Canucks Central

[cornholio]

Originally Posted by BodomReaper

Really? So in your ideal society; drunken, violent mobs would turn city centres upside-down every time a government introduces an unpopular policy? That doesn't sound like a place I want to live in.

Obviously not. Life is about balance. But once in a while a reminder of what civil disobedience is, is good, regardless of the reason. Once in a while does not mean all the time. Some changes canot happen through our system, plus for democracy to work the threat of such civil disobedience is good.

*And again never did i say that the riot wasnt pointless and that the people werent idiots, what I am talking about is a unintended side affect that is good.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

Regarding force:

And this means that any level of force (pretty much anything besides curb stomping someone in handcuffs) is allowed to keep the peace.

So getting nadded by a 'nade is totally cool with the law. Infact, after rolling around on the ground for a bit, he can end up in jail forever, no matter why he was there.

Based on the videos, the police showed an unbelievable amount of restraint. Far more than I would personally. In the US, the rioters would be beaten and bloodied, no doubt about it.

I hope it all works out in the end in the form of serious life consequences for these idiots.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by cornholio

I must be the only one that loves what happend last night. I find it great anytime people push the boundaries and show the power of the people, regardless if it is a stupid reason like last night.

In my eyes this is good for the city good for society and good for democracy. People always have to be confident in the power they have and know that they can use it.

*oh and im not saying it was a good reason for a riot, im just saying its good that a small riot happend, although not big but big enough to remind everyone of the power of the people and remind them of the most basic democratic way of achieving change.

What would be worse is a 100 years of no riot, no balls, and a neutered society, we would lose the ability and the confidence to stand up for our selves, we would become sheep. Last night was like a test, just to remind everyone that people still have power to stand up for themselves.

What the fuck are you talking about? Grow the fuck up.

[cornholio]

Originally Posted by BoiseAirport

There are plenty of examples in history of large groups of people rising up against their government, society or what have you, who do it civilly and achieve the results they desire. Doing it in the name of getting free loot is not positive in any way. What you're applauding is mass groups of people breaking laws, hurting other people, and stealing in their name of their own personal benefit. Such barbaric behavior has, whether you think fair or not, hurt the image of the city of Vancouver, and punishes the people who didn't do anything wrong, who take pride in their city, and those who financially will be impacted by the riots as a result of lost business.

I am sorry but I come from a former eastern block country, some change canot be achieved civilly, trust me.

What I am applauding is people showing that they can shut the city down, and display such a level of civil disobedience. Never did I applaud people getting hurt or losing business, even though that is part of civil disobedience. Rioting is the highest level of civil disobedience and its not pretty.

Also never did I say I support the idiots that caused this, nor that they shouldn't face the consequences. But the fact that it happend in my eyes is good, very good.

[Architype]

Originally Posted by cornholio

What I am applauding is people showing that they can shut the city down, and display such a level of civil disobedience. Never did I applaud people getting hurt or losing business, even though that is part of civil disobedience. Rioting is the highest level of civil disobedience and its not pretty.

Also never did I say I support the idiots that caused this, nor that they shouldn't face the consequences. But the fact that it happend in my eyes is good, very good.

UR kidding, we have better ways to express our views in Canada, and if there is a just cause for this, it might happen, but we don't have much of a reason for this to happen.

These idiots had no reason at all, and probably aren't capable of forming an intelligent thought.

Some people will do anything for attention, even if it means going to jail.

[cornholio]

You know I like to think outside of the box, I try to find the positives in places where people forget they exist. I like to see how the world works and how it flows. I prefer to understand something as opposed to blindly taking a side.

Obviously I am part of a minority, if everyone tried to analyze everything like I am trying to then we would never achieve anything.

[Prometheus]

Originally Posted by logan5

Running in and making arrests in the perceived initial moments of the riot would only serve to incite more destruction and violence, and possibly put police and civilians in danger.

Because that is what you would have done, right? If you were down at the viewing area and you saw police arresting a group of thugs burning someone's car or smashing store windows, you would have felt compelled to start committing acts of violence and destruction yourself?

[artvandelay]

This is the best video yet:
• Video Link

Really shows the mob mentality, and how many people were involved - and how many others stood there cheering, taking photos and enabling the rest of them. I don't think this thing can be pinned solely on a group of anarchists.

[Conrad]

Bored, aimless, morally retarded youth can be found in all walks of life. In other words, anyone can be an idiot.

[Prometheus]

Originally Posted by logan5

Containment is the best way to go in this situation.

Uh, but the police strategy did not succeed in containing anything. What we just witnessed was the worst, most widespread wave of violence and destruction in Vancouver history. It was the most horrific human event that the city has ever seen. Downtown came pretty close to burning to the ground. Clearly, whatever strategy the police used, it was a total failure.

But please don't stop. Your brilliant displays of logic are amusing.

[GeeCee]

For all the right reasons

06/15/2011 - A day that will go down in history for all the wrong reasons

I cried twice today.

I'm an eternal optimist, always have been, always will be, and never once did the thought of the Vancouver Canucks losing in the Stanley Cup Final cross my mind. Not once.

That made dealing with the inevitable hardship worlds more difficult; Thursday was truly a day of grieving and it got the best of me when I took a seat in Rogers Arena for an all-staff meeting just before lunch. They were tears of disappointment and exhaustion.

I wanted to be so hungover Thursday that my headache had a migraine, instead I spent the bulk of the day sitting in my office playing out different what-if scenarios in my head. Then I was asked to head downtown to the scene of the unthinkable riots to talk to some people who were apparently spearheading a cleanup effort.

Great, I thought, a few people will be picking up trash, it'll be the equivalent of fighting a rhinoceros with a cocktail sword.

Then I got to the heart of the city.

And I cried again. They were tears of pride.

http://canucks.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=566199

[cornholio]

Originally Posted by Prometheus

Uh, but the police strategy did not succeed in containing anything. What we just witnessed was the worst, most widespread wave of violence and destruction in Vancouver history. It was the most horrific human event that the city has ever seen. Downtown came pretty close to burning to the ground. Clearly, whatever strategy the police used, it was a total failure.

But please don't stop. Your brilliant displays of logic are amusing.

17 cars burned down, some damage and broken glass, couple stores looted and 50 people hurt. Very little damage and your saying the city almost burned down? There was less damage caused then the revenue generated of one of those games, maybe less than the taxes collected of the ticket sales for that one game. Oh and lets not talk about the money these people spent that day downtown, the millions of dollars. There were a couple cars burned, few windows broken and some looting, not a wave of destruction like you are implying.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Prometheus

Uh, but the police strategy did not succeed in containing anything. What we just witnessed was the worst, most widespread wave of violence and destruction in Vancouver history. It was the most horrific human event that the city has ever seen. Downtown came pretty close to burning to the ground. Clearly, whatever strategy the police used, it was a total failure.

But please don't stop. Your brilliant displays of logic are amusing.

Over-exaggerate much? Some cars burned, and they cause a lot of smoke for the amount of material that burns. Were any buildings on fire? At all?

It looked like the police strategy was to let people make a mess that could be cleaned up. They just didn't have the numbers to do much more. There was no loss of life, and no police brutality. Although as mentioned above based on the riot act, they could literally club everyone they walked by that didn't get out of the way faster than their walking speed.

I'm sure they had targeted areas to protect, namely residential ones.

City Council should have given them the bigger budget they asked for, although I'm not sure ~50% more police would have done much better.

[Prometheus]

Originally Posted by cornholio

I must be the only one that loves what happend last night. I find it great anytime people push the boundaries and show the power of the people, regardless if it is a stupid reason like last night.

In my eyes this is good for the city good for society and good for democracy.

I would call you a total loser. But I don't think there is any need to.

[Overground]

cornholio I think I know where you're coming from but if rioting in your eyes is a warranted level of civil disobedience, even for such a silly thing as a sporting result, then what level of violence do you draw a line to what is acceptable for that disobedience, and how is that level managed if it's an anarchic situation? Is the burning of a low income person's car or punching a pregnant lady a sufficient level? Rape or murder?

Do you see what I'm getting at? As soon as violence against the very individual citizens this civil disobedience is somehow supposed to benefit, it loses all validity. A responsible civilised society doesn't need to pass the threshold on the level of violent rioting to test our democracy.

We already know what western society is capable of in terms of pushing the boundaries because there is plenty of riotous events in the past for example to prove the point. Protesting should be the only form of disobedience in my opinion in a functioning successful democracy like Canada. Call me old fashioned.

[zivan56]

While I was disgusted by what I saw in Downtown, I started laughing when I heard about the riot act being read. Just reading it is a joke...it wouldn't hold up in any modern court of law. It sounds like it is superseded by the magna carta, let alone the 1982 constitution. The likelyhood of anybody being charged under it, let alone being convicted, is zero to none.

[logan5]

Originally Posted by Prometheus

Because that is what you would have done, right? If you were down at the viewing area and you saw police arresting a group of thugs burning someone's car or smashing store windows, you would have felt compelled to start committing acts of violence and destruction yourself?

A young guy in his late teens/early twenties and even beyond, is extremely susceptible to mob mentality due to their emotional immaturity. And alcohol only makes it worse. I honestly think these guys have no control over themselves, almost like some kind of aggression drug. I'm willing to bet a lot of these young guys are normally good kids who got caught up in the mob mentality. I've felt this mob mind to a certain degree myself when I was younger and it's a lot more powerful than most people realize. I honestly don't know how I would have reacted as a young person in the same situation. I can tell you this. That powerful mob mentality was brewing all game long in that huge crowd in the streets of Vancouver.

Originally Posted by Prometheus

Uh, but the police strategy did not succeed in containing anything. .

I believe by laying back and not engaging too closely, the mob eventually ran out of energy. While there was property damage, the physical violence, considering the size of the mob was kept to a minimum. Sacrificing property is more acceptable than the police having a more pro active role and possibly escalating the violence.

[Prometheus]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Over-exaggerate much? Were any buildings on fire? At all?

It's no exaggeration, at least for those who are following events with open eyes. I guessed you missed the live coverage which showed that the Hudson Bay's awning was beginning to catch fire from one of those burning cars and the building itself was that close to going up in smoke. The CTV reporter on the scene kept expressing extreme concern that the building was on the brink of catching fire. Since the police had no part in it, it's mere dumb luck that the crowd cleared when it finally did and the firefighters were able to put the burning car and smoldering awning out in time.

Is the Chief of Police your brother-in-law or something?

[mr.x]

I don't really post that much here these days, but I'll share briefly my experience....I don't know about all of you, but I really didn't see this coming. I thought we had moved way past 1994, and of course, we also had the Olympics. If you saw images on tv of people climbing up the traffic light post, I was about 20 metres east of that on West Georgia, and others were climbing trees. It was like watching the 1994 videos all over again, that's how it began exactly. You could feel a riot brewing even when the third period began, people were becoming agitated. Me and my friends started to leave 8 minutes before the game ended, and by the 2 minute mark we made it to the rear of the already leaving crowd.

We heard explosions, what sounded like fireworks and firecrackers. We looked back while standing in front of the BMO and in the distance, the tv screen went dark and there was some smoke -- possibly from the burning bear, I don't think they hadn't blown up the car yet. A fight in front of the toilets near Homer broke out. When we walked to Seymour, and there were many other friendlies sensing the ugliness about to happen, there were like a dozen officers holding cameras and walking towards what would be ground zero. When we got to TD Tower/Howe, I looked up and saw a RCMP helicopter hovering directly above me as if it were surveying something. We got to Burrard Street at around 8.15 and had dinner there, we didn't think it would get THAT bad.

To keep it short...like many of you, there are few words that can express my sadness. I've come to this forum to discuss how we can keep improving this city. For much of yesterday and that evening, I lost all hope in this city. But seeing all those volunteers still working at 3 pm, and what's like tens of thousands of messages on the boarded up windows in the area....that was truly inspiring.

Where do we go from here? We recovered from all of this last time, but it took us nearly 17 years and a lot of money (a.k.a. the Olympics). I personally don't have that patience. Most likely, we're going to crawl back into becoming the No-Fun-City that we are. In so many ways, we just aren't capable of it. The "No-Fun" Millennium Celebration at Science World on December 31, 1999 was a legacy of 1994.

It'll be interesting to see how we'll deal with Vancouver 125 at Stanley Park next month, the Celebration of Light, and November's Grey Cup.

Adios, Vancouver.

[Locked In]

Originally Posted by zivan56

While I was disgusted by what I saw in Downtown, I started laughing when I heard about the riot act being read. Just reading it is a joke...it wouldn't hold up in any modern court of law. It sounds like it is superseded by the magna carta, let alone the 1982 constitution. The likelyhood of anybody being charged under it, let alone being convicted, is zero to none.

They're not actually reading the Riot Act - as pointed out a few pages back, equivalent provisions are all contained in the criminal code...