Calgary Public Transit II

[MalcolmTucker]

Yeah, you're going to have to bore to get up the hill if the goal is to tie into the SE LRT as currently conceived, until the most cost efficient point to no longer do so and switch either to cut and cover, or immediately to elevated.

[Stang]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

Yeah, you're going to have to bore to get up the hill if the goal is to tie into the SE LRT as currently conceived, until the most cost efficient point to no longer do so and switch either to cut and cover, or immediately to elevated.

Can the tunnel be bored below the river (at a reasonable depth and/or cost)? Rather than going tunnel-bridge-tunnel, perhaps an option exists to stay underground through downtown (and the then-complete SE LRT), under the river, up the hill, and eventually seeing daylight somewhere where Centre levels out. It might be more efficient to build a long tunnel than a shorter one and a bridge. Realistically there would be no need for a station between downtown and where Centre levels out, so it would be a "simple" tunnel. Of course, I know nothing about the geology there and whether it would even be suited for it.

[You Need A Thneed]

The other option would be to transition from underground to elevated on the south side of the river, and carry the LRT across the river on a bridge.

Perhaps, like the spiral tunnels in Yoho National Park, we could get a spiral bridge.

[polishavenger]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

Yeah, you're going to have to bore to get up the hill if the goal is to tie into the SE LRT as currently conceived, until the most cost efficient point to no longer do so and switch either to cut and cover, or immediately to elevated.

The more I think about the Center street alignment the more I think elevated would work in most segments due to the relatively narrow profile of the support columns. Coming out of DT you obviously need the tunnel to about 16th Ave, at which point it can go elevated along the east side of center street. The segment from 16th ave to 28th ave could probably get away without expropriating all the properties as most could continue to operate during and after the construction of an elevated guide away along the property lines. You just need to buy out any houses as nobody wants to live under guideway. After 28th, they should tunnel under to align the line with 4th street, coming out at James Fowler High School. At this point the elevated guideway would follow 4th street on the west side until just south of the huntington super store. It would then cross over to the east side, then meet up with center street and contiue in the median until beddington, where it would cross over to the west side after the mall, and then head north at grade after bergen rd. Stations could be at the center street Safeway, 29th Ave and Center, 4th and 40th Ave, Northmount drive and Center, 72nd and center, and then at bergen rd and center. There would be lots of land to buy, but with 20 years to do it, shouldnt be too difficult.

[MalcolmTucker]

A tunnel under the water table near the river, and a tunnel under the river I would guess is just a matter of degrees for water penetration issue mitigation. Shouldn't be any issues - down between the zoo and weir they built a sewer tunnel and shiphon under the river a couple years ago me thinks.

[Bassic Lab]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

A tunnel under the water table near the river, and a tunnel under the river I would guess is just a matter of degrees for water penetration issue mitigation. Shouldn't be any issues - down between the zoo and weir they built a sewer tunnel and shiphon under the river a couple years ago me thinks.

The project shouldn't be any more complicated than the North Shore Connector under construction in Pittsburgh. The Allegheny River makes the Bow look like small creek. That said, really the NLRT could be remarkably similar to the Canada Line. Beddington Trail is only a little further from the start than Marine Drive. There would need to be an initial bored tunnel to cross a water feature, the Bow and False Creek. Really if we decided to put a spur down 96 Ave to the Airport it would be essentially the same project. I would prefer longer stations but I think it is quite comparable.

[The Chemist]

If they can build subway tunnels under the Huangpu River in Shanghai, with Shanghai's mud and being right at sea level, they can build a subway tunnel under the Bow River in Calgary.

[fusili]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

Yeah, you're going to have to bore to get up the hill if the goal is to tie into the SE LRT as currently conceived, until the most cost efficient point to no longer do so and switch either to cut and cover, or immediately to elevated.

I like that idea. Go elevated right after 16th avenue.

[DarkKeyo]

I've only just caught up on this discussion, and that really big map, which I could comment on endlessly.

Right now I like the idea of bored tunnel until 16th, elevated until 64th, at-grade the rest of the way except for elevated over Beddington Trail.

I'll be at the open house tomorrow around 6-6:30.

[DizzyEdge]

Originally Posted by DarkKeyo

I've only just caught up on this discussion, and that really big map, which I could comment on endlessly.

Right now I like the idea of bored tunnel until 16th, elevated until 64th, at-grade the rest of the way except for elevated over Beddington Trail.

I'll be at the open house tomorrow around 6-6:30.

That was the point

The things which I couldn't wrap my head around as far as cost-benefit were:

- underground downtown and then elevated up and over the river and bluff then underground to 16th VS undergroup to 16th

- elevated around centre/1st st from 16th VS at grade (about half that distance is park space

- elevated north of 64th VS at grade (until you get close to Beddington, an at grade would only affect about 3 intersections)

[DarkKeyo]

Originally Posted by DizzyEdge

That was the point

The things which I couldn't wrap my head around as far as cost-benefit were:

- underground downtown and then elevated up and over the river and bluff then underground to 16th VS undergroup to 16th

- elevated around centre/1st st from 16th VS at grade (about half that distance is park space

- elevated north of 64th VS at grade (until you get close to Beddington, an at grade would only affect about 3 intersections)

- I don't see the need to surface anywhere between Downtown and 16th, other than it might help with the supposedly very complex-to-tunnel hill just north of the river.

- Park space is not somewhere people would accept elevated or at-grade trains. People will choose to spend more on a route along Centre St rather than plow through parks, schools, and community centres as shown on your map.

- I agree that at-grade between 64 Av and Beddington Town Centre makes more sense.

[You Need A Thneed]

Calgary Herald Poll right now:

Where should a north-central C-Train line be built?

Nose Creek Valley - 19%
Edmonton Trail - 26%
Centre Street - 55%

[kw5150]

from:

http://www.calgaryherald.com/City+launch...central+route+options/4828196/story.html

Shazam999
3:52 PM on May 24, 2011

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@anon733879405,

The Scenic Acres station is screwed up because so many Scenic Acres residents complained about the original plan that they revised to for "traffic calming".
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Shazam999
3:51 PM on May 24, 2011

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@S_Butler

The SE did not vote for Nenshi. Strangely enough talk about the SE LRT seems to have died off. Now we have talk about the NLRT line. The NW was basically responsible for voting Nenshi in. Remember how Nenshi said in his campaign "I don't understand why Tuscany/Royal Oak is getting a train station", and now all that talk has disappeared as well?

Do I need to break out the hand puppets next? Does patronage not exist in your political understanding?

And if you know where house prices are going to be 20 years from now, please share.
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anon733879405
2:50 PM on May 24, 2011

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Will it be like the Scenic Acres LRT station in the NW? You know, the one that has no access for cars from Scenic Acres? The one that people don't use since even though it's close it's too far to walk and takes too long to bus? The one where you have to leave the district and drive around - and by that time you might as well just drive to work? I know the fear is evil Tuscany residents will cut through Scenic Acres because of the huge design mistakes made on the road designs and interchanges. I just hope the city learned something - but I'm sure they haven't.
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anon733879405
2:47 PM on May 24, 2011

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How about a little focus on fixing roads? Billion dollar LRT lines are all fine and dandy, but many of our main roads are in urgent need of upgrading. Why city council can find money out of the blue for pet projects, yet ignore LRT and road lines for decades astounds me. We don't need a $300M+ airport tunnel ever, or $50M pedestrian bridges, when we ignore needed bridges and roads elsewhere.
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yycvor
1:26 PM on May 24, 2011

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BTW, option 1 is already somewhat in progress, with the airport trail 96th ave extenstion, they are already building two seperate over rail bridges side by side, about 100 feet apart for a single exisiting CP rail line. Seems obvious that option 1 is already being accomidated for.
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yycvor
1:23 PM on May 24, 2011

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20 yrs is a good time frame, the younger and greener generation is starting to take over the country hills, panorama, country hills, harvest hills area. A large number of people who built in that area have since had their kids grow up, plenty are moving away and is piles of younger couples buying in that area. 20 years is just the right time frame for a second generation of children and parents from that area to utilize the LRT. Im your typical and mostly hated single occupant driving a truck subburb commuter, I would take the LRT daily if I had a choice. More people employed downtown living in the NW then the NE I can guarrentee you that.
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S_ Butler
12:25 PM on May 24, 2011

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Also, a plan IS needed 20 yrs before as that gives more time buy up properties as they come up for sale rather than expropriation.



Read more: http://www.calgaryherald.com/City+launch...options/4828196/story.html#ixzz1NNXhVy00

[Stang]

Originally Posted by You Need A Thneed

Calgary Herald Poll right now:

Where should a north-central C-Train line be built?

Nose Creek Valley - 19%
Edmonton Trail - 26%
Centre Street - 55%

^ This is encouraging. Hopefully these sentiments are also being expressed at the open houses.

When compared with every other LRT line (or proposed line) in the city, the NC LRT up Nose Creek would be the only one that largely avoids the key ingredient of its success: passengers. I'd rather see a slightly shorter line initially (Downtown to Beddington, for example) that runs down/near Centre, than a line to the Northern tip of the city that runs down Nose Creek. The net benefit to the city would be greater with a more useful but shorter line. The ROW exists North of Beddington anyway, so an extension would be relatively easy after the fact.

[You Need A Thneed]

I read those Herald comments as well. It's pretty hilarious the ideas people come up with even when the actual answers are pretty easy to find simply by looking at the city's website.

The SE did not vote for Nenshi. Strangely enough talk about the SE LRT seems to have died off. Now we have talk about the NLRT line. The NW was basically responsible for voting Nenshi in. Remember how Nenshi said in his campaign "I don't understand why Tuscany/Royal Oak is getting a train station", and now all that talk has disappeared as well?

Nenshi has talked about the SE line a lot. He's trying as hard to get it done as he is the airport tunnel, I would think. The tunnel is just more urgent at this point. Also, a simple check on the city's website would show that the Tuscany station hasn't been forgotten about.

Will it be like the Scenic Acres LRT station in the NW? You know, the one that has no access for cars from Scenic Acres? The one that people don't use since even though it's close it's too far to walk and takes too long to bus? The one where you have to leave the district and drive around - and by that time you might as well just drive to work? I know the fear is evil Tuscany residents will cut through Scenic Acres because of the huge design mistakes made on the road designs and interchanges. I just hope the city learned something - but I'm sure they haven't.

Scenic Acres got just what it asked for.

How about a little focus on fixing roads? Billion dollar LRT lines are all fine and dandy, but many of our main roads are in urgent need of upgrading. Why city council can find money out of the blue for pet projects, yet ignore LRT and road lines for decades astounds me. We don't need a $300M+ airport tunnel ever, or $50M pedestrian bridges, when we ignore needed bridges and roads elsewhere.

You do realize that this line is ~20 years away, right? Also the self contradiction is just wonderful. First he complains about LRT focus instead of roads, and then later complains about the city ignoring the LRT. I won't even get into the comments about the tunnel or the ped bridges.

BTW, option 1 is already somewhat in progress, with the airport trail 96th ave extenstion, they are already building two seperate over rail bridges side by side, about 100 feet apart for a single exisiting CP rail line. Seems obvious that option 1 is already being accomidated for.

No, option 1 is not being accounted for with the bridges you are talking about. One bridge goes over the CP rail line, and the other bridge goes over Nose Creek. If he was so sharp, you would also realize that the nose creek alignment curves over towards Harvest Hills Blvd before it gets to 96th Ave. So, even if the Nose creek alignment is used, NEITHER of those bridges will go over the LRT.

[DizzyEdge]

I comment on those pages almost daily

[freeweed]

Quite frankly the comments about the "Scenic Acres" station (chuckle) are bang-on. It was a stupid design that should never have happened.

I also have my suspicions that the Tuscany station might suddenly be delayed indefinitely, as the city scrambles to find money for the airport tunnel. They're hinting very strongly at pillaging other long-on-the-books infrastructure projects in order to fund this thing.

To be honest this may be the most coherent sampling of news article comments I've ever read. Usually they're mindless political rants by the uneducated and/or unemployed and/or unsober. Same crowd that calls into sports radio shows.

[kw5150]

I just hope this city can agree and get something done whatever it is.

I think that the constant bickering that we see on these comment pages is a symptom of greedy politicians trying to divide the people in the city for their own good. Calgary needs to work on unifying itself in order to acheive a clear vision that all of it's citizens will benefit from.

I dont think Larger roads will solve any of the issues in Calgary and Im not sure who has been feeding people that information. It takes many departments to create a successful city. I do agree with a couple of the comments I read but mostly that the city seems to be ignoring the roads we already have (in terms of upgrading to interchages). The only thing is, people need to realize that it is hard to keep updating existing roads with the monetary demands of suburban sprawl.

[outoftheice]

Originally Posted by polishavenger

What astounds me about the comment from Neil Mckendrick is the fact that you are building infrastructure that will be in place for 100 years and hes concerned about a 2 year disruption? How ridiculous is that? Not only is this another transportation option for the central part of the city, this LRT line has the potential to substantially transform the urban form of the city. If you run it up the Nose Creek alignment, you will not get any additional development and density, and I doubt ridership will be as high as the other options. If you spend the extra time and money now running the LRT up center street, you will have a top notch LRT line in terms of functionality, and you create the potential to densify that corridor and create a high quality urban street. I dont understand how there could be any real debate here. Short term thinking in context of long term decision making drives me nuts.

I agree 100% The other thing that annoys me is that he is framing the construction head-aches of the West LRT in a negative light when it seems like the average Calgarian doesn't even see it that way. Most people seem to be able to take the long view when it comes to this type of planning and I think the West LRT (once the City started trying harder at addressing community concerns in the planning stages) has shown people how a program of this size can be managed for the long term benefit of everybody. For example:

...the news doesn't seem to bother area residents, who appear to be have accepted the traffic jams, dirt and disrup-tive din as part of life in the west end.

"It's short-term pain for longterm gain," said Paul Langille, who uses 17th Avenue every day to commute downtown from his home in Signal Hill.

or

Dan Jeffrey and Paul Knibbs, who live in Christie Park overlooking the future Sirocco station, are also fine with the increased construction in their area.

"Overall, construction on the project has been pretty good," Jeffrey said.

Neither works downtown and both say they hardly ever hear work being done when they're home.

or

Shelley Keane, owner of Cobblestone Corner in West Market Square, said she doesn't mind the noise or dust but is bracing herself for any further road closures in her area.

For two weekends in March, there were closures that prevented motorists from reaching the Sirocco Drive strip mall where her gift store is located.

"It was hard on all of us. Sales were terrible," she said.

"In the long term, it will be better. We just have to get through the tough times."

All from this article in the Calgary Herald:

Work on West LRT ready to heat up
Residents brace for dust and noise
By Clara Ho, Calgary Herald

Read more: http://www.calgaryherald.com/Work+West+ready+heat/4668351/story.html#ixzz1NOlkWOdl

The above quotes should have been reflective of the City's position towards digging up Centre Street for the NC-LRT but instead we got a doom and gloom type line. If the people in the City's transportation department don't believe the pain is worth the gain, can we really hope to see changes in the NC LRT alignment?

[DarkKeyo]

My first observation about the NCLRT open house today is travelling there, on the 301, in the height of rush hour. The sheer amount of people cramming themselves onto the 301, 3, 2, and 5, which go by the stops quite often dependant on traffic lights....