Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by city-dweller

Has anyone looked at how the options being considered affect the City of Vancouver's long term "street car" plan?

Here is the link:
http://vancouver.ca/engsvcs/transport/streetcar/index.htm

The LRT options would definately interfere on some level with the City of Vancouver's plans seeing as both use the ROW by False Creek. But they could also be one and the same. The LRT plans show about the same number of stations as the Streetcar plans show between Main Street and Granville Island.

So you could transform the LRT options into the Vancouver Streetcar, and extend the LRT options past the Main Street station, through China town and Gastown to Waterfront Station and even out to Stanley Park. Through there it can run more like Streetcar because the trains are providing local connections. Then once the tracks hit Boradway, turn it more into LRT style operations with further spaced stops.

Either proposal would likely use something Bombardier Flexity like, with low floors, which can serve as either LRT or Streetcar vehicles.

Originally Posted by Zassk

I think we can all agree that, in the ideal case, the Vancouver Streetcar would be built west from Granville Island along the old right-of-way, terminating at the Millennium Line station at Arbutus. This would connect the population/businesses around 4th & Burrard with the rapid transit network and add further ridership. And it would position the streetcar for a future extension down Arbutus if that ever became feasible.

I think that would be the ideal case. Even if the RRT and BRT combo is chosen, having the Vancouver streetcar project intersect at the Arbutus station would provide an amazing connection for riders from Vancouver West to places like Granville Island, "The Village" and Science World.

I really think Vancouver should push the streetcar project ahead and build it as quickly as possible, before the Broadway project moves forward. It would show the effects of on street rail to the population, so they can better judge the effects it would have on a busy road like Broadway. If LRT is deemed the choice for Broadway, then it can be extended and shifted from Streetcar to LRT operations.

But I'm shocked that the green striving city council has dropped the ball on the streetcar. That project went from a public perception of being a complete waste of $10 million to being a smashing success that everyone had to ride, literally overnight. It had momentum and right after the demonstration concluded, and the city dropped it. It should be a major part of the greenest city initiative. I don't see how Vancouver CAN be the greenest city without more sustainable public transit around downtown.

[logan5]

I agree that combo 1 gives you more bang for your buck, and also provides a starting point for a city wide tram system.

I wonder about Translinks figures on the light rail option though. A 13 km light rail line at 1.1 billion works out to 85 million/km. The figures for Toronto's Transit City come out to 50-60 million/km, (excluding the underground portion on Eglinton) and that's with street widening, more stations, and underground connections at subway stations.

I'm not advocating for light rail on Central Broadway, I'm just curious how they came up with those numbers.

In any event, I hope this all happens sooner rather than later. I personally cannot wait till I can get on my subway station at Broadway and Main.

[nname]

Originally Posted by logan5

The figures for Toronto's Transit City come out to 50-60 million/km, (excluding the underground portion on Eglinton) and that's with street widening, more stations, and underground connections at subway stations.

I think the final cost estimate for at-grade portion of TransitCity increased to 90-100 millions/km before it got cancelled... And for underground portion? A whopping 350 millions/km...

One main problem for option 1 I found is.. it pretty much prevent any furthur expansion of SkyTrain toward UBC, which I think would be needed sooner or later...

[SFUVancouver]

I'm also in the 'RRT to UBC' as choice #1, 'Combo 1' as choice #2. The combo option with LRT to UBC starting at Main Street-Science World would finally bring good transit to Granville Island, which would be a huge boon for the city, and as other have said it would allow the downtown streetcar to proceed since it would be the downtown streetcar. It would not be hard to imagine that at some point in the future two lines could share much of the track: one would continue the UBC line north to Hastings and then turn east and go to Burnaby, while the other would run from Stanley Park to Granville Island using the City's downtown streetcar route and then it would continue up to Broadway and Arbutus and perhaps then up to Kerrisdale with a loop south through Marpole and terminate at the Marine Drive Canada Line station or possibly in the East Fraser Lands.

I do agree with nname that combo 1 would mean that RRT/SkyTrain would never reach UBC and I think it needs it today, let alone for the future. That's why RRT to UBC is my preferred choice.

How about everyone who is writing in this thread make a point of completing the Translink questionnaire today? http://www.translink.ca/en/Be-Part-of-th...it-Study/Get-Involved/Questionnaire.aspx

[Gordon]

As far as incresing frequencies on other routes servicing UBC this has happened on th #84 route over the the last few year. What is the ridership on that route?

Hopefully when the government & Translink finally sit down and deal with the funding issue The #43 B Line service will be introduced.

[squeezied]

Originally Posted by crazyjoeda

That's one problem that wont be an issue because cyclists use the "Off Broadway" route that parallels Broadway on 8th Avenue. It's a really nice route too.

Well there's an issue here: increased traffic due to parking removal and left turn restrictions.

With LRT, the parking removal along Broadway will cause motorist to seek parking elsewhere that's close to Broadway (ie. along the bike routes on 8th and 10th Ave). That means increased traffice along the bike routes as well as streets crossing the bike routes (because practically you won't find parking along 8th or 10th ave and as such required to search for parking futher away).

Additionally the restrictions on left-turns while travelling along Broadway will cause increased traffic on the parallel bike routes. For an example, if I were travelling eastbound along Broadway and want to go north bound on Macdonald (ie a prohibitive left turn), I would have to make a right turn before Macdonald going south then make a left turn on to 10th Ave (a bike route) going east then make a left turn on Macdonald going north.

Increased motor traffic = not good on bike routes.

[golog]

A grade separated rail line along Broadway from UBC to Commerical Dr would have the greatest ridership of any Skytrain line, at launch.

I think half-assing it is a bad idea. Not only would you have to add in the cost to bring in another TBM, but you sacrifice most of the benefits in bus routing. The depots are at Oak & 41st and SW Marine & Granville, so you'll have to deadhead a crushload of busses to fill in the gap.

Don't forget operational costs either. Skytrain is cheaper mainly because it doesn't require a driver on board. Don't know why you wouldn't extend the tunnel the whole way either, 16th or SW Marine might be ideal for at grade but the route would be down University Blvd / 10th Avenue and it is definitely not ideal.

The problem is Broadway is congested, and traffic is spilling over to other East-West routes. The opportunity is the huge number of people who live or work within a couple hundred meters of Broadway, in addition to strengthening a backbone that supports all the North-South routes it crosses.

The debate is not about what's the worthwhile or the best solution, it's about the politics of it all -- appropriating money, spending it, who gets to be the hero. People will say all kinds of stupid stuff to reach the conclusion they want to hear but are too afraid to address directly.

[wrenegade]

Don't you hate it when you type something out and press delete to correct a mistake, and instead the page goes back and erases everything you had written?

Anyways....

My overwhelming support is for RRT all the way to UBC. As mentioned above, I feel that a combo RRT/LRT to UBC would virtually assure no extension of RRT past Arbutus, which as also mentioned, is something that is needed (needed now I might add). RRT all the way to UBC wouldn't necessarily eliminate LRT/Streetcar from Science World to Arbutus, it just may delay it a bit. Of the two options, I would rather delay the Streetcar/LRT and get the UBC Line done properly.

There are so many problems with running LRT down Central Broadway. The reduction in parking, restrictions on left hand turns, and more accidents. There will be LRT/motor vehicle accidents. Maybe not a ton of them, but there will be some. This is Vancouver after all. Collectively, we are certainly not the best of drivers.

If Vancouver wants to be the "Green Capital" we should do the UBC Line correctly the first time. Skytrain will get more people out of their cars than any of the other options. Combo 1 pretty much matches it, but includes two different lines to reach that number. Arguably that streetcar line from Science World to Arbutus will happen at some time anyway, further feeding and increasing ridership to UBC Skytrain. Let's — it up and do it correctly. Proper size station platforms as well please.

[officedweller]

I also like Combo 1. (either as an alternative to RRT all the way to UBC or even as a first choice).
Broadway west of Arbutus is very neighbourhood oriented and the LRT would work well there. There's also West 12th Ave. and Wet 16th Ave. to take traffic.
It also has the effect of distributing tranferring Expo Line passengers from Broadway & Commercial to Main Street as well. It also gives Granville Island transit that's integrated with TransLink rather than a standalone City system (additional fare).

[agrant]

+1 @ awvan.

It is so obvious to me that RRT to UBC would be the best way to go. The only thing holding this back is funding.

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by SFUVancouver

How about everyone who is writing in this thread make a point of completing the Translink questionnaire today? http://www.translink.ca/en/Be-Part-of-th...it-Study/Get-Involved/Questionnaire.aspx

Anyone else confused a bit by this questionnaire? Is it just me or are they just asking if I agree with the correctness of the assumptions they have made in the proposed alternatives? The questions are NOT about the suitability of the alternatives?

[nname]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

Anyone else confused a bit by this questionnaire? Is it just me or are they just asking if I agree with the correctness of the assumptions they have made in the proposed alternatives? The questions are NOT about the suitability of the alternatives?

They are not letting you to pick the alternative you like... its their job to do..

They are asking for what to add/remove/change for each of the alternatives.. ie. extra stations, horizontal and vertical alignment, etc...

[logan5]

Running a light rail line down 41st ave would solve any capacity problems to UBC. 41st is centrally located and could easily accommodate a light rail line.

Light rail lines with signal priority are almost as fast as grade separated systems, but at 1/4 to 1/3 the cost of a subway. For the price of an Arbutus to UBC subway, we could have a light rail line from Main St./Science World to UBC, and a light rail line from Joyce Station/41st Ave to UBC.

[mr.sandbag]

the stations do seem to be placed were RRT stations would be and is shown this way for all senarios... why. because the intention is to go RRT all the way, imo...

the only reason to go through this process is to show how much impact LRT and rapid bus will have on all the shopping and pedestrain traffic allong west broadway. can you imagine all the shop owners along west broadway will just roll over and give away the bulk of thier street parking.... RAV line....

[crazyjoeda]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

Anyone else confused a bit by this questionnaire? Is it just me or are they just asking if I agree with the correctness of the assumptions they have made in the proposed alternatives? The questions are NOT about the suitability of the alternatives?

I'm also not sure what they mean by assumptions. "What is your level of agreement with the assumptions for the..." are assumptions the basis for their ridership numbers, cost estimates and travel time? Because I thought that info more than some half assed assumption but based on research.

[nname]

Originally Posted by logan5

Light rail lines with signal priority are almost as fast as grade separated systems, but at 1/4 to 1/3 the cost of a subway.

Only alongside highway or freeway, which there is none in the Vancouver/UBC area. Remember, anything running at-grade will have to obey the speed limit of the road, and 50km/h is hardly as fast as 80km/h.

Originally Posted by logan5

For the price of an Arbutus to UBC subway, we could have a light rail line from Main St./Science World to UBC, and a light rail line from Joyce Station/41st Ave to UBC.

Have you look at the cost estimate in the report? The combo 1 estimate is just 500 millions cheaper than RRT to UBC. Using the same estimate at 85 millions/km, the 41st Avenue would cost 1.7 billions, so your plan would be 1.2 billions more expensive. I would rather see this money going toward the 400 millions funding gap for Evergreen and a Surrey SkyTrain line to Newton...

[djh]

If one is going to support Combo 1 (RRT to Arbutus, LRT to UBC/Science World, $2.4 billion), what's the cost-benefit ratio compared to supporting RRT Option B ($2.9 billion, bored tunned to UBC)?

Option B FTW
(but I understand if people like the combo option)

[nname]

Originally Posted by crazyjoeda

I'm also not sure what they mean by assumptions. "What is your level of agreement with the assumptions for the..." are assumptions the basis for their ridership numbers, cost estimates and travel time? Because I thought that info more than some half assed assumption but based on research.

http://www.translink.ca/en/Be-Part-of-th...kind-of-feedback-are-we-looking-for.aspx

[Zassk]

Originally Posted by logan5

Running a light rail line down 41st ave would solve any capacity problems to UBC. 41st is centrally located and could easily accommodate a light rail line.

You and I have very different opinions of how suitable 41st is for this...

I think 41st would be an absolute nightmare through Kerrisdale, and is sure to receive the highest NIMBY resistance (which has nixed any thoughts of an Arbutus line to date - and that one has dedicated ROW). A 41st line would pass through the lowest density sections of Vancouver, and would serve the least number of west-side destinations, as compared to any other east-west route.

It just doesn't make any sense.

I will hazard a guess that anyone on SSP who advocates to end the Broadway line short of UBC, or to use a different road or mode, must have no experience with commuting to UBC for school/work/recreation.

It is time that more people recognize UBC/UEL is actually a suburb of Vancouver and the fastest growing community in Metro Vancouver. Stop thinking of it as "just" a school.

[logan5]

Originally Posted by nname

Only alongside highway or freeway, which there is none in the Vancouver/UBC area. Remember, anything running at-grade will have to obey the speed limit of the road, and 50km/h is hardly as fast as 80km/h.

Even Translink numbers show 20 min. for Skytrain vs 26 min. for lrt, Commercial to UBC.