Millennium Line - Evergreen Extension | Completed

[logan5]

Originally Posted by awvan

Everyone should contribute equally...

edit: Personally I'd like to re-open re-examine the contracts with the union and slash some of the benefits transit workers get. I'd also freeze wages. The number of holidays and bankable sick days they receive is disgusting (although somewhat in line with other public sector unions, all of which are disgusting), and I think they are overpaid, but I would stop short of cutting wages. Obviously all of this (or any for that matter) would be extremely unpopular, but the whole system is broken, something drastic needs to change.

Punishing blue collar union workers doesn't sound fair and equal. Where's your anger towards these multi billion dollar corporations who are taxed at the same rate as bus driver.

Just out of curiosity, what wage would you give to a bus driver?

[geoff's two cents]

Originally Posted by awvan

I know this probably isn't a popular idea (here or elsewhere) but how about making transit users pay more? Yes yes, I know many will feel like it's too expensive already, but it's been over 3 years since the last fare hike (January 1st, 2008) and gas prices are quite a bit more expensive than they were then. What portion of Translink's costs is eaten by petrol/diesel costs? It has to be one of the largest after salary. How about increasing fares by a quarter, or 50 cents, or by some number in conjunction with a smaller increase in property taxes or something.

Any solution is likely to be unpopular, how about small increases across the board? Everyone should contribute equally, it doesn't make sense to make homeowners and car owners to shoulder all of the increase themselves. It's not very fair, and it definitely isn't a vote-getter.

edit: Personally I'd like to re-open re-examine the contracts with the union and slash some of the benefits transit workers get. I'd also freeze wages. The number of holidays and bankable sick days they receive is disgusting (although somewhat in line with other public sector unions, all of which are disgusting), and I think they are overpaid, but I would stop short of cutting wages. Obviously all of this (or any for that matter) would be extremely unpopular, but the whole system is broken, something drastic needs to change.

And before people start bringing up politicians wages, or executives of BC Ferrys or any of that, I think they're all overpaid and have far too many benefits. I'd cut compensation packages for all public sector (and subsidized private sector) employees. Oh, and let CUPW rot. I may have digressed here a bit...

Not sure about the public transit workers (I think the TTC union is far more powerful than anything we have out here), but I'd be open to substantially increasing the cost of the U-Pass as well. As for the transit fee increase, I'd be open to it if it were incremental and went hand-in-hand with tangible, large-scale improvements.

[racc]

Originally Posted by awvan

I know this probably isn't a popular idea (here or elsewhere) but how about making transit users pay more? Yes yes, I know many will feel like it's too expensive already, but it's been over 3 years since the last fare hike (January 1st, 2008) and gas prices are quite a bit more expensive than they were then. What portion of Translink's costs is eaten by petrol/diesel costs? It has to be one of the largest after salary. How about increasing fares by a quarter, or 50 cents, or by some number in conjunction with a smaller increase in property taxes or something.

Not too much point. After investing billions of public dollars, then discourage people from using transit by raising fares. Not a great strategy. There will be more cars on the road creating congestion for those who must or want to drive. There might also be more demand for expensive highway projects further increasing the cost of transportation.

By decreasing ridership, revenue won't increase by that much either.

Meanwhile, road pricing encourages people to use transit increasing ridership revenue. With few cars on the road, buses can get around faster providing better service at a lower cost further increasing transit revenues.

Road pricing will help reduce overall transportation costs for the region. Since we don't produce automobiles or gas in the region, more money will stay in the local economy and create more jobs. Pretty much a win-win for everyone.

[Metro-One]

it will also free up the roads for commercial traffic.

But I would like such road pricing to be implemented where at the end of the year those with low incomes do get some form of a rebate. Simply i don't like taxes that punish the lower income far more than the rich.

And such tolls should only be implemented on expressways, freeways and other controlled access arteries.

[bardak]

Originally Posted by awvan

I know this probably isn't a popular idea (here or elsewhere) but how about making transit users pay more? Yes yes, I know many will feel like it's too expensive already, but it's been over 3 years since the last fare hike (January 1st, 2008)

The last cash fare increase was in 2008 but faresaver tickets and monthly passes did go up in 2010. That being said I'm not a fan of more gas tax. It not the most stable funding source especially since it is not proportionality.

Personally I wouldn't mind an increase in in fares if it was also tied to bridge tolls and making the translink gas tax proportional. Add on to this a increase in property tax and you might be able to create a comprehensive plan to replace our aging road infrastructure and build the proposed rapid transit line at a faster than glacial pace

[wrenegade]

@ Geoff, YES to increasing the cost of the U-Pass. I cannot believe how cheap they get it. Unfortunately their rates are locked in for another couple years under the current contract.

@Logan5, I don't know what wage I would give a bus driver, I'd like to see their wages frozen and see their holiday/bankable sick day benefits reduced. I think bankable sick days are ridiculous no matter who you work for. I don't understand the question about anger towards taxation of multi-billion dollar corporations vs. bus drivers. You're comparing corporate tax rates to income tax rates? Apples and Oranges.

@racc, Would increasings the cost of a one zone ticket to $2.75 or a two zone to $4.00 really discourage ridership? Or even by another 25 cents? I would like to see monthly passes remain at the same rate and see the casual transit user accept more of the costs. I don't use transit that often, when I go to the Seabus to go downtown the difference between $4 and $3.75 is nothing. I totally understand there would be a difference between say $110 for a monthly pass and $125. In the end though it's unrealistic to assume that only drivers can accept the increases in costs and for some people transit just doesn't work. I can drive to work in under 10 minutes and park for free. It would take 20-25 minutes on the bus. Why would I do that? On the other hand, when I worked downtown the time difference taking transit was negligible but I did often balk at the price for a monthly pass. There are some places you can park downtown for just over $110 a month, raising the transit passes closer to that number and you will have people leaving transit.

In relation to the evergreen line though, being able to go from Coquitlam Centre to downtown Vancouver for $10 return is pretty damn cheap. I'd consider $11-12 cheap.

This discussion has seriously gotten off track though. Small fare increases will really only be able to maintain or slightly increase Translink's current services. Major capital improvements need much more drastic funding solutions.

[tybuilding]

Originally Posted by awvan

I know this probably isn't a popular idea (here or elsewhere) but how about making transit users pay more? Yes yes, I know many will feel like it's too expensive already, but it's been over 3 years since the last fare hike (January 1st, 2008) and gas prices are quite a bit more expensive than they were then. What portion of Translink's costs is eaten by petrol/diesel costs? It has to be one of the largest after salary. How about increasing fares by a quarter, or 50 cents, or by some number in conjunction with a smaller increase in property taxes or something.

Monthly passes increased last year, so transit fares have gone up.

[huenthar]

What about doing what Honolulu's doing - add a 0.5% transit tax to the sales tax? Or better yet, since they now seem to want to reduce the provincial tax rate, how about reduce it by 0.5% instead of 1% and keep the other 0.5% for transit?

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by huenthar

What about doing what Honolulu's doing - add a 0.5% transit tax to the sales tax? Or better yet, since they now seem to want to reduce the provincial tax rate, how about reduce it by 0.5% instead of 1% and keep the other 0.5% for transit?

The problem with any form of province-wide taxation for transit is the lack of service in almost any region outside of Metro Vancouver. You can make all kinds of arguments, but really the people and businesses in Metro Van should be paying for Translink.

[Jebby]

Originally Posted by logan5

Punishing blue collar union workers doesn't sound fair and equal. Where's your anger towards these multi billion dollar corporations who are taxed at the same rate as bus driver.

Wanting to tax corporations at the same rate as individuals, and even taxing corporate income at all, seems to me to be one of the most idiotic ideas ever. Corporations in reality don't pay taxes, they simply become a cost of doing business and if you raise them, the increased costs simply pass on to the consumer in the form of higher prices. Not to mention a corporation can't enjoy and spend profits like a person, it can't go on a vacation or drive a Ferrari...furthermore, corporate earnings are already taxed when they pay profits out to real people in the form of income and capital gains taxes. It's double taxing the same money to tax corporate earnings, and it's poor economic policy. Why would you tax a company for profits that stay inside the company and are used to create more jobs?

[Jebby]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

The problem with any form of province-wide taxation for transit is the lack of service in almost any region outside of Metro Vancouver. You can make all kinds of arguments, but really the people and businesses in Metro Van should be paying for Translink.

Well all the sales tax collected outside of metro Vancouver can go to BC Transit or whatever transit authority services that municipality/region where the tax is paid. Problem solved.

[logan5]

Why would you tax a company for profits that stay inside the company and are used to create more jobs?

Lower corporate tax rates = outsourcing jobs? How can that be?

[huenthar]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

The problem with any form of province-wide taxation for transit is the lack of service in almost any region outside of Metro Vancouver. You can make all kinds of arguments, but really the people and businesses in Metro Van should be paying for Translink.

Not province-wide. City-region wide. I don't know exactly how Honolulu implements this but this is what they are doing - the added sales tax isn't state-wide, it's local.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by huenthar

Not province-wide. City-region wide. I don't know exactly how Honolulu implements this but this is what they are doing - the added sales tax isn't state-wide, it's local.

US Cities in some states have the power to impose sales taxes; Canadian cities don't.

[DKaz]

What about... Evergreen Line license plates? I'll pay $100 a year for one. You'll need about a million people to commit to one for four years to make up $400 mil though.

[twoNeurons]

What about using the Carbon tax. The Provincial government has paid (in part) for every line in this city which is a major income generator for the province.

Why is this line different?

[city-dweller]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

US Cities in some states have the power to impose sales taxes; Canadian cities don't.

That isn't entirely true. Depends on the province. Under the Canadian Constitution The Feds and the provinces have all the powers. Provinces delegate cities and communities their power. In B.C. The Vancouver Charter allows the City of Vancouver to have fees and other "tax"-like bylaws. The rest of the province is under Local Government Act (1996) and The Community Charter (2003) and can not.

I believe Metro Toronto or City of Toronto may have similiar powers. I am not familiar with Ontario's municipal legislation.

[GeeCee]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

What about using the Carbon tax. The Provincial government has paid (in part) for every line in this city which is a major income generator for the province.

Why is this line different?

The province has already committed 1/3 of the cost ($400m), with the federal government kicking in another third. The remaining amount is up to Translink/Metro Vancouver.

The provincial government is refusing to kick in any of the existing carbon tax to pay for transit/Evergreen. There are a few posts about this in the main transit thread, but here's the article: http://www.bclocalnews.com/tri_city_maple_ridge/tricitynews/news/122912488.html

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by city-dweller

In B.C. The Vancouver Charter allows the City of Vancouver to have fees and other "tax"-like bylaws.

That's true for certain special classes of tax such as the tax on parking spaces. But to the best of my knowledge it doesn't permit Vancouver to levy a retail sales tax such as many cities in the US have done.

[cornholio]

Originally Posted by racc

Not too much point. After investing billions of public dollars, then discourage people from using transit by raising fares. Not a great strategy. There will be more cars on the road creating congestion for those who must or want to drive. There might also be more demand for expensive highway projects further increasing the cost of transportation.

By decreasing ridership, revenue won't increase by that much either.

Meanwhile, road pricing encourages people to use transit increasing ridership revenue. With few cars on the road, buses can get around faster providing better service at a lower cost further increasing transit revenues.

Road pricing will help reduce overall transportation costs for the region. Since we don't produce automobiles or gas in the region, more money will stay in the local economy and create more jobs. Pretty much a win-win for everyone.

With all due respect our world is all about competing with other regions. What you are suggesting would lower the productivity of the entire region and handicap our competitiveness on a global scale.

Nothing comes free.

By the way I am for more transit but I also do realize that transit is a luxury and not a necessity, its not efficient, its a extremely risky investment and it allows no flexibility. Having said that it allows new neighborhoods to develop that otherwise wouldn't, like always im sure its a good thing to have variety and different city forms to promote different life styles and social interactions. After all cities are the engines of humanity.

I think the only point im trying to make is that there's always two sides to every coin, in the end our goal should be to achieve balance. There is a limit to how much can be invested in to transit and taxed from the people.