Halifax Stadium Discussion

[someone123]

Originally Posted by MaritimeCFLFan

It is possible. However if there already are private investors who have been talking with Mark Cohon then another reason to keep it all hush hush for now is that the government at all levels will have a hard time justifying the use of any $ that in the end will help to build a stadium with the long term purpose of being used to house a professional sports team (CFL). I feel the only way the Feds especially can contribute $ is if it appears to be used in the building of a stadium for an International Sporting Event (FIFA). It would be very difficult for the Feds to come out and say they would spend a single penny towards a stadium for future use by the CFL after they have already told Quebec City they won't contribute to their new NHL ready rink. I suspect that there is indeed alot going on behind closed doors at this point but thats just my opinion.

Yep. It seems pretty clear that they need to build a simple stadium now that can be expanded if necessary for the CFL. I think this also makes sense -- the feds contribute to the useful public portion and then the CFL makes a deal for any frills they want.

I believe that a CFL team is very likely if a basic 20,000-25,000 seat stadium goes up.

[Empire]

Originally Posted by wespidel

My point Halifaxboyns, is that if Halifax were to build a new Metro Centre, they would be spending at least 280 million so why is a stadium any different. Why build a 10 thousand permanent seat stadium, in a city the size of Halifax! Well we all know why and that is because Saint Marys needs it and it barely qualifies for FIFA and that in my opinion is wrong and an insult to our city!

I appreciate your opinion but the majority people in Halifax and in the region that have any vision all want a bigger and better stadium built and do not want a tiny little dinky 10 thousand permanent seat stadium. I have talked to a lot of people in the city and in the region and so have these people and all are on the same page and why wouldn`t they be!

wespidel, you are missing the point. Halifax had a CFL team in 1983 and lost it because we wouldn't build a mickey mouse stadium with no skyboxes concessions or washrooms that would only cost $9 million. We lost a stadium in 2007 because HRM chickened out of the Commonwealth Games and the hopes of a stadium faded out of the limelight. In 2011 we have another chance to build a stadium that fits the landscape and economics of the region because of the FIFA World Cup. What have we learned? We have learned that when a stadium for HRM seems imminent something/many things screw up and it doesn't happen. If you want a 25-30 thousand seat stadium for Halifax with all of the washrooms and concessions that a CFL franchise could ever dream of then you just might get that by starting with a 15,000 permanent seat stadium comprised of adequate washrooms, concessions and media/skyboxes. This stadium would be designed so expansion would see a 25-30 thousand permanent seat stadium evolve with many skyboxes, shops, restaurants etc. when a CFL team is inked.....patience is a virtue.............

[Antigonish]

So lets say they settle on a 12k-14k stadium with adequate washrooms/concessions/skyboxes I sure freakin' hope they construct this all on one grandstand. It's hard to expand a stadium with 2 small 1-level stands on either side with facilities all spread out..

[wespidel]

I understand that probably it won`t be built at Saint Marys but a 10 thousand permanent seat stadium is a university size stadium, isn`t it and it will be used by SMU because they have no money to build their own. That`s my point, I understand what your talking about. It will not be anymore than a replacement stadium for Saint Marys when the FIFA World Cup is over because it will not be big enough to attract anything else.

[Empire]

Originally Posted by NISH89

So lets say they settle on a 12k-14k stadium with adequate washrooms/concessions/skyboxes I sure freakin' hope they construct this all on one grandstand. It's hard to expand a stadium with 2 small 1-level stands on either side with facilities all spread out..

Excellent point. I think that the permanent section of the stadium should be build on one side (c/w partial rooof) much the same as SMU stadium. Build 15,000 permanent seats with adequate washrooms, media/skyboxes etc. on one side. The opposite side would allow for 10-15 thousand temporary seats. Each endzone could accommodate 8-10 thousand temporary seats. When it is time to expand, 10 thousand permanent seats could be added across from the existing structure.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by Empire

Excellent point. I think that the permanent section of the stadium should be build on one side (c/w partial rooof) much the same as SMU stadium. Build 15,000 permanent seats with adequate washrooms, media/skyboxes etc. on one side. The opposite side would allow for 10-15 thousand temporary seats. Each endzone could accommodate 8-10 thousand temporary seats. When it is time to expand, 10 thousand permanent seats could be added across from the existing structure.

A stadium loses a lot of intimacy when you have a grand stand on one side and nothing on the other 3 sides. The better strategy is to build a grandstand on both sides, but only from about the 18 yard line to the other 18 yard line. If each grandstand has 7,000 seats you have a permanent 14,000 seat facility.

If the facility is also a sunken bowl, you also end up with a facility that feels intimate: stands on both sides, and a grassy bank elsewhere to form that complete bowl.

Expansion with this type of design can be done bit by bit while still maintaining great ambiance within the stadium. Considering it's 150 yards from the back of one end zone to the back of the other end zone, the 7,000 permanent seats takes up roughly half the length or 74 yards: 18 yard line to 18 yard line.

Expanding one grandstand to the length of the playing surface (the full 150 yards) would add 7,000 seats bringing the total facility to 21,000. Doing the other side would get you up to 28,000. Wrapping around one end zone would likely get you another 7,000 seats to get you a 35,000 seater. Building out the remaining end zone would get you a Grey Cup ready 42,000 seater.

This design strategy accomplishes many things in a thoughtful way that doesn't compromise the football experience. At each stage we get a facility that provides good seats and an intimate stadium. Start with 14,000; then build to 21,000 for CFL exhibition games; expand to 28,000 for Day 1 of your CFL franchise; then use end zones to get to either 35,000 or 42,000 seats for special events.

[wespidel]

I personally think this is ridiculous, to build a half a stadium in a city the size of Halifax. Build it right the first time! I`m sure they wouldn`t build a half of a new Metro Centre or new Convention Centre, woild they!
But since you mentioned this about one side which they will probably do because they did show a slide of the main side of BMO field, when talking about size.

[Waye Mason]

Until there are users who regularly need it, why expand the Metro Centre? Even TCL, who operate the place, concede they don't need more than a couple thousand more seats. Go to a Rainmen or Moosehead game and tell me we need more seats!

From an event perspective, this town is horrible at buying advance tickets, in part because with all our already oversized venues, people know that there are likely to be tickets the day before or day of shows. A bigger arena would make that worse.

I think HMC has 15-25 years left in it, with a mid life refit sometime in the next few years.

[fenwick16]

On a somewhat related topic, having 10,000 seats at the Metro Centre shouldn't be an argument against having a large outdoor stadium. The two venues are used for different events. A football/soccer field is more than 5 times the area of an ice pad.

[beyeas]

Originally Posted by MaritimeCFLFan

It is possible. However if there already are private investors who have been talking with Mark Cohon then another reason to keep it all hush hush for now is that the government at all levels will have a hard time justifying the use of any $ that in the end will help to build a stadium with the long term purpose of being used to house a professional sports team (CFL). I feel the only way the Feds especially can contribute $ is if it appears to be used in the building of a stadium for an International Sporting Event (FIFA). It would be very difficult for the Feds to come out and say they would spend a single penny towards a stadium for future use by the CFL after they have already told Quebec City they won't contribute to their new NHL ready rink. I suspect that there is indeed alot going on behind closed doors at this point but thats just my opinion.

Very true... and that is the flaw in the plan that I had stated in my last post.

It is difficult because it is such a chicken-and-the-egg deal. It is tough to justify building a 25k seat stadium without at least some indication of genuine movement in the private sector to move forward on a CFL team. But, you can't go around talking about we are doing that for a CFL team and then shoot the project in the foot for a lack of federal funding for professional sports.

You may therefore be totally right that things are being kept quiet in the interests of keeping the focus 100% on the FIFA project.

Having said that, my cynical side says that a potential private owner would likely stay on the sidelines as long as possible to try and milk public funds for all they can, because the second they step forward with money the funding equation will shift in their direction.

Given all that, it is the reason why I am actually comfortable with a 14k seat stadium, built with public funds, that is upgradable later to the needs of a CFL team. Asking for 25k permanent seats for a FIFA stadium is a recipe for public uproar and no stadium at all, and building a stadium that locks us in to 20k or less is a recipe for a wasted investment that can't be leveraged in the future for a CFL team. As long as it is a 14k seat upgradable later, I am comfortable.

[TheNovaScotian]

I agree with Fenwick, to form a basis to not build a stadium on your incorrect assumptions (which I feel most of Waye Mason's information relies heavily on) would lack vision for the future of our growing city. The funniest part is you advocated in a earlier post, expanding Neptune theatre which rarely sells out. You contradict yourself in your latest post asking where the anchor tenants are and then answer it. It wasn't that long ago the Moosehead's had the highest average attendance in the QMJHL before Quebec came into the league. When the team was winning the Metro Centre was sold out for a good stretch.
A stadiums business plan cannot be based on assumptions of un-related points.
We have a city that has shown it supports teams if they are winning, so you have to plan accordingly.
My biggest worry about doing the stadium in 3 phases is look how hard we had to fight to get to this point. That's 3 application to the Feds, Province and 3 votes at council. It makes it hard to quantify when 1 application to the Feds took well over a year for the convention centre. The federal government does not want this to drag on they want to rubber stamp 1 application and hope Quebec isn't paying attention.

[q12]

Originally Posted by Waye Mason

From an event perspective, this town is horrible at buying advance tickets, in part because with all our already oversized venues, people know that there are likely to be tickets the day before or day of shows. A bigger arena would make that worse.

What a poor arguement. The Mooseheads who have been around for a long time have had some seasons where sellouts were not uncommon (maybe before your time? ).

They are on track to probably have record breaking attendance this year or next with Nathan Mackinnon. They had almost 3,000 people show up at each pre-season games last weekend at the forum.

The only thing that makes this town horrible is the anti-everything crowd.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Can somebody explain to me why all the, what I would consider liberal, council members are so against public spending??? Is it simply that they just don't like sports or urban infrastructure?

Any socialist-democratic country I have been to actively supports both their transit and sports infrastructure.

I mean, if HRM dropped $60 million on a stadium and somehow it was a major failure... wouldn't recouping that money be quite easy given the tax base. With the right financing arrangement, it could likely be paid down in 5 years with minimal interest accumulation or impact on the rest of the budget? The way HRM has been spending tens of millions on projects that don't have any significant impact on the city as a whole, we could probably already have a stadium.

I find it odd that left-of-centre people are acting like complete fiscal conservatives. Next thing you know they'll be talking about cutting taxes... is the world upside down or did I just not understand economic/political ideology properly?

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Waye Mason

From an event perspective, this town is horrible at buying advance tickets, in part because with all our already oversized venues, people know that there are likely to be tickets the day before or day of shows. A bigger arena would make that worse.

You are clearly speaking from the perspective of somebody who markets tickets for events and wants to charge a high price. From the perspective of the spectators, who are the ones footing the bills for these venues, it is best to have a few empty seats. If there are empty seats then we know that people who want to attend can attend (assuming the tickets are cheap enough -- hopefully the new stadium will have a variety of affordable events and some free events). If a show quickly sells out then there are almost certainly disappointed would-be event goers who nevertheless still paid for the venue with their tax money. Too bad for them I guess!

[beyeas]

Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian

Can somebody explain to me why all the, what I would consider liberal, council members are so against public spending??? Is it simply that they just don't like sports or urban infrastructure?

Any socialist-democratic country I have been to actively supports both their transit and sports infrastructure.

I mean, if HRM dropped $60 million on a stadium and somehow it was a major failure... wouldn't recouping that money be quite easy given the tax base. With the right financing arrangement, it could likely be paid down in 5 years with minimal interest accumulation or impact on the rest of the budget? The way HRM has been spending tens of millions on projects that don't have any significant impact on the city as a whole, we could probably already have a stadium.

I find it odd that left-of-centre people are acting like complete fiscal conservatives. Next thing you know they'll be talking about cutting taxes... is the world upside down or did I just not understand economic/political ideology properly?

My take on it is that what we have is a stalemate. I see two main camps on council (with a few exceptions)...

There is the so-called "liberal" camp who would be totally fine with spending as long as it all went 100% to green initiatives and not to things that involve the potential for someone like an evil developer/contractor to make a (insert *shudder* here) profit because clearly all developers are out to build bland concrete behemoths and then walk away with wads of cash sticking out of their pockets. They are therefore on principal against stadia and trade centres etc.

Then there is are the rural councillors, who firstly view any infrastructure in the urban core as nothing but support for the evil empire known as "Halifax" (insert *evil mastermind laugh* here), and secondly more generally seem to feel that they represent suburban voters who more than anything else want property taxes to go down so we can leave them to their 1 acre massively-expensive-to-service-lots in peace.

There is just no balance on the council, and rare that I see much middle ground. For the past decade there has also been no leadership, which is part of what allowed a lot of this to develop. It is only very recently that the mayor has started to show some ability to take control of an agenda and sway votes on council.

[q12]

Originally Posted by beyeas

It is only very recently that the mayor has started to show some ability to take control of an agenda and sway votes on council.

Thank god for that!

By the way found some interresting tweets from Waye, who seems to be actively trying to stop the stadium. I think we have our next Bruce Devenne. http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=2248041900&topic=2841

WayeMason Waye Mason
@
@patricetheace I'd rather build a bunch of fields and rec centres than the stadium... expensive for limited use.
11 Aug

WayeMason Waye Mason
@
@chefraybear I think so, wish Dexter had said so before HRM went to spend money on phase 2
11 Aug

http://twitter.com/#!/WayeMason

Here is another website promoting the stadium, which links to a facebook site that has over 3,500 members (not bad).

http://halifax.stadium.tripod.com/
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2248041900

[Jstaleness]

Originally Posted by q12

By the way found some interresting tweets from Waye, who seems to be actively trying to stop the stadium. I think we have our next Bruce Devenne. http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=2248041900&topic=2841

WayeMason Waye Mason
@
@patricetheace I'd rather build a bunch of fields and rec centres than the stadium... expensive for limited use.
11 Aug

WayeMason Waye Mason
@
@chefraybear I think so, wish Dexter had said so before HRM went to spend money on phase 2
11 Aug

http://twitter.com/#!/WayeMason

I'll agree on the second one to a certain extent. It will be a waste of money if all these studies and phases are charged to the tax payer for no gain. If the province and Feds don't chip in then it's up to a huge private purchaser. However I believe we have a strong case here. It can't be compared to Quebec's arena. The NHL expects more fans and way more pay than the CFL does.

[q12]

Originally Posted by Jstaleness

I'll agree on the second one to a certain extent. It will be a waste of money if all these studies and phases are charged to the tax payer for no gain. If the province and Feds don't chip in then it's up to a huge private purchaser. However I believe we have a strong case here. It can't be compared to Quebec's arena. The NHL expects more fans and way more pay than the CFL does.

The whole problem with it was the 3 phases. I should have been just 2 phases, the first determining cost, location and everything else and the 2nd to start construction.

[someone123]

I agree with beyeas' assessment.

I think leadership and education could overcome the problem because I don't think many people actually want what they ask for. A classic example of this is transit. You can find plenty of people bitching and moaning about how they have to pay for other people to take the bus for example. When there is a transit strike in a major city these people find that their commute becomes dramatically longer because the other people on the bus end up in cars on the road. Hmm!

A big percentage of the "anti-establishment" peninsula crowd are very much like this. We need funding for the arts! We need affordable housing! Many of these things may be good public expenditures but they must be supported by other economic activity. Many people just don't accept or aren't aware of this fact -- they seem to think we can have an economy of backyard root vegetables and maybe those little knitted caps they like to wear that would be even better than right now if it didn't have to waste so much money on evil rich people. They don't understand that they inhabit 2% of the overall economy. Sorry, but your feminist studies tuition is subsidized by the oil sands, clear cutting, maybe even seal clubbing.

[wespidel]

Let Halifax build a stadium smaller than the Metro Centre, that seems to be ok with some of the people on this site, that hasn`t got any vision. So enjoy your mickey mouse 10 thousand permanent seat stadium when you are at a Saint Marys univerisity football game because that is all you will get!

Anyway, keep promoting your mickey mosue stadium to be built in the largest city in Atlantic Canada, so the rest of the region and Canada can make fun of it!