Metro Vancouver Road Infrastructure Discussion

[Metro-One]

Yeah, to me it looks like there is more than enough room for three freeway lanes to fit under the new overpass in each direction, and i also agree that this section of highway is in no need of more lanes for the time being.

[go_leafs_go02]

Originally Posted by allan_kuan

What? Serious? There seems to be enough room to squeeze in another lane if they have to. Also the interchange is in an area that will remain agricultural for some time, and current traffic demands do not warrant a three-lane highway in both directions as you might think it would. In the future, perhaps the adjacent farm road that is Westminster Hwy will need to be upgraded but that should be enough to handle the demand for the next 10 to 20 years.

You can fit another lane there no problem, but that highway could work out being 6 lanes right now. There are larger issues, such as Highway 99 from Highway 91 (Delta) down to 32 Avenue which should be 8 lanes right now (3 general + 1 HOV/BUS in each direction) Same goes for Highway 1 east of Langley to Abbotsford. 3 general + 1 HOV/BUS, and then 3 lanes each way from Abbotsford to Chilliwack.

[Millennium2002]

I disagree regarding the latter part of your statement... again, is the demand there in the valley to support such an extensive widening through the entire section?

Having said all that, local widening of the highways in Abbotsford and Chilliwack could be put in place if traffic demands warrant it. Personally I hope we don't have to do that in a long time... as that usually is the result of rather archaic urban planning.

[Stingray2004]

Originally Posted by go_leafs_go02

You can fit another lane there no problem, but that highway could work out being 6 lanes right now.

No. The Nelson Road interchange will not permit an upgrade to 6 lanes. As a regular user of Hwy 91, the current paved shoulder is all that it will accomodate. The piers with their horizontal supports will not permit clearance for 6-lanes of traffic, esp. commercial traffic.

As for Hwy 91, the 2010 AADT is 81,445. More importantly, the AAWDT is 87,898. (just west of No. 8 Road)

http://www.th.gov.bc.ca/trafficdata/trad...0P-16-13EW%20-%20N%20on%2001-01-2010.pdf

Upgrading to 6 lanes is usually contemplated with an AADT above 60,000 esp. in urban areas and esp. with a higher percentage of truck traffic akin to Hwy 91. Otherwise the LOS deteriorates.

Both MTO and Alberta Infrastructure, with their higher design standards, would have 6-laned Hwy 91 long ago. Name me one ON 400-series or one AB freeway that is still 4-lanes with that level of AADT. From my research, there aren't any.

In fact, the AB Infrastructure functional planning study of Hwy 1 @ Garden/Conrich, for example, forecasts that an AADT of 86,000 requires expansion to 10-lanes.

Let's face it, in many cases BC has inferior design standards. Eg. the SFPR, which has an 80 km/hr design speed (!!) when it should be 100 km/hr+ and has a classification of RAD (Rural Arterial Divided) - when it should have a minimal classification of RED (Rural Expressway Divided) or, better yet, RFD (Rural Freeway Divided) akin to Hwy 1 and Hwy 99.

[Zassk]

I'm not sure what you are looking at , but there is definitely space for 3x3 lanes. The new shoulders are much wider than necessary under the overpass, and there is additional space that can be claimed outside of the barriers. I don't know why they made the shoulders so wide here, but they are much wider than regulation shoulders.

Also, this is just conjecture, but I believe those cross-beams are high enough that they would not impede max-height vehicles. They do not seem to pose the same problem as the ones at the Hwy 99/91/No. 5 Road interchange.

Finally, additional width could be obtained by straightening the S-curve so that Hwy 91 attacks the overpass at a greater angle. If this was done, then I think there is sufficient space between the supports for 4 lanes.

[go_leafs_go02]

Originally Posted by allan_kuan

I disagree regarding the latter part of your statement... again, is the demand there in the valley to support such an extensive widening through the entire section?

Having said all that, local widening of the highways in Abbotsford and Chilliwack could be put in place if traffic demands warrant it. Personally I hope we don't have to do that in a long time... as that usually is the result of rather archaic urban planning.

Actually, as a traveller of Highway 1 daily between Surrey and Chilliwack, the urban parts of Highway 1 through Chilliwack and Abbotsford are usually the areas where I rarely hit congestion.

Highway 1 between 216 - 164 Street is a problem 2 to 3 days out of 5, and often I hit slowdowns in the middle of the Sumas Flats. Those are rural areas, with 70 - 90,000 AADT. Also, come out on a Friday afternoon in the Summer and tell me that Highway 1 works out JUST fine....

Everyone I've met who visits from Ontario or Alberta says..how the heck is Highway 1 still 2 lanes in each direction?!? They can't believe how archaic the design and laning remains. My dad (who lived in Vancouver in 1980 for a year) was beyond shocked that Vancouver's Highways are still designed the way they are - and really..other than the Alex Fraser Bridge and Highway 91, nothing has changed...

And all the points Stingray mentioned I 100% agree with. There's no way Alberta or Ontario would get away with leaving their urban freeways around Toronto, Calgary or Edmonton they way they are. I'm NOT advising a freeway to downtown, but regional traffic needs better connections, better/modern highways with higher design criteria. I'm NOT advocating the 16 lanes Toronto has. Rather, I'm advocating room for expansion from 4 to 6 or 8 lanes, and the provision for HOV/BUS lanes to be included in this.

As well, perhaps there will be realignment along Highway 91 in the future for the S-Curve. Certainly the curve has a rather low design speed of 100 km/h or so, and in order to be upped to 120 km/h (which I should mention - is the minimum standard for just about EVERY provincial or state jurisdiction in North America). Doubt I'll see that though.

[Metro-One]

I support highway expansion, but i feel you go a little too far. Outside of North America nearly all rural located highways are 4 lanes, and the widest urban freeways you will find is 8 lanes. 10 lanes and above only exists in crucial pressure points, such as a major river crossing (which is why i love the Gateway program's design)

The highways between Osaka and Tokyo are only 4 lanes wide (2X2) outside of the city centres, where they almost never get any winder than 3X3 (not including on/off lanes). And all the freeways in Japan are an 80kmh design speed, so don't be too sad about 100 and 110 km speed limits, they actually blow my wife and her friends away.

I would support a 3x3 on the #1 out to Chilliwhack, but the third lane would be best suited to be an HOV / Bus lane or a commercial vehicle only lane.

As for highway expansion, there indeed has been a lot that has changed beyond the Alex Fraser and the 91:

Here is a list off the top of my head:

The entire border connection program was huge, twinning highways 15 and 10.

Highway 11 was also twinned during the last 10 years.

Sections of the #7 have been twinned and are being twinned right now.

The Pitt River Bridge / interchange was a big project.

The entire Golden Ears bridge and GEW was a huge highway project. Several once at grade intersections on the 91 are now interchanges (save 72nd).

The new SFPR will be a major highway addition (even with the intersections)

And of course the entire re-vamping on highway 1 stretching over 30km is a gigantic highway expansion project.

Not to mention other projects such as the Sea to Sky highway.

In fact, i don't think BC has seen as much highway development ever than it has this last decade (and coming few years).

Don't get me wrong, i believe this has been a good thing, but some of you seem to be pushing things too far, and exaggerate how "bad" our road system is.

[go_leafs_go02]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

I support highway expansion, but i feel you go a little too far. Outside of North America nearly all rural located highways are 4 lanes, and the widest urban freeways you will find is 8 lanes. 10 lanes and above only exists in crucial pressure points, such as a major river crossing (which is why i love the Gateway program's design)

The highways between Osaka and Tokyo are only 4 lanes wide (2X2) outside of the city centres, where they almost never get any winder than 3X3 (not including on/off lanes). And all the freeways in Japan are an 80kmh design speed, so don't be too sad about 100 and 110 km speed limits, they actually blow my wife and her friends away.

I would support a 3x3 on the #1 out to Chilliwhack, but the third lane would be best suited to be an HOV / Bus lane or a commercial vehicle only lane.

As for highway expansion, there indeed has been a lot that has changed beyond the Alex Fraser and the 91:

Here is a list off the top of my head:

The entire border connection program was huge, twinning highways 15 and 10.

Highway 11 was also twinned during the last 10 years.

Sections of the #7 have been twinned and are being twinned right now.

The Pitt River Bridge / interchange was a big project.

The entire Golden Ears bridge and GEW was a huge highway project. Several once at grade intersections on the 91 are now interchanges (save 72nd).

The new SFPR will be a major highway addition (even with the intersections)

And of course the entire re-vamping on highway 1 stretching over 30km is a gigantic highway expansion project.

Not to mention other projects such as the Sea to Sky highway.

In fact, i don't think BC has seen as much highway development ever than it has this last decade (and coming few years).

Don't get me wrong, i believe this has been a good thing, but some of you seem to be pushing things too far, and exaggerate how "bad" our road system is.

I should note that with the exception of Highway 91, the Golden Ears Bridge, all Highway widenings have been done to your typical arterial standards, and I would argue that the majority of those would have been done by the municipality if they controlled those locations. I did mean when I was talking about highway widenings was looking at Fraser River crossings and the freeways that exist. Yes, things have been done like crazy in the past 10 years, I've been in BC since 2009, and I can't imagine how certain roads like Highway 10 functioned in 2007 as two lane country roads through Surrey.

And I'd argue that comparing design standards to Japan is moot. I can say that Germany uses 150 km/h design speeds - maybe we should use those. Nevertheless, BC & Vancouver are in North America, and designs and standards should be established at the national level. The USA has design standards for all interstate freeways, regardless of states. I would argue that many design standards used by the MOT would be laughed at by many Departments of Transportation in the USA, plus other jurisdictions across the country. I have absolutely no problems with how the roads are designed or built once you get outside of the Fraser Valley or Metro Vancouver across the province. However, from a more urban design experience - there are many many things I'd like to see upgraded in and around Vancouver.

As well, almost everywhere you go, a metro area and nearby cities with populations greater than 100,000 (Abbotsford) would by now have a very decent transit connection. Highway 1 really is the only option to get to Vancouver from Abbotsford. Heck, you need a taxi to get from Chilliwack to Abbotsford, and you need to take a conventional transit bus to get to Mission to access the West Coast Express if you so choose.

And Metro-One, Allen_kuan, & Sting-ray - have you ever had to drive Highway 1 between Surrey and Abbotsford on a summer weekend or your typical peak period?

[Metro-One]

Yes I have, many times, hence why I said I would support an upgrade to a 3x3 standard from Surrey to Chilliwhack. (but would like to have the third lane be a commercial only, which would get many of the trucks out of the general purpose lanes, or an HOV / Bus lane (many regional and national bus lines use that stretch of highway, os such a lane would be regularly used)

But I don't feel the 91 / 91A need to be 6 lanes. What I would do on those highways is replace the 72nd intersection with an interchange ASAP and rebuild the eastbound 91 off ramp to the 91A eastbound (the turn you take to go to New West instead of Delta) to a proper fly over that only reduces speeds to 70 or 80. The current underpass is terrible and is incredibly wavy now due to poor settling.

I also believe that the SFPR should have been built as a true freeway from the get go, there I agree was a big miss calculation.

But as far as following American design standards, i don't think so. There urban freeway design standard are horrendous to the urban fabric, hence why i do not think mentioning Japan's urban freeways is moot, because they are a model in urban design (hence why i also support elevated structures). European urban freeways are similar in design to Japan's, trust me, you wont find any 150km/h urban highways in Germany, that is only out in the rurals (and in all honesty, aside from a few bad curves, the #5 is easily drivable at 150 km/h in its current alignment).

Again, I am not against you, we just have different visions in regards to highway design.

[bardak]

Originally Posted by allan_kuan

What? Serious? There seems to be enough room to squeeze in another lane if they have to.

Hell they could fit two bus lanes if they got the same guy who designed the 99 one to do so here.

[xd_1771]

I don't think there would be any need to expand westbound to 3 lanes under the overpass, as it doesn't actually usually have much problem in terms of movement; any potential problems in movement resulting from merging movements at the Nelson Road interchange could be solved with the addition of a 3rd lane onwards from there. Eastbound could definitely use it from Knight through to the current 3 lane section at some point in the future.

In the past I had often travelled every weekend to and from a second property in Abbotsford or Mission, I can say that while it can often move well, it is very crowded and in need of expansion. Cars line up the passing lane and pass you in long lineups, sometimes with no more than a car to a couple of car's width between each other.

If you have ever been to Seattle Premium Outlets at Tulalip and looked out at the amount of traffic on I-5, you can notice that the 3-laning is definitely necessary and largely beneficial to that section of the corridor. The stretch north of Everett is fairly comparable to Route 1 between Abbotsford and Chiliwack and handles the traffic volume exceptionally well. The 2-lane/direction I-15 between Barstow and Primm, Nevada (where it widens to 3 lanes ROW) benefits from the occasional third truck lane for trucks and slow vehicles, a similar implementation would definitely be successful here. Highway 1 is pretty much the definite go-to goods movement route between Surrey/Metro Vancouver and Chiliwack and east, similar to how I-15 is the go-to route between Las Vegas and California. I don't think that HOV lanes would be utilised very much as the communities in question are largely independent - that is, a majority of commutes are within-city and not inter-city; thus I think it would be improper to use HOV lanes in that area. The HOV lanes on I5 into Seattle begin just north of Everest city centre, the last major urban area before hitting long stretches of rural farmland, and continue from there only. Similarly I think the implementation of HOV lanes from 202nd St/Langley only is just fine.

Oh, if I'm not mistaken, the previous decade was also huge in terms of BC highway expansion:
-Twinning of Route 19 on the island
-Nanaimo Bypass
-Construction of expanded roads/freeways in Victoria
-Cassiar Tunnel
-Twinning of the upper levels highway and upbringing to full freeway standard
-HOV lanes along highway 1 were added
-Various minor upgrades to Highway 1 in the valley to bring it to full freeway standard (incl. revamping of a section just west of Chiliwack)

[6042905]

Highway 91 is not a "rural" highway as Metro-One called it lmao. Its a crucial urban highway connecting Surrey and New West with Richmond and Vancouver. It just happens to be surrounded by farms in some areas. But just beyond those farms are metro areas again.

I take that stretch of highway to work everyday from New West to Richmond and its an absolute nightmare. In rush hour its a parking lot and not unusual to see it backed up from the Alex Fraser or Queensborough Bridge all the way to the Knight Street interchange.

Also it has to be noted that the amount of truck traffic coming from the massive shipping/warehouse complex south of Westminster and Nelson road is insane. It'll be really interesting to see how much those trucks muck up HWY 91 which is already beyond capacity and should be upgraded. All truck traffic will be using the Nelson interchange because its not as bad as the 2 lane Westminster Road.

[DKaz]

Originally Posted by xd_1771

-HOV lanes along highway 1 were added
-Various minor upgrades to Highway 1 in the valley to bring it to full freeway standard (incl. revamping of a section just west of Chiliwack)

HOV Lanes on Hwy 1 opened October 28, 1998.

Does anyone remember when the Hwy 1 WB onramp was moved from Cape Horn to Coleman and when the onramp from Mary Hill Bypass and offramp onto Cape Horn fixed? Did the two ramps weave before the improvements? This all happened before my driving years I know that, I got my Class 7N in September 2000.

[6042905]

Anyone know the most recent numbers for the Golden Ears Bridge? I know they're still way below predictions. No ones choosing to use it

[go_leafs_go02]

Originally Posted by 6042905

Highway 91 is not a "rural" highway as Metro-One called it lmao. Its a crucial urban highway connecting Surrey and New West with Richmond and Vancouver. It just happens to be surrounded by farms in some areas. But just beyond those farms are metro areas again.

I take that stretch of highway to work everyday from New West to Richmond and its an absolute nightmare. In rush hour its a parking lot and not unusual to see it backed up from the Alex Fraser or Queensborough Bridge all the way to the Knight Street interchange.

Also it has to be noted that the amount of truck traffic coming from the massive shipping/warehouse complex south of Westminster and Nelson road is insane. It'll be really interesting to see how much those trucks muck up HWY 91 which is already beyond capacity and should be upgraded. All truck traffic will be using the Nelson interchange because its not as bad as the 2 lane Westminster Road.

Yep, and it is an "urban" freeway, within a rural land area - meaning it won't muck up urban areas and be a blight on a neighbourhood. It provides a HUGE link between two major urban areas in metro Vancouver.

Gateway is a HUGE start, but once that's over, there's still PLENTY that needs to be done to bring Vancouver up to the levels seen in other jurisdictions in the country. (Massey Tunnel Replacement, Highway 1 east to Abbotsford, Fixing the dangerous "Cut" north of the Ironworkers, 72 Avenue interchange, Highway 91 widening through Richmond, Highway 99 widening to South Surrey/White Rock, 16 Avenue upgrade towards Abbotsford)

[go_leafs_go02]

Originally Posted by 6042905

Anyone know the most recent numbers for the Golden Ears Bridge? I know they're still way below predictions. No ones choosing to use it

Just wait till the Port Mann is tolled starting in about 12 months to 16 months. You'll see significant growth on there then.

[Zassk]

Originally Posted by DKaz

HOV Lanes on Hwy 1 opened October 28, 1998.

Does anyone remember when the Hwy 1 WB onramp was moved from Cape Horn to Coleman and when the onramp from Mary Hill Bypass and offramp onto Cape Horn fixed? Did the two ramps weave before the improvements? This all happened before my driving years I know that, I got my Class 7N in September 2000.

They happened at the same time. They were all part of the same project that saw a 5th lane squeezed onto the Port Mann. (This project was the NDP government's "bone" thrown to the Lower Mainland while their union pals were building a superhighway across Vancouver Island.)

[DKaz]

I have evidence that there was at least a one or two year gap between the HOV lanes and the Coleman/Cape Horn improvements.

Exhibit A, clearly see original Cape Horn arrangement and HOV lanes:


Exhibit B, seems that the eastbound HOV lanes did not extend onto the Port Mann yet?:


Bonus tiny photo, whoa look how old this is!!!:

[go_leafs_go02]

From 1991:

http://www.globalairphotos.com/large/BC/Coquitlam/South/1991/045/2



Interesting that the Maryhill Bypass used to have to go up United to Lougheed to get on Highway 1.

[go_leafs_go02]

And I found this pretty neat photo from 1991 of the Cassiar Tunnel being constructed.



http://www.globalairphotos.com/large/BC/Vancouver/North/1991/026/2