Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[punface]

Originally Posted by djh

After reading the feedback from the community consultations, I was surprised that there was in fact much less neighbourhood opposiition to the line than people have assumed. Translink noted this too, so I think they will take this into consideration when planning the line. I think the media still hangs onto that one person's "Creme de la Creme" comment at a public meeting nearly a decade ago now, and uses that to describe *everybody* west of Arbutus. I think it's a media myth.

My experience from attending a Dunbar-area consultation during the last round of UBC-Line consultations was that most residents already hate the B-Line (noise/speed/frequency/pollution) and would support proposed replacements that improve any of those areas. The biggest fear of the residents I shared a table with was an elevated Skytrain track, and their second biggest fear was anything on the ground that is more frequent than the existing B-Line. There was definitely a bit of "creme de la creme" attitude in their concerns - but I now think this works to the advantage of the fully-underground options.

Personally I like the combination alternatives (Skytrain/streetcar) as long as the Millennium Line goes to at least Arbutus ... but when surface streetcars were mentioned for the final segment the locals were not at all impressed.

I plan on attending one of the workshops next week ... hopefully it is as fun as the last one.

[madmigs]

Originally Posted by punface

My experience from attending a Dunbar-area consultation during the last round of UBC-Line consultations was that most residents already hate the B-Line (noise/speed/frequency/pollution) and would support proposed replacements that improve any of those areas. The biggest fear of the residents I shared a table with was an elevated Skytrain track, and their second biggest fear was anything on the ground that is more frequent than the existing B-Line. There was definitely a bit of "creme de la creme" attitude in their concerns - but I now think this works to the advantage of the fully-underground options.

Personally I like the combination alternatives (Skytrain/streetcar) as long as the Millennium Line goes to at least Arbutus ... but when surface streetcars were mentioned for the final segment the locals were not at all impressed.

I plan on attending one of the workshops next week ... hopefully it is as fun as the last one.

Good to hear, but I still see a lot of comments on articles from people in the area about the crime train, bringing lots more people to their neighborhoods, etc. At least it is great to know they are against above-ground stuff, but that seems entirely at odds with the so-called mayor of kits and his gang who seem to want ground-level LRT. And I don't think any of us want a raised guideway going to UBC, it wouldn't suit the neighborhood and would entirely ruin the look of the endowment lands to have this giant concrete track running through the middle of it.

[Alex Mackinnon]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

Phase I - Expo line to New Westminster (1986)
Phase II - Extended to Scott Road (1990)
Phase III - Extended to King George (1994)

That was a non-starter because the largest ridership for the Canada Line was always YVR and South of Fraser.

The thing is that those phases are in logical places. Distinct phases don't sense on something like the Broadway line which is reasonably short, and will likely only contain one type of construction.

To mobilize and demobilize a tunnel boring machine is a massive endeavor, hence why many of them get left in the ground after a large job. If we want to phase construction on this job Translink may as well buy all the construction equipment because a large portion of the big ticket items will be left underground mothballed until the next phase of construction commences.

Once the TBM is in the ground you've basically committed to a full line since the unit cost will take such a dive after the few few km of tunnel are built that it will make sense to continue construction. The flipside of this is that the stub line is far less attractive when you look at the cost benefit ratio.

If we want to make this attractive we should just plan to do construction starting at VCC with 1 section under construction at any given time. Funding could be put into place as construction continues 1 station section at a time; with the expectation that the entire line will be built slowly. The tunnel can be furnished one section at a time allowing for the use advantages of early utilization and development of political capital, while some of the expenses can be put off to a later date and written down in cost.

This should also make it easier for the constructor to turn in a lower bid since they would have to have a stable amount of equipment on site, stable workforce and consistent cash flows.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Alex Mackinnon

To mobilize and demobilize a tunnel boring machine is a massive endeavor, hence why many of them get left in the ground after a large job.

I'm no engineer, but I imagine that getting the tunnel boring machine into the ground for the Broadway extension of the Canada line won't be that big a deal since it will doubtless just start in at the east portal of the tunnel. And it's hard to see how extricating it at the cut-and-cover for the last station would be all that big a deal either.

If there's a real issue with regard to this, just leave the machine(s) in the ground until the extension is built. What's a TBM cost, anyway?

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by madmigs

Good to hear, but I still see a lot of comments on articles from people in the area about the crime train, bringing lots more people to their neighborhoods, etc. At least it is great to know they are against above-ground stuff, but that seems entirely at odds with the so-called mayor of kits and his gang who seem to want ground-level LRT. And I don't think any of us want a raised guideway going to UBC, it wouldn't suit the neighborhood and would entirely ruin the look of the endowment lands to have this giant concrete track running through the middle of it.

Obviously a tunnel is the only option along Broadway but tunneling under the endownment lands themselves and through UBC would be a gigantic waste of money, an elevated, or even in areas an at grade rail (akin to around Templeton Station on the Canada Line) would be more than fine along this extension's western half (especially west of Blanca St.)

I honestly think that the Evergreen Line Project should also have had the first phase of the M line extension to the Broadway C-Line station tagged on with it. This would have further cemented skytrain as the technology of choice under Broadway.

[Alex Mackinnon]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

I'm no engineer, but I imagine that getting the tunnel boring machine into the ground for the Broadway extension of the Canada line won't be that big a deal since it will doubtless just start in at the east portal of the tunnel. And it's hard to see how extricating it at the cut-and-cover for the last station would be all that big a deal either.

If there's a real issue with regard to this, just leave the machine(s) in the ground until the extension is built. What's a TBM cost, anyway?

I'm not sure what they're worth new as I haven't had to deal with that end of the business yet. Used, they're dirt cheap due to the amount of wear that usually occurs on them. There used to be a site that had a whole bunch listed. The big ones went for about $2 mil. You would remanufacture the equipment before use, so maybe $4-5 mil. Pulling the equipment out of the ground in this case may be more than the used value of the equipment.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Alex Mackinnon

You would remanufacture the equipment before use, so maybe $4-5 mil. Pulling the equipment out of the ground in this case may be more than the used value of the equipment.

That's a pittance in terms of the overall project cost, so just leaving them in the ground until we're ready to extend the line past, say, Arbutus seems like a perfectly viable option.

[Alex Mackinnon]

It's not that much, but I would assume new equipment with 2 tunnels run in parallel.

As a disclaimer I'm from a mining background and haven't worked on any transportation tunnels before, so I'm not sure where all the cost is coming from in this kind of work. 10km of mining tunnels would probably be around $200-400 mil in solid ground. A few hundred million in shotcrete, grout and rock bolts and call it a day.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by djh

I don't get this compromise choice of stopping the line at Granville or Arbutus. Why pick that point?

Granville Street is typically viewed as the western end of the Broadway Office Corridor. An extra push to Arbutus would link it to the Arbutus corridor (i.e. this was planned pre-Canada Line, but would still provide a useful link to the future streetcar.) West of Granville or Arbutus, Broadway is thought of as a neighborhood shopping street.

Also, if I recall correctly, the NDP provincial government of the day also committed to funding the M-Line only as far west as Granville.

I could see SkyTrain to Arbutus and LRT from there to UBC and south to Kerrisdale.

[Alex Mackinnon]

People generally pick Arbutus as a logical end as it's past most of the congestion on Central Broadway.

[Gordon]

The one thing with Arbutus as a terminus for the Broadway Line, the immediate area is fully developed so it may be difficult to find space for a proper bus loop with the space required for articulated buses.

[Jebby]

To me it just doesn't make long term sense to end it at arbutus. It's going to be extended to UBC eventually so why not do it from the beginning?

[Zassk]

At Arbutus, you're only 4 km short of the UEL (roughly the same length as the YVR spur). It really doesn't make sense to leave out this 4 km from the planning, whether it has to be built in phases or not. This segment connects the #2 and #3 transit destinations in Metro Van, and would far exceed ridership at the other four "tails" in the SkyTrain network. UBC can certainly pay for the remaining 2 km or so from the border of the UEL into the central campus.

[wrenegade]

You sorta lose a lot of the efficiency you gain with skytrain by making riders switch to a bus again. I will recognize that you do gain the extra distance between Broadway/Commercial and Arbutus at a higher speed (skytrain) but you still have to make the switch. It is also extremely short-sighted as UBC is the fastest growing area (and one of the largest employment hubs) in the lower mainland.

[Spork]

Leave it to the planners. The fact is that it is either ready for it or it isn't. There's no point in saying that we may as well do it now. If we said that about everything, we would be overbuilding all of our infrastructure and paying the depreciation on it before it is even of any incremental use.

[crazyjoeda]

Originally Posted by awvan

You sorta lose a lot of the efficiency you gain with skytrain by making riders switch to a bus again. I will recognize that you do gain the extra distance between Broadway/Commercial and Arbutus at a higher speed (skytrain) but you still have to make the switch. It is also extremely short-sighted as UBC is the fastest growing area (and one of the largest employment hubs) in the lower mainland.

Most importantly it's more efficient and cheaper to build it all at once. Unlike the Canada Line this has to be a skytrain extension no needless transfer to some other transit technology, and lets make sure the platforms are long enough. If you're going to do it, do it right!

[CLC]

Originally Posted by Spork

Leave it to the planners. The fact is that it is either ready for it or it isn't. There's no point in saying that we may as well do it now. If we said that about everything, we would be overbuilding all of our infrastructure and paying the depreciation on it before it is even of any incremental use.

Reminded me about the old news that Metro Vancouver directors have put UBC rapid transit below Evergreen Line (first priority), rapid transit expansion in Surrey & Langley and Broadway corridor as far as Arbutus Street(tied second).

[wrenegade]

Originally Posted by Spork

Leave it to the planners. The fact is that it is either ready for it or it isn't. There's no point in saying that we may as well do it now. If we said that about everything, we would be overbuilding all of our infrastructure and paying the depreciation on it before it is even of any incremental use.

The Broadway corridor was ready for this line 10 years ago. It is the busiest bus route in North America and would likely be revenue positive from day one of operations. The Evergreen Line and any Surrey extensions will lose money for at least 10 years. It is more important to build for the density we have now as opposed to where we project it to grow (although as previously mentioned, the UBC area is also the fastest growing area in the lower mainland). It seems absolutely stupid to build either the Evergreen Line or any Surrey extension first. Apologies to those living in the Tri-cities, while you guys do deserve a Skytrain line, not before the Broadway/UBC corridor.

[DKaz]

Extending the line to Arbutus would allow the line to hook up what we know will eventually be a tram and commuter rail line down Arbutus. I didn't realize however that UBC was just another 4km away. Makes sense to just go all the way.

[tybuilding]

Originally Posted by DKaz

Extending the line to Arbutus would allow the line to hook up what we know will eventually be a tram and commuter rail line down Arbutus. I didn't realize however that UBC was just another 4km away. Makes sense to just go all the way.

4.57 km from Arbutus to Blanca
6.9 km from Arbutus to Westbrook Mall
7.3 km from Arbutus to East Mall