essentially giving up before we've even started.

As has been previously mentioned, even the economics of a smaller stadium is shown to work out, so we need to get a shovel into the ground.

[fenwick16]

The following is from the phase 1 report, section 10.1 - http://halifax.ca/stadium/documents/Phase1-StadiumAnalysisStaffReport_Council.pdf

10.1 BASELINE ASSUMPTIONS
The assessment of operating revenues and expenses is predicated on the absence of a professional sporting franchise. Furthermore, it assumes the development of a stadium of 10,000 + permanent seats. The basis for 10,000 permanent seats relies on our review of the market as well as the opportunities for achieving cost effective expansion of the facility in the future.

The relationship between the permanent seat count and the operating revenues and expenses is not proportional. The incremental addition of permanent seats can be achieved at relatively modest prices and does not equate to significant increase in operating costs. The scale of addition where this is likely to be the case is likely limited to 3,000 to 4,000 seats. Hence, it is a viable option to construct a higher permanent seat count (in the order of 13,000 to 14,000 seats). Whilst incurring a higher initial capital cost, this would not translate into an unduly significant increases in operating costs, as the majority of operating costs are fixed and those which are variable (such as event related costs) are a function of attendance rather than the actual seat count of the facility itself. It is possible that with the additional incremental capital cost to achieve greater than 10,000 permanent seats, the facility could either attract additional events or solidify its competitive position in Atlantic Canada. In addition, the higher permanent seat count translates into a lower temporary seat cost for those events which are successfully attracted to the facility and which require temporary seats to achieve the desired additional capacity.

Factors to consider regarding additional permanent seats beyond the recommended complement of 10,000 include the following:
 The availability of capital funding to pay for the incremental addition and whether all or a portion of those costs would be a burden on the municipal tax base;
 The depreciation of the additional capital asset over time;
 Whether the additional seats would represent permanent or throw away items in the event of a major facility expansion to house a professional sporting franchise; and
 In the interim, public attitude and tolerance towards a stadium with seating capacity which is likely only to be required on a highly infrequent basis.

I hope that the stadium will be built within the budget; I just hope that number of permanent seats will be maximized within the total $60 million dollar budget. There is an associated cost for temporary seats - so why not maximize the number of permanent seats, especially between the goal-lines. However, there is a concern of appearing to build a stadium for a future professional sports team as mentioned in the table on page 73 of the report - "Government will not currently fund overt plans for stadiums specific to professional teams and wider events and community based model of stadium operation does not warrant this scale.". If the federal government is taking this position then I think that it is a serious mistake in relation to the CFL - this is a national sports league that deserves support from the federal government. Helping to unite the country should be one of their top priorities and having a national sports league is one small way of doing it.

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by RyeJay

HRM needs to be bolder.

We need to be at least proposing CFL minimal standards. If this kind of deal is out of the picture well then we can crop the stadium down to size; but come on, we are essentially giving up before we've even started.

I'm going to ask the dumbest question (I've not yet gone for my walk to get coffee, so sorry about this) but what are the minimum standards for CFL?

I remember someone saying for Greycup it was around 45,000 but I can't think for the life of me where to find this information?

[CorbeauNoir]

Originally Posted by Waye Mason

Again, if the CFL is so hot to expand, where are the official statements? Where is the participation in the process?

I guess someone should go back in time and tell TNSE that building the MTS Centre when virtually nobody in the NHL was breathing a whisper about Winnipeg was a huge waste of time, then. There's something to be said for approaching projects with - christ forbid - some kind of initiative or ambition (then again, this IS Halifax...).

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

I'm going to ask the dumbest question (I've not yet gone for my walk to get coffee, so sorry about this) but what are the minimum standards for CFL?

I remember someone saying for Greycup it was around 45,000 but I can't think for the life of me where to find this information?

Most people consider 25,000 to be the minimum for regular season games and this is the number mentioned in the Sierra report (page 73 of the report) - http://halifax.ca/stadium/documents/Phase1-StadiumAnalysisStaffReport_Council.pdf . I think this is a reasonable number since the new Ivor Wynne Stadium will be 22,500 (but easily expandable), Montreal's Percival Molson Stadium was recently expanded to 25,000, and the proposal for the Ottawa Lansdowne Stadium was for about 25,000.

The 45,000 capacity is intended to be the number required to host a Grey Cup game, but that number can included temporary seats. However, based on what I have read, the capacity for the new Winnipeg Stadium will be a maximum of 40,000 with temporary seats and they will be host a Grey Cup.