Metro Vancouver Road Infrastructure Discussion

[Political_R]

The MOT really needs an incident response team. WSDOT typically can get our roadways reopened inbetween 30 minutes-3 hours for traffic to get moving again. I though the response today was absolutely horrendous. It didn't help that you had a 99 NB stall with the one SB lane blocked counterflow lane in SB direction at one point. Two accidents on 91, especially when blocking two lanes on approach to the AF bridge. Six hours is quite long, even for a fatality accident here down south of the 49th, most of those are cleared within 3 hours. I am not sure if you could have done any better given the rush hour circumstances and how long it would have taken for the crane to hoist the container off the roadway, but if it was only going to take 5-10 minutes and reopen SB traffic to two lanes in the main tube, that might have been worth it. Also, from the looks of things, when drivers space out like they do, that reduces the effective capacity of the tunnel. It did not look like many used the counterflow lane based off the cameras but I could be wrong on that one.

[xd_1771]

It's ridiculous events like these that make me want to pressure the BC MOT into constructing more lanes on our highways... as unattractive as it might be, a single extra lane (two lanes to three lanes) can create so much beneficial redundancy - I mean that if/when an accident blocks one lane, you haven't pretty much blocked off half of one direction of the entire highway, and you're shortening the length of a potential traffic jam. I mean, Rte 91 from the Massey Tunnel through to 49th Ave!? Jeez, what a nightmare...

[Mousey]

Originally Posted by xd_1771

It's ridiculous events like these that make me want to pressure the BC MOT into constructing more lanes on our highways... as unattractive as it might be, a single extra lane (two lanes to three lanes) can create so much beneficial redundancy - I mean that if/when an accident blocks one lane, you haven't pretty much blocked off half of one direction of the entire highway, and you're shortening the length of a potential traffic jam. I mean, Rte 91 from the Massey Tunnel through to 49th Ave!? Jeez, what a nightmare...

It helps, but until recently how often did major collisions like this really happen? The scariest thought to me would be if something like this happens again let's say on a Friday afternoon into a long weekend... Imagine the delays for something like that. Thank god it happened on a Monday which has the fewest commuters during the week. Only time I ever hear delays as bad as today are when it snows, or a major bridge is completely shut down due to a serious incident. AFB a few years ago was closed completely NB and 2 lanes SB and as a result SB Tunnel became congested from 33rd...

Hwy 10 is a very strange highway, and depends when you hit it during the commute home. To my work at 152nd @ Hwy 10 I have gotten on it at 4:30pm during the week at Scott Rd. and made it in less than 5 minutes. Other days (especially during Canucks Playoff Games) it becomes extremely congested between 152nd and KGB. Which turns it into 25 minutes.

[go_leafs_go02]

Like today, I seen pictures of that container that somehow fell off and onto the concrete median. Really, block a lane for a few minutes - get a tow truck - tow the container (even drag it) across the pavement and into the shoulder. maybe I'm over-simplifying it, but at rush hour - you gotta have incident response teams. Vancouver highways are likely closest to the busiest 4 lane roads in the country (I say that because every where else, 6+ lane highway exists). I don't know how they can just leave stuff like that until travel volumes lower. Block it off for the 30 minutes or whatever, clear everything quickly, and voila. Be done.

In terms of Highway 1 east towards Langley and Abbotsford, heck even Chilliwack. Any little thing on there now slows traffic for kilometers after kilometers. A minor fender bender, or a truck into the ditch magically ends up in lane closures for hours. Honestly, the reason why there are so many major accidents is because these highways are all over-capacity and in desperate need of safety upgrades and widening. Say what you will about highway widening, but in some ways, it's a necessity for safety reasons. Having your main roads be blocked for hours upon hours in spots is not a good policy. Something has to be done to make responses more efficient. They gotta have policies for everything that can happen in terms of incidents. Perfect item - they have tow trucks at either end of the Alex Fraser Bridge to collect stalls - oh wait, they're only good enough to tow your typical car or light van. There's something that could be looked at - and same for the Port Mann, and the Massey Tunnel.

[s211]

Originally Posted by go_leafs_go02

Is there any way that the Ministry can be more prepared to handle truck accidents? There have been quite a few the last few weeks, and one truck can screw up everything for thousands of people. Look at the Massey Tunnel today. Truck loses its load at 3 PM, and even now, 6 hours later, they're just starting to remove it. Add an accident on at the Alex Fraser Bridge, and there was literally 1-2 hours wait to get out of Richmond into Delta.

Six hours ?!?!?!?

[go_leafs_go02]

Originally Posted by s211

Six hours ?!?!?!?

Yep, here's a sample of tweets from News 1130 Trafffic:

news1130traffic News1130 Traffic
255pm - in RICHMOND, report of a truck that has lost a container on Hwy99 southbound in the left lane right before the Massey Tunnel

news1130traffic News1130 Traffic
315pm - MASSEY TUNNEL is single lane traffic each direction due to a truck that lost a contanier southbound in the left lane

news1130traffic News1130 Traffic
330pm - MASSEY TUNNEL now has the counterflow lane in so there are 2 lanes southbound but traffic is still backed up on Hwy99 southbound

news1130traffic News1130 Traffic
405pm - in RICHMOND, Hwy99 southbound to the Massey Tunnel is now backing up to the Oak St bridge

news1130traffic News1130 Traffic
811pm Still massive delays in both directions at MASSEY and on STEVESTON

news1130traffic News1130 Traffic
855pm Counterflow lane is open heading north at MASSEY tunnel. Only one lane open south and backing up fast.

news1130traffic News1130 Traffic
8:55 Expect major delays on STEVESTON highway in both directions due to issues at MASSEY TUNNEL.

news1130traffic News1130 Traffic
9:05 Police are now blocking the on and off-ramps from STEVESTON HIGHWAY TO HIGHWAY 99 near MASSEY TUNNEL.

news1130traffic News1130 Traffic
9:15 Southbound traffic for MASSEY TUNNEL is now completely closed as crews attempt to move the container.

news1130traffic News1130 Traffic
9:28 MASSEY TUNNEL now open two lanes in both directions.


So yep, that's 6.5 hours for dealing with one container truck that lost its load. Oh, and according to the tweets, it took between 15 minutes to 30 minutes to get rid of the container.

[s211]

Originally Posted by go_leafs_go02

Yep, here's a sample of tweets from News 1130 Trafffic:

news1130traffic News1130 Traffic
255pm - in RICHMOND, report of a truck that has lost a container on Hwy99 southbound in the left lane right before the Massey Tunnel

news1130traffic News1130 Traffic
315pm - MASSEY TUNNEL is single lane traffic each direction due to a truck that lost a contanier southbound in the left lane

news1130traffic News1130 Traffic
330pm - MASSEY TUNNEL now has the counterflow lane in so there are 2 lanes southbound but traffic is still backed up on Hwy99 southbound

news1130traffic News1130 Traffic
405pm - in RICHMOND, Hwy99 southbound to the Massey Tunnel is now backing up to the Oak St bridge

news1130traffic News1130 Traffic
811pm Still massive delays in both directions at MASSEY and on STEVESTON

news1130traffic News1130 Traffic
855pm Counterflow lane is open heading north at MASSEY tunnel. Only one lane open south and backing up fast.

news1130traffic News1130 Traffic
8:55 Expect major delays on STEVESTON highway in both directions due to issues at MASSEY TUNNEL.

news1130traffic News1130 Traffic
9:05 Police are now blocking the on and off-ramps from STEVESTON HIGHWAY TO HIGHWAY 99 near MASSEY TUNNEL.

news1130traffic News1130 Traffic
9:15 Southbound traffic for MASSEY TUNNEL is now completely closed as crews attempt to move the container.

news1130traffic News1130 Traffic
9:28 MASSEY TUNNEL now open two lanes in both directions.


So yep, that's 6.5 hours for dealing with one container truck that lost its load. Oh, and according to the tweets, it took between 15 minutes to 30 minutes to get rid of the container.

Pathetic and laughable, all at once.

[Political_R]

Originally Posted by s211

Pathetic and laughable, all at once.

Take some clues from South of the 49th, max cleanup on our freeways is 3 hours max, even with fatality accidents. Acceleration lanes should at least be 500 meters, 300 meters for merges. That would definitely increase safety. Also full width shoulders the entire length of 99 could help.

[Mousey]

http://vancouver.ca/engsvcs/transport/clark-knight/

Yes!!!

[xd_1771]

Originally Posted by Mousey

http://vancouver.ca/engsvcs/transport/clark-knight/

Yes!!!

As the busiest north-south truck corridor in Vancouver (and with little likelihood of this changing any time soon) I think there definitely needs to be changes to how this corridor is planned. I'm very glad that such plans exist. On street parking needs to be moved somewhere else. I can understand on street parking on city roads but Knight St definitely should be made an exception if widespread left turn protection (or a median) is not added. As it is also a busier transit corridor (the route 22 has one of the highest pass up rates according to the Vancouver sun), I think adjustments need to be made for this.

My suggestions on what to do with the Clark-Knight corridor:

• Remove street side parking (move that to adjacent residential streets). On such a corridor it is simply inappropriate.
• Investments to make the corridor more transit-friendly, as it is a very busy transit corridor. I.e. turn the curbside parking lane into a bus priority lane, which can be used by potential B-Line infrastructure on the corridor - Clark/Knight would be effectively repurposed to 2 general purpose (passenger & freight traffic) lanes + 1 bus lane/right turn lane, a fair combination. This combination should be implemented THROUGHOUT the corridor.
• Full through-lane protection (i.e. prevent left turns from through lanes) - the idea of trucks in a row in the left lane having to randomly hit brakes when one vehicle turns left - or when vehicles swerve suddenly into the middle lane to avoid such left turning vehicles - scares me. Even if this does not happen extremely often, it definitely happens on a daily basis. By full through-lane protection, I mean:
  • Installation of additional left turn bays at major intersections
  • Construction of median barriers along the entire corridor, to prevent left turns onto minor intersections where left turn lanes cannot be added due to corridor width restriction (note that such barrier would not necessarily block the ability to cross the road by pedestrians and cyclists, who may still cross at traffic signal controlled intersections by way of gaps big enough for passing through*). This would not only allow for safe freeflow movement, but largely increase the overall travel safety. It is a fact that installing median barriers has the largest effect on increasing road safety.
  • Or, keep intersections without left turn lanes but with strict left turn prohibition, at select locations.
  • Note: As the Vancouver local road system is grid-based, it will not be difficult to find alternative direct routes to one's home where left turns are blocked.
• Increase in pedestrian traffic signal count to allow for safer crossing and to make up for the loss of ability to cross the road some at minor intersections
• Optimized light timing (slightly longer green lights/green waves) to make up for the increased traffic signal count
• This can be done while maintaining the 60km/h arterial road speed limit

* - for an example of what I mean, have a look at what is done at Clark & E 10th Avenue. Imagine that but with a narrower jersey barrier, along the narrower 6 lane/no turn lane sections.

[DKaz]

Um... this is City of Vancouver we're talking about. lol.

There are already left turn lanes at most of the major intersections. E57th could use them. Venables as well although traffic starts to trickle down around there and there is lack of room.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by DKaz

There are already left turn lanes at most of the major intersections. E57th could use them.

What I'm really looking forward to is the doubling of left turn lanes from westbound E57th to southbound Knight. Right now E57th sometimes gets backed up 3 blocks to Argyle with people waiting to turn left there. An additional lane in the left turn bay will be a huge improvement.

[Millennium2002]

Yes, really looking forward to that as well, especially as a local resident. Makes going to Richmond to eat much easier. =)

[xd_1771]

Highway 91 at Nelson Road has opened!
LINK

[Zassk]

^^ You beat me to it! It's amazing how quickly this interchange was built, start to finish. If only the work ethic on Hwy 99 could have resembled this.

For the record, Nelson Road is exit 15. Also, all of the other off-ramps on Hwy 91 are getting new exit signs with proper exit numbers.

Here are pics snapped by me a few minutes ago.


By zassk at 2011-08-23


By zassk at 2011-08-23


By zassk at 2011-08-23


By zassk at 2011-08-23


By zassk at 2011-08-23

[Metro-One]

Cool, thanks for the pic! Now if only we could do something about 72nd....

[xd_1771]

I know, I swear only a couple weeks ago I was passing the interchange and it didn't even look close to complete (though the signs were up without exit number tabs).

Show me more of that westbound merge! I am wondering if it is designed to taper or have an acceleration lane. An acceleration lane would definitely be important due to the use of the on-ramp most frequently by trucks. The original design PDF seemed to show more of a tapered design, but judging from the placement of the 4 streetlights there looks to be an at least proper acceleration lane. If not it could affect traffic on the 91WB that has been somewhat unbothered for awhile.

I wouldn't be surprised if the 410 Fraserwood were to use this new interchange too.

[go_leafs_go02]

Originally Posted by xd_1771

I know, I swear only a couple weeks ago I was passing the interchange and it didn't even look close to complete (though the signs were up without exit number tabs).

Show me more of that westbound merge! I am wondering if it is designed to taper or have an acceleration lane. An acceleration lane would definitely be important due to the use of the on-ramp most frequently by trucks. The original design PDF seemed to show more of a tapered design, but judging from the placement of the 4 streetlights there looks to be an at least proper acceleration lane. If not it could affect traffic on the 91WB that has been somewhat unbothered for awhile.

I wouldn't be surprised if the 410 Fraserwood were to use this new interchange too.

Pretty sure the MOT puts in acceleration lanes now in any locations around Vancouver for merge lanes. They'd be nuts to avoid that.

[Stingray2004]

Originally Posted by Zassk

By zassk at 2011-08-23

The only problem with the design is that the cross-section does not permit a future 3 x 3 cross-section esp. with the location and design of the pillars.

Hwy 91 should have been upgraded to a 3 x 3 lane cross-section along time ago from the Knight Fwy to the Hwy 91/91A split. 4-lane fwys are not functional in urban areas.

[Millennium2002]

What? Serious? There seems to be enough room to squeeze in another lane if they have to. Also the interchange is in an area that will remain agricultural for some time, and current traffic demands do not warrant a three-lane highway in both directions as you might think it would. In the future, perhaps the adjacent farm road that is Westminster Hwy will need to be upgraded but that should be enough to handle the demand for the next 10 to 20 years.