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  #3561  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2011, 10:21 PM
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DOCUMENTS: SASKATCHEWAN LOOKED FOR FEDERAL STADIUM FUNDS

THE CANADIAN PRESS
9/20/2011 3:48:15 PM
http://www.tsn.ca/cfl/story/?id=376270

OTTAWA -- Saskatchewan tried to do an end-run around rules that would prevent the province from tapping into a pot of more than $1 billion to build a new CFL stadium in Regina, new documents indicate.

And a senior official at the Crown corporation that manages the fund alluded to a possible change in the rules for funding pro sports venues with federal cash.

The Conservatives designed the $1.2-billion P3 Canada Fund to help pay for infrastructure projects in partnership with other governments and the private sector. Money from the fund cannot be spent on facilities "primarily" used for pro sports.

Not a problem, said Saskatchewan.

The province said its Canadian Football League team would only use the venue 10 days a year. The rest of the time, the $400-million stadium would host university and high school football games, concerts, other sporting events and a few conferences.

"The Saskatchewan multi-purpose entertainment facility is not primarily a professional sports facility," says an August 2010 presentation to fund manager P3 Canada.

But it is clear there could be no stadium without the Roughriders.

The province prepared two financial statements: a conservative estimate and a rosier one. The team would account for most of the facility's annual revenue under both scenarios.

The Canadian Press obtained these and other documents under the Access to Information Act.

The conservative estimate has 31 events at the stadium, which would bring in close to $4.5 million in revenue. Of that, the 10 CFL games would bring in about $3.5 million, or 79 per cent of the facility's revenue.

The rosier estimate projects 71 stadium events and revenues of almost $4.9 million. The Roughriders would account for 72 per cent of that money.

The estimates come from a feasibility study on building a domed, all-weather stadium. The federal government helped pay for the $1-million report, and Conservative MPs Gerry Ritz and Andrew Scheer sat on an advisory committee that directed work on the study.

"The project is clearly economically feasible and will generate related and recurrent benefits throughout the province of Saskatchewan," the study says.

"The benefits are overwhelmingly positive."

But time on the clock ran out, and Saskatchewan spiked the stadium project this spring. The city of Regina is now looking at how it could build a stadium.

Regina Mayor Pat Fiacco disputed any suggestion the province tried to skirt the rules when it applied for federal cash for a stadium.

He said it was the federal government that told the province to apply to the fund.

"That advice came directly from the Government of Canada," said Fiacco.

The P3 Canada Fund is considered a potential source of federal money for sports facilities such as the Regina stadium and a politically charged proposal for a hockey arena in Quebec City.

The arena-funding debate has been a political minefield for the Conservative government of Prime Minister Stephen Harper, pitting the provinces -- and even some members of the Tory caucus -- against each other.

Some Conservatives fretted about alienating the party's western base by helping fund a new Quebec City arena as part of a bid bring back the city's beloved National Hockey League franchise, the Nordiques.

Harper has since made it clear that his government is not in the pro sports business.

"We will not spend taxpayers' money on a professional sports arena or stadium in Quebec City," Harper said in March, just weeks before winning a majority government in the spring election.

"And we will not participate in such projects in Regina, Halifax, Edmonton, or my hometown Calgary."

But newly released documents suggest that as recently as May, bureaucrats were still trying to figure out if possible rule changes would allow Ottawa to fund sports venues such as the one in Saskatchewan.

"We are trying to determine which projects may be impacted by a potential change in (government) policy that may alter our (terms and conditions) restricting stadium-spectator facilities that have an anchor tenant that may own a team and run it as a commercial venture," senior P3 Canada official Rob Mackay wrote in a May 10 email to colleagues.

Mackay does not elaborate on the "potential change" he referred to. He was not available for an interview.

But Saskatchewan Tory MP Scheer, who now is Speaker of the House of Commons, also mentioned a policy change in March.

"We did caution them that as the funding criteria prohibited funding for professional sports facilities, that they would have to structure the project in a way that was not the focus," Scheer told The Canadian Press.

"We told them that it was a potential program that might be available, but it wasn't a perfect fit and they would have to be aware that if they did make an application through it, it would likely still require a policy change. And that's why we are where we're at today."

P3 Canada said it could not comment on project applications to the fund.

"However, the terms and conditions of the P3 Canada Fund have not changed and remain clear that 'facilities used primarily by professional athletes' are ineligible for funding from our program," spokeswoman Lisa Mitchell said in an email.

She did not respond to follow-up questions.
     
     
  #3562  
Old Posted Sep 25, 2011, 4:54 AM
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I went to the Toronto Argonauts versus Winnipeg Bluebombers CFL game tonight. It was a fairly good game but there were only about 19,000 spectators. The Rogers Centre is a better baseball venue than football venue. For football, many of the seats have obstructed views.

I walked around and took several pictures. I posted a few pictures below.


The sideline view was good (as would be expected).


The endzone seats weren't obstructed but it isn't a good vantage point to watch the action from (when the action is down the field it is difficult to follow the football because of the long Canadian football field and deep endzone dimensions).


These corner seats gave a good perspective on the action but the endzone was partially obstructed.


Even sideline seats near the end-zones were good:


In the case of a Halifax stadium versus the Rogers Centre, "less is more". A simpler stadium with most of the seats along the sidelines (the full distance of 450 feet should give good site-lines) and one with open air concourses would be more enjoyable. As has been mentioned before, the Akron InfoCision Stadium might be a good design for Halifax - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/InfoCision_Stadium_%E2%80%93_Summa_Field ). Just simplify the media tower and add a partial roof over some of the seats.
     
     
  #3563  
Old Posted Sep 25, 2011, 10:13 AM
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Thanks for the photos fenwick.

This shows why a smaller venue specific stadium creates a far better atmosphere. However Moncton's stadium also has poor views due to the track, and most of the seats are in the endzone.

Molson stadium, McMahon stadium, Empire field and the new bombers stadium are probably some of the better CFL stadiums for atmosphere and views.
     
     
  #3564  
Old Posted Sep 25, 2011, 11:24 AM
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Thanks for the photos fenwick.

This shows why a smaller venue specific stadium creates a far better atmosphere. However Moncton's stadium also has poor views due to the track, and most of the seats are in the endzone.

Molson stadium, McMahon stadium, Empire field and the new bombers stadium are probably some of the better CFL stadiums for atmosphere and views.
Yes, I think McMahon Stadium and Montreal's Molson Stadium would provide great site-lines. The new Blue Bombers Stadium should be good also - there is a new virtual 3D seating chart that shows virtual seating views at this link - http://bluebombers.io-media.com/. The temporary Empire stadium would be much better than the Rogers Centre for football but it seems to have a fairly high number of endzone seats. I think that few or no endzone seats is best for Canadian footbal and will also work well for soccer. Leaving the endzones open also allows for temporary expansion for special events.

Endzone seating would be better from a high vantage point - for example, if the first row of seats was elevated high above the field (starting at 10 feet or more) and was at a steep incline then it would provide decent viewing. However, anywhere along the sidelines and corners seems to provide the best perspective to follow the action.

I think that McMahon is a great layout for Canadian football. (source worldstadiums - http://www.worldstadiums.com/stadium_pictures/north_america/canada/alberta/calgary_mcmahon.shtml )


and also Edmonton's Commonwealth Stadium is a great layout

Last edited by fenwick16; Sep 26, 2011 at 12:11 PM.
     
     
  #3565  
Old Posted Sep 25, 2011, 3:28 PM
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Fenwick- Thanks for posting the pictures. 19,000 looks pretty empty in a stadium that size. As for endzone seats, many teams like them because of what they bring to the team's bottom line, even though they may not have the best views of the game. 1) they are relatively inexpensive to install since they do not require the structural support of the much larger sideline seats, 2)they bring in the fan that cannot afford the $79 sideline seat (most endzone tickets are $22 or less except BC which charges $35) 3)those extra fans help pad the attendance numbers and 4) you get a couple of thousand extra fans to buy beer/food/merchandise.... that you might not have sold.

Too bad the CFL does not use endzone seats to build "Supporters" groups like they do in the MLS. Supporters groups (like the Timbers Army in Portland or the Sons of Ben in Philadelphia) often pack in thousands of the loudest, most enthusiastic fans in the stadium and they really add to the atmosphere of the game.
     
     
  #3566  
Old Posted Sep 25, 2011, 4:49 PM
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Thanks for the pictures, Fenwick!
     
     
  #3567  
Old Posted Sep 25, 2011, 5:33 PM
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I had the (mis?)fortune of watching that bizzare game on TV and I'd be shocked if there were 19000 people in actual attendance. In any case, absolutely SkyDome is a monstrosity for football and hopefully if and when Halifax builds a stadium they build something more fan friendly.

SkyDome is easily the worse football stadium in Canada and likely in all North America.
     
     
  #3568  
Old Posted Sep 26, 2011, 4:11 AM
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This has been my football weekend. Yesterday it was the Toronto Rogers Centre and today I travelled to Buffalo (not that far away, but there was a long line-up at US Customs). I saw the Buffalo Bills and New England Patriots at Ralph Wilson Stadium.

I took a lot of pictures and posted a few below.

The 73,000 seat Ralph Wilson Stadium was built specifically for football in 1973 for $23 million dollars (as a comparison, the Halifax Metro Centre was built in 1978 for about $15 million dollars). It wasn't an expensive stadium by today's standards, but I think it is a great place to see a football game.

From street level, it doesn't look overly impressive. That is because much of it is built below street level (it has a sunken lower bowl).


I sat in the 201 section which is a few rows below the large scoreboard. Even though it was in an endzone section, I still had a good view of the field. The NFL field dimensions are significantly smaller than the CFL dimensions so I wasn't too far from the action. Comparatively, on a viewing perspective, I think NFL stadium endzone seats are a better value than CFL endzone seats. However, CFL endzone seats can provide a decent view also, if they are high above the field to give a decent viewing perspective (this is based on my walk-around at the Argos game in the Rogers Centre).


The lower bowl, which has 39 rows, is sunken so people enter from ground level and walk down to their seats. The sunken bowl design simplifies the design and reduces the climb to the upper two levels.


Once people enter the stadium through the gates then they can mingle in the open air within the security fence. It is an open concept such as the Toronto BMO Field. I think Halifax should go with such a open air concept instead of having people enclosed within a stadium on a beautiful weather day. The image below was taken at half-time intermission.


Most of the washrooms and concessions for the lowest sunken bowl are outside concourses that are sheltered by the overhang of the highest seating tier.


The concourses and washrooms for the highest tier are enclosed within the third tier stands (a bit cramped at half-time).


The best part was the score - 34-31 for the Buffalo Bills. They were down 21-0 and came all the way back to win. I couldn't ask for any more - a great game, in a great stadium, on a great weather day.


This football season, I would like to also get to Ivor Wynne Stadium, Montreal's Percival Molson Stadium and maybe even Cleveland, Detroit, and Akron's InfoCision Stadium (the latter one just to see the Akron stadium and see a US college game).

Last edited by fenwick16; Sep 26, 2011 at 4:24 AM.
     
     
  #3569  
Old Posted Sep 26, 2011, 4:01 PM
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http://halifax.openfile.ca/blog/curator-blog/explainer/2011/when-are-we-getting-stadium


Quote:
Halifax is one step closer to a getting a stadium. A quick, though possibly rude, decision by HRM’s top bureaucrat, CAO Richard Butts, may mean we’re only months away from seeing a mock-up. Butts awarded the contract for picking a possible site and beginning to design a Halifax stadium to local firm Fowler, Bauld & Mitchell (the firm behind the new Halifax Central Library). Their deadline to hand in a report: December.

Though many details of this possible sports complex are still up in the air, Haligonians have bandied around the idea of a stadium for decades. Because this iteration is tied to the 2015 Women’s World Cup, and we’re still smarting from our Commonwealth Games bid fiasco, we’ve learned the importance of asking the right questions.
...

I wrote this article for OpenFile Halifax, a new local news source, and I would love to get some comments from the people on this forum about some of the info I gathered. If I made any errors or missed important questions, please comment on the page?

It'd be much appreciated:

http://halifax.openfile.ca/blog/curator-blog/explainer/2011/when-are-we-getting-stadium
     
     
  #3570  
Old Posted Sep 26, 2011, 9:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bethanyhorne View Post
http://halifax.openfile.ca/blog/curator-blog/explainer/2011/when-are-we-getting-stadium



...

I wrote this article for OpenFile Halifax, a new local news source, and I would love to get some comments from the people on this forum about some of the info I gathered. If I made any errors or missed important questions, please comment on the page?

It'd be much appreciated:

http://halifax.openfile.ca/blog/curator-blog/explainer/2011/when-are-we-getting-stadium
I think it sounds like a good, unbiased report. I like the OpenFile concept.

Although I did the conceptual 3D stadium model, which I animated and uploaded to YouTube, the other 3D model that I pasted at the Dartmouth Crossings location was a 3D model of Stanford Stadium that I downloaded from the Google 3D Warehouse which was drawn by username NICK who is unknown to me. It is permissible for me to download the Stanford Stadium by NICK but I can't take credit for it.

One other minor note, we are not all anonymous; my real name is Kevin Langille and a few others on this forum have identified themselves.
     
     
  #3571  
Old Posted Sep 27, 2011, 1:17 AM
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I hate to say it, but Ralph Wilson Stadium really looks like a dump. Those cramped concourses and open-air, unsheltered areas really do not seem up to current NFL standards.
     
     
  #3572  
Old Posted Sep 27, 2011, 2:47 AM
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I hate to say it, but Ralph Wilson Stadium really looks like a dump. Those cramped concourses and open-air, unsheltered areas really do not seem up to current NFL standards.
It is a great place to watch a football game. I would rather go to the Ralph Wilson Stadium or BMO Field than the enclosed confines of the Rogers Centre.

I have been in the Lucas Oil Stadium in Indianapolis, which is not lacking in any department, but it isn't worth 5-6 times as much as Ralph Wilson Stadium. In fact, I like being in a stadium where I can step outside (from outside to outside) and wander around in the fresh air. There is a great sense of freedom when in a stadium such as Ralph Wilson Stadium. Also the focus is on the football game instead of on the stadium. The actual seating bowl of Ralph Wilson Stadium is more aesthetically pleasing than the seating area of the Lucas Oil Stadium. However, the Lucas Oil Stadium is an amazing structure, but it has a more sterile environment than Ralph Wilson Stadium. When people attend a football game do they want to be in a hospital-type of environment or one that feels like a sports stadium?

Last edited by fenwick16; Sep 27, 2011 at 4:40 PM. Reason: typo's
     
     
  #3573  
Old Posted Sep 27, 2011, 2:56 AM
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Originally Posted by MonctonRad View Post
This is the first time that I have seen this image Fenwick, this is an excellent representation of what a stadium at the abandoned quarry at Dartmouth Crossing would look like!

The siting is perfect to my mind. It is in easy waliking distance to neighbouring restaurants in DC (and this would be facilitated by a walking bridge across the street to the back end of the Empire Cinemas). There is lots of parking in the neighbouring area, but this raises a question - wouldn't the businesses in DC object to poachers parking on game day? I woukd think that the stadium would require it's own parking.

As q12 states, this would be a nice protected site which would be less cold and less windy than Shannon Park. Access is relatively easy, either off the 118 or through Burnside. Access would also be easy for people driving from the north or from the Annapolis Valley. This would include the vast majority of non-Haligonians who would be using the facility.

This section of Dartmouth is poised to become one of the major growth centres for metro Halifax. It would make sense to locate the new stadium in a place such as this.

DC has my vote.

BTW - the long range forecast for Touchdown Atlantic in Moncton is for a sunny weekend. You're all invited to the party. My son is playing one of the high school games which will be part of the weekend festivities. They're playing their arch foe Moncton High. He's pretty pumped already. His team (BMHS Highlanders) defeated Harrison Trimble on Friday in front of about 1,500 spectators at Rocky Stone Field in Moncton. We also went down to Sackville to the Mt. A - Bishop's game yesterday as well and there was about 2,000 people at that game too.

There's nothing like football on a glorious warm fall weekend! [/QUOTE]

I too have been looking over this location in DC it certainly has some appeal...the current hole almost looks like a natural amphitheatre.
I think the stadium will need to have weather cover for our rainy springs. I for one really dont give a hoot...but my loving companion would dearly treasure the rain protection....you simply would not want be in HRM after a rain soaked game and her in the stands.
     
     
  #3574  
Old Posted Sep 27, 2011, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bethanyhorne View Post
http://halifax.openfile.ca/blog/curator-blog/explainer/2011/when-are-we-getting-stadium



...

I wrote this article for OpenFile Halifax, a new local news source, and I would love to get some comments from the people on this forum about some of the info I gathered. If I made any errors or missed important questions, please comment on the page?

It'd be much appreciated:

http://halifax.openfile.ca/blog/curator-blog/explainer/2011/when-are-we-getting-stadium
It's great to see a pragmatic article about the stadium. One item you may want to check on is the minimum requirement. Most information suggests that 25,000 seats is the minimum for a CFL franchise not 20,000.


http://cfldb.ca/2011/08/depth-moncton-market-unclear/

Depth of Moncton Market Unclear
Published on August 3, 2011 8:15 PM by dbo.

"A Stadium
The first requirement is a suitable stadium, one that seats a minimum of 25,000 and has the modern amenities required for professional football. The situation in this regard hasn’t changed."
========================================================

OpenFile
How big is it supposed to be?
It would need to be able to accommodate 20,000 seats minimum, according to FIFA rules for Women’s World Cup venues. Some of those could be temporary seating, but that’s not ideal. In physical terms, 30,000 to 40,000 square metres is what we’re talking.
[Not that it matters, but a 20,000 seat-venue is also the minimum to attract an Atlantic-region CFL franchise, though Moncton may have beat us to that punch.]
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Last edited by Empire; Sep 27, 2011 at 1:40 PM.
     
     
  #3575  
Old Posted Sep 27, 2011, 6:13 PM
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http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scoti...b-cfl-moncton-halifax-franchise-235.html

I was talking to a Moncton reporter and the story they are being told is that team up is "Moncton gets all the games except one in Halifax."

I laughed. Out. Loud.
     
     
  #3576  
Old Posted Sep 27, 2011, 6:46 PM
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Yes, I can imagine how such a situation would be insulting to Halifax.

In the reverse situation though, I would imagine that Haligonians would think that Moncton should be grateful if we were thrown a single game every year.

When time comes for a final decision, this will be a messy situation and lots of people will be unhappy. Hopefully the debate won't be too rancorous.
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  #3577  
Old Posted Sep 27, 2011, 6:56 PM
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Originally Posted by MonctonRad View Post


Yes, I can imagine how such a situation would be insulting to Halifax.

In the reverse situation though, I would imagine that Haligonians would think that Moncton should be grateful if we were thrown a single game every year.

When time comes for a final decision, this will be a messy situation and lots of people will be unhappy. Hopefully the debate won't be too rancorous.
I was thinking more like "we are not about to build a 25K seat stadium for one game a year". If we knew for sure that was all we would get, and the franchise was going to be in Moncton, then I think that would put pressure on the process and govt to pick the smaller options on the table. If we were going to have 9 games a year, probably one of the larger options might become viable.
     
     
  #3578  
Old Posted Sep 27, 2011, 7:11 PM
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Yes, that is an issue with "sharing" a franchise. That means building CFL grade stadiums in both cities.

It would be hard to make a business case for that.
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  #3579  
Old Posted Sep 27, 2011, 7:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Waye Mason View Post
I was thinking more like "we are not about to build a 25K seat stadium for one game a year".
Yep. A lot of people are not thinking about this very clearly.

Moncton's location is a much smaller advantage than Halifax's larger size. The CFL would prefer to locate in Halifax. Up until a couple of years ago Moncton wasn't even on the radar.

Right now Moncton's primary strong suit is that it has a stadium. It's not CFL-ready though, so it's not much of an advantage. In Moncton terms, funding improvements to a CFL level is probably equivalent to Halifax funding a CFL-ready stadium from scratch, so even in terms of stadium Moncton might not be ahead.

I am not sure how this will play out exactly but if Halifax builds a stadium it will probably be superior to the Moncton stadium. In other words, there will be one city with 3x the population of the other and a superior stadium. You have to have had a lot of Moncton kool aid to think that will result in Moncton getting 90% of games if a CFL team sets up in the Maritimes.

If Halifax builds an inadequate stadium or no stadium and Moncton upgrades its almost brand new stadium then the story might be different. I don't think that's a very likely scenario, however.
     
     
  #3580  
Old Posted Sep 27, 2011, 7:42 PM
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It seems the people running the CFL are pretty ignorant when it comes to the Maritimes, and have no idea the large population difference there is between Halifax and Moncton. Moncton's metro population is something around 120,000, Halifax's just surpassed 400,000. How would it make any sense at all, if Halifax had a stadium equal too, or better than Moncton's, to only host one game a season in Halifax with the rest in Moncton? I'm sorry but the ignorance here is just plain dumb.
     
     
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