Halifax Stadium Discussion

[fenwick16]

I went to a Toronto FC soccer game today (Saturday afternoon) at BMO Field and I really enjoyed the stadium ambiance. It is certainly different than a totally enclosed stadium such as the Rogers Centre. Although the Rogers Centre is very impressive, I can see why the simpler stadiums such as BMO Field for soccer, and Camden Yards (and other retro ball parks) for baseball are popular. I haven't been to Montreal's Molson Stadium to see the CFL Alouettes but I think that it would have a similar open-air feel.

I sat in the South goal-end stands (section 114). I spent quite a bit of time walking around the stadium. All the stands are very well equiped as far as washrooms and concessions are concerned. Most of the concession food stands are very simple and many are temporary (either small canopied tables or carts on wheels). The simple concession stands are very fitting and provide a county-fair type of ambiance. I only remember seeing 3 large permanent concession stands (the rest were portable).

Altough the east stands would be considered to be B-style seating in the Sierra report, it was far more impressive than I imagined. The east stands are opposite the larger West grandstand (here is an image of the east stands from a Wikipedia article - http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/89/East-stand-supporters-section-bmo-field.jpg). The only thing that I dislike about the BMO Field stadium are the aluminum risers which don't seem very durable (I think steel frame and concrete risers would be much better). Also, I think for a Halifax-area stadium some roof cover over the seats will be required.

I took several pictures. I posted them below. Although economical in design, the BMO Field is fully equiped with sufficient washrooms, concessions, club seats, picnic areas, etc. It provides a great stadium experience and is usually sold out for soccer games. So I think Halifax will be able to build a substantial stadium for a price of $60 million dollars. Halifax may not be able to build 20,000 - 25,000 seats for that price (including land and parking) but it should be possible to build a 15,000 - 20,000 permanent seat stadium for that price.

This is a picture that I took outside the east stands: (the exterior is quite impressive, in my opinion).


This is under the east stands:


This is the south side concouse taken from the west grandstand stairs. The south concourse is the only one that is not covered (although all concourses are open-air, the other sides are covered by seating stands)


This is under the north stands (below). I think this would be a good design for a 2nd tier of a Halifax-area stadium above a sunken lower bowl. I like this design because people can go to the concession areas and still look out onto the playing field (it would also provide lots of wheelchair accessible seating areas). Although I think the steel framing would be good for a 2nd tier in a Halifax-area stadium, I think the risers should be concrete instead of aluminum (the aluminum risers in the BMO Field didn't look very durable). I don't think that concrete risers would add much to the cost of a stadium but it would make it seem much more solid/permanent.



After seeing the BMO Field I feel very encouraged that the Halifax-area can build a stadium and achieve an excellent stadium ambiance at a relatively low cost.

[halifaxboyns]

Let me start by saying Fenwick - great graphic and pics. I've been meaning to get to the BMO park when I'm in Toronto, never seem to get there.

The BMO field is a good example of an open concept field as a good starter point. I've been thinking more and more that my support of shannon was based upon a much bigger stadium after evolving a team in HRM. I have to start thinking about a starter facililty and then see the evolution of the city and the team.

My only concern with the Dartmouth Crossing location is this: Isn't that the location of the residential component for DC? That was the whole point of DC as it was supposed to be a mixed use 'big box' style development (not with residential above the big box, but as a separate part)? I guess my concern is that if it was comprehensively approved through a DA to have a residential component, I would be slightly concerned that if there was an expectation of a certain number of units to be on the residential site if the stadium is built on a portion that could impact it. But it could force a higher density of development too, as a compensation. I guess we'll have to see...

I find Councillor Uteck's comment about Shannon rather interesting though...$33 million in remediation!? I realize that with military sites there is often some contamination issues, but what could possibly be on there?

[someone123]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

I find Councillor Uteck's comment about Shannon rather interesting though...$33 million in remediation!? I realize that with military sites there is often some contamination issues, but what could possibly be on there?

Sue Uteck is not exactly an unbiased observer when it comes to the stadium issue.

Sadly I think there is a tendency to undervalue the importance of well-located sites and the importance of properly using land near the centre of the city. There's a lot of value to reusing a brownfield site like Shannon Park. The fact that it's harder to quantify than a price tag doesn't mean it's not there.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

My only concern with the Dartmouth Crossing location is this: Isn't that the location of the residential component for DC? That was the whole point of DC as it was supposed to be a mixed use 'big box' style development (not with residential above the big box, but as a separate part)? I guess my concern is that if it was comprehensively approved through a DA to have a residential component, I would be slightly concerned that if there was an expectation of a certain number of units to be on the residential site if the stadium is built on a portion that could impact it. But it could force a higher density of development too, as a compensation. I guess we'll have to see...

I find Councillor Uteck's comment about Shannon rather interesting though...$33 million in remediation!? I realize that with military sites there is often some contamination issues, but what could possibly be on there?

The CBC article also mentions an airport location - that would be a big mistake.

The Dartmouth Crossings quarry was one that was offered by the owners of Dartmouth Crossings in response to the municipality's RFP for stadium land from private developers (a picture is shown in the CBC article - http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/story/2011/09/16/ns-stadium-sites.html) . There is a picture of the Dartmouth Crossings residential area in this following document - http://www.halifax.ca/commcoun/hecc/documents/090402hecc104.pdf). Interestingly, Dartmouth Crossings did not include this area in their residential rezoning application, which I read was approved a couple of years ago. The offered quarry site is adjacent to the resident land - I am not sure if that will result in noise issues for future residential owners?

There are some advantages to the Dartmouth Crossings location but one disadvantage will be poor public transportation connections. I don't think that there is a perfect site in the HRM.

I am starting to like the Shannon Park site because of its fairly Central location and it is close to a Metro bus terminal - Highfield Terminal. It is also a short shuttle trip from the MacDonald Bridge terminal. I was surprised by Councillor Uteck's remark about it costing $33 million for rehab work (however part of the demolition has already been tendered - http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/story/2011/07/23/ns-shannon-park-buildings.html). Does anyone know if a bid was accepted? Also, the fact that Defence Minister Peter MacKay supports a stadium at the Shannon Park location is a plus.

[Keith P.]

I stand by my contention that Shannon would not be a good location.

The BMO pics are interesting, but I question whether open-air concourses like that are acceptable. They would work about 8 months of the year but the rest of the time they could be unworkable. Of course, if the stadium isn't used from December to March then it isn't an issue.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

I stand by my contention that Shannon would not be a good location.

The BMO pics are interesting, but I question whether open-air concourses like that are acceptable. They would work about 8 months of the year but the rest of the time they could be unworkable. Of course, if the stadium isn't used from December to March then it isn't an issue.

Most stadia would not be used in the winter, so it indeed would not be an issue.

I'm glad to see sanity returning to this thread. A good quality stadium can be built for a reasonable price. If properly designed, it should be upgradable when necessary.

I share KeithP's reservations about Shannon Park. I think it is relatively inaccessible and could be cold and windy (which is a consideration for an outdoor facility). If a stadium cannot be built on the peninsula, I would prefer the Dartmouth Crossing location. A stadium cannot be out of the way! Whoever proposed the airport as a location needs to be given a good shake!

The photos of BMO Field are interesting Fenwick, they provide me with some ideas about how Moncton Stadium might be upgraded in the future.....

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Most stadia would not be used in the winter, so it indeed would not be an issue.

I'm glad to see sanity returning to this thread. A good quality stadium can be built for a reasonable price. If properly designed, it should be upgradable when necessary.

I share KeithP's reservations about Shannon Park. I think it is relatively inaccessible and could be cold and windy (which is a consideration for an outdoor facility). If a stadium cannot be built on the peninsula, I would prefer the Dartmouth Crossing location. A stadium cannot be out of the way! Whoever proposed the airport as a location needs to be given a good shake!

The photos of BMO Field are interesting Fenwick, they provide me with some ideas about how Moncton Stadium might be upgraded in the future.....

It is so difficult to find images of most stadium concourses.

I am not sure how windy Shannon Park is? If it is cold and windy then a stadium at Shannon Park won't be pleasant (I think of Candlestick Park in San Francisco which was considered to always be cold and windy).

I think that the BMO East Stand provides is a great, simple stadium concourse when the weather is decent (above 5°C, with little wind) http://img828.imageshack.us/img828/857/outsidetheeaststandkoda.jpg - (source: my image). I think this design is close to being ideal for most of the year (8 months). During the winter months, most outdoor stadiums in Canada are seldom used for spectator events.

The BMO Field South Concourse would not be good on rainy days - http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/7960/undersouthstand5.jpg (my image).

I like the way that the Saputo Stadium expansion has been designed. There is lots of circulation space under the stands and it appears as though the washrooms/concessions are around the exterior, thus forming the perimeter wall of the stadium. There are illustrative images in the following article - http://www.thedenimkit.com/2011/02/21/montreal-set-for-major-league-impact/. I re-posted one of the Saputo Stadium expansion plan images below.


It seems as though many major league stadiums are being designed to allow more of an open-air concourse style. It seems to be a popular style; I think because on decent weather days, people want to get lots of fresh air.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

It is so difficult to find images of most stadium concourses.

I am not sure how windy Shannon Park is? If it is cold and windy then a stadium at Shannon Park won't be pleasant (I think of Candlestick Park in San Francisco which was considered to always be cold and windy).

That is a major part of my dislike for the site. It is always colder, wetter, and windier there than almost any other location, because of the proximity to the water and the lack of any natural windbreak. It would be very similar to Candlestick in that way. I see it as a very unpleasant venue for spectators.

[q12]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

This is an interesting location for a sunken bowl stadium. I downloaded a 3D Warehouse model of Stanford Stadium (http://www.worldstadiums.com/stadium_pic...states/california/stanford_stadium.shtml), which was drawn by username - NICK, and placed it at the Dartmouth Crossings Quarry location (below). A smaller, economical stadium, such as the 20,000 seat Pizza Hut Park, would probably fit at that site very well. (http://www.worldstadiums.com/stadium_pic...ited_states/texas/frisco_pizza_hut.shtml)

There are positives and negatives of that site. Positives - land cost might be cheap, it is an interesting topography for a sunken stadium, it is close to restaurants and other amenities, and close to highways. A negative point is that it is quite far removed from the urban core and established public transit.

Dartmouth Crossing would be one of the warmest and least windiest, foggiest locations. There is highway camera (Portabello) nearby that on average records some of the hottest temperatures in HRM.

http://www.gov.ns.ca/tran/cameras/cameradetails.asp?id=Portobello

[MonctonRad]

[/QUOTE]

This is the first time that I have seen this image Fenwick, this is an excellent representation of what a stadium at the abandoned quarry at Dartmouth Crossing would look like!

The siting is perfect to my mind. It is in easy waliking distance to neighbouring restaurants in DC (and this would be facilitated by a walking bridge across the street to the back end of the Empire Cinemas). There is lots of parking in the neighbouring area, but this raises a question - wouldn't the businesses in DC object to poachers parking on game day? I woukd think that the stadium would require it's own parking.

As q12 states, this would be a nice protected site which would be less cold and less windy than Shannon Park. Access is relatively easy, either off the 118 or through Burnside. Access would also be easy for people driving from the north or from the Annapolis Valley. This would include the vast majority of non-Haligonians who would be using the facility.

This section of Dartmouth is poised to become one of the major growth centres for metro Halifax. It would make sense to locate the new stadium in a place such as this.

DC has my vote.

BTW - the long range forecast for Touchdown Atlantic in Moncton is for a sunny weekend. You're all invited to the party. My son is playing one of the high school games which will be part of the weekend festivities. They're playing their arch foe Moncton High. He's pretty pumped already. His team (BMHS Highlanders) defeated Harrison Trimble on Friday in front of about 1,500 spectators at Rocky Stone Field in Moncton. We also went down to Sackville to the Mt. A - Bishop's game yesterday as well and there was about 2,000 people at that game too.

There's nothing like football on a glorious warm fall weekend!

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

The BMO pics are interesting, but I question whether open-air concourses like that are acceptable. They would work about 8 months of the year but the rest of the time they could be unworkable. Of course, if the stadium isn't used from December to March then it isn't an issue.

I think the best idea is to build something cheap now and then improve it later. A stadium from April-Nov is better than no stadium at all, which could happen if the project experiences "feature creep" and then a notoriously flaky HRM council pulls the plug.

[Empire]

The quarry site would require a major street rework for proper access. At present there are only 3 lanes that can service the site. The two on Countryview Dr. are very hard to get to so that leaves one lane that is now the access ramp from Wright Ave. heading west. There is no direct access to the site from Wright Ave. heading east. Findlay Dr. will provide some access when completed but there would still be a bottleneck on the ramp to Wright Ave. from the 118.

DC quarry site has potentially limited access.

http://maps.google.ca/maps?q=halifax&hl=...spn=28.297189,55.283203&vpsrc=6&t=h&z=17

[halifaxboyns]

Well I think we all agree that no matter what site is chosen, there will likely be major street work required for access and parking. The Dartmouth Common site is interesting because it's literally on a major corner, so the stadium could still have a good sight line and be a major feature on the landscape as you drive out or into the area.

I also agree with the comments about Shannon and wind. I also agree with someone's comment about Uteck, but I seem to recall reading somewhere that there was a lot of contamination on the site from something. I just can't remember where I read it...I wonder if it was in one of the commonwealth games reports? I'll have to go back and look.

Shannon could be an interesting site for a long term, bigger more enclosed field if the demand for a team or the need for much bigger facilities occurred. It could also feature a different form of stadium (say the new metro centre)? Where I thought people were undervaluing the site was with the issue of wind/moisture. An easy solution for that would be do away with the coastal park option that had been expressed in the CW bid and turn the edge into a mixed use development (provided the power towers could be put underground). Then you could have some 10 storey towers blocking the wind...

But the site at DC is interesting...I can see it's potential. The exposed concourses lead me to think of opportunities not just for on site vendors, but food trucks too (it's a huge craze out here). The only downfall would be the distance to commercial facilities (like on site restaurants) is a bit much. That could be solved by having a pocket of commercial near by.

[Empire]

The DC site has great potential for high density development around the stadium and the site would have great visibility coming from the airport.

[q12]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

But the site at DC is interesting...I can see it's potential. The exposed concourses lead me to think of opportunities not just for on site vendors, but food trucks too (it's a huge craze out here). The only downfall would be the distance to commercial facilities (like on site restaurants) is a bit much. That could be solved by having a pocket of commercial near by.

Dartmouth Crossing has atleast half a dozen large restaurants/bars right next door within a minute walking distance (Jack Astor's, Montana's, Boston Pizza, Swiss Chalet, Ela, Moxie's etc.).





http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&ll=44.708972,-63.562313&spn=0.006092,0.013733&t=h&z=17&vpsrc=6

[q12]

Sue Uteck was on NEWS 95.7's Maritime Morning today and and actually sounded like she liked the Dartmouth Crossing location. She still seems to think SMU is the best, and Shannon Park is out of the question, but at least she is now open to another location.

[fenwick16]

Tim Bousquet at The Coast is reporting that the following team has been chosen for the phase 2 study. (source: http://www.thecoast.ca/RealityBites/arch...hase-2-of-halifax-stadium-study-released ).

The city had expected to spend up to $275,000 for the Phase 2 study, and the winning bid came in for $249,450. Halifax firm Fowler, Bauld & Mitchell is the winning bidder, but it is not doing the work alone; they're heading a team that consists of CEI Architecture Planning Interiors, Sierra Planning and Management, CBCL, Myrgan Inc, Entuitive, CRA Corporate Research Associates, Davis Landon, and Colliers International.

Luckily, the story is mostly just information without the usual controversy.

I am glad to see that a Halifax architectural firm was selected. I think that designing a Halifax-area stadium might be more meaningful for them than for a firm from outside the Maritimes.

[Empire]

Moncton preps for first Uteck Bowl

From the Herald...............

Tue, Sep 20 - 4:54 AM
Moncton is starting to ramp up its preparations for the first-ever Uteck Bowl to be staged in the New Brunswick city.

The CIS semi-final football game had always been held in Halifax when it was the AUS’s turn to host it. But the conference executives decided a year ago to move it to the new Moncton 2010 Stadium until at least 2017.

"The beautiful new Stade Moncton 2010 Stadium is a world class facility," AUS executive director Phil Currie said in a news release. "Our partnership with the city of Moncton has been exceptional and we are looking forward to exposing our product to a new market.

"The addition of the new facility on campus has been a catalyst for bringing new events to the city of Moncton that might not otherwise have an opportunity to be hosted here."

Tickets for the Nov. 18 game go on sale today through the Moncton Coliseum box office.

Defence Minister Peter MacKay and Universite de Moncton president and vice-chancellor Yvon Fontaine will serve as honourary co-chairs of the game.

"The 2011 Uteck Bowl is an excellent opportunity for Atlantic Canadians to enjoy high calibre competition, for top student athletes from across the country to test their mettle and for the Universite de Moncton to showcase its impressive new stadium," MacKay said in a news release. "I am gratified to be playing a part in this year’s event and wish all the athletes the very best when they take to the field in November."

The AUS playoff champion will host the Ontario University Athletics winners in this year’s event.

[Welkin]

The University of North Texas in Denton, Texas just opened their brand new football stadium this season. The stadium has just over 30,000 seats, a luxury tower containing 24 luxury suites, club seats, restaurants and suites for the press box, media, coaches.....etc. The entire stadium cost them $78 million (or just over $2,600 per seat). You don't need to spend almost $200 million (like they did in Winnipeg) for a decent CFL stadium. This one would do just fine. You can check out the stadium by doing a Google search for Apogee Stadium.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Welkin

The University of North Texas in Denton, Texas just opened their brand new football stadium this season. The stadium has just over 30,000 seats, a luxury tower containing 24 luxury suites, club seats, restaurants and suites for the press box, media, coaches.....etc. The entire stadium cost them $78 million (or just over $2,600 per seat). You don't need to spend almost $200 million (like they did in Winnipeg) for a decent CFL stadium. This one would do just fine. You can check out the stadium by doing a Google search for Apogee Stadium.

It looks very impressive. Halifax will also have to pay for the land cost and some parking. But I think that Halifax should be able to build a significant structure.