Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by Hed Kandi

Everyone should attend one of these workshops and vouch for the skytrain option. The last thing this city needs is a sub-standard LRT line.

Nor do we want a 'Stubway' skytrain extension only running from VCC-Clark to City Hall.

FULL BORE to UBC

[CLC]

Originally Posted by Hed Kandi

Everyone should attend one of these workshops and vouch for the skytrain option. The last thing this city needs is a sub-standard LRT line.

Those don't want to face NIMBY directly may consider this web event:

Web conference : Monday April 4 7-8pm
http://bepartoftheplan.ca

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

Nor do we want a 'Stubway' skytrain extension only running from VCC-Clark to City Hall.

FULL BORE to UBC

The line will have a better chance of being built if it stops at Granville or Arbutus in order to reduce costs and avoid the worst of the NIMBY opposition. Doing that will service the densest part of the Broadway corridor that needs it the most, and it will allow B-line buses to bridge the remaining gap to UBC without having to be bottlenecked by the most congested part of Broadway and without having to provide the capacity required for the rest of the corridor.

I think if you really want Skytrain extended along Broadway, you're going to have to be willing to make this compromise. Remember that it would still be possible to extend the line in the future if UBC-bound traffic ever warrants it.

[Mininari]

Given the current state of Translink's finances, the pace of construction on the 'nevergreen' line, and fretting over refurbishing versus REPLACING the patullo bridge... I would say that building Skytrain to Arbutus might be all that we should realistically hope for...

by 2030 or so.

The catch is figuring out a good location to have a high volume of buses terminating at or near Arbutus, turning around, etc.
Peak hour traffic going to UBC already warrants a steady stream of b-line 99 buses picking people up at Commercial.

[SpongeG]

UBC can wait, just get the extension of m-line to at least granville or arbutus - I am sure they can work out how to deal with the busses there

[djh]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

UBC can wait, just get the extension of m-line to at least granville or arbutus - I am sure they can work out how to deal with the busses there

I don't get this compromise choice of stopping the line at Granville or Arbutus. Why pick that point? Not only is it a terrible place to have buses congregate (not very good for turning around, compared to other locations), but they are not that far from where the line stops now (probably only 3 or 4 skytrain stops from the existing farthest west Millennium Line station). And on top of all, they are not the most useful of terminii for a mass-transit line. Alma would be better than either Granville or Arbutus, as more people would be able to use the line. Blanca would be even better. Maybe the University would be willing to fund from Blanca to UBC, but Translink should look to 100% fund at least up to Blanca to provide a rapid-transit system for tax-payers.

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by djh

I don't get this compromise choice of stopping the line at Granville or Arbutus. Why pick that point?

Ummm... money? Face it, if any part of this line goes through before 2020 it will be a miracle.

[djh]

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

Ummm... money? Face it, if any part of this line goes through before 2020 it will be a miracle.

We have a provincial government in deficit. Spending even $1 makes us "more in debt".

So, why spend, let's hypothetically say, 75% of the cost (and plan, design & construction time) of the full project in order to "save money", when we can spend the extra say 25% and get the full connection to UBC? Really, no matter what the calculations say about this many million dollars per kilometre, on any transit project there are huge start-up and capital costs that take up a major chunk of the budget, so you might as well do the whole project and not have to come back a decade later and incur those huge capital costs all over again. Let alone the fact that construction project costs more over time.

[Spork]

The question is whether or not the traffic to UBC necessitates that part of the line. There is much more along Broadway (VGH, massive employment, 10's of thousands of people, connection to downtown via Canada Line, South Granville, etc.) than you might expect at first thought. I'm sure that their analysis will reveal what is necessary.

[Millennium2002]

hopefully the analysis will reveal how much SkyTrain is needed on the corridor (note that I'm agreeing with the compromise proposed at top), unless the consultation gets derailed by the LRT, streetcar, and local residents and businesses groups and TransLink decides to follow their advice word-for-word. =S

[Zassk]

Phases... everyone... phases...

Phase 1 to Granville or Arbutus needs to be built ASAP. Phase 2 to UBC can be planned for 5 years later (or 10 years, or whatever, subject to finances). But under no circumstance should we just remove the last segment to UBC from the planning.

Originally Posted by Spork

The question is whether or not the traffic to UBC necessitates that part of the line.

Well, UBC already has more ridership than the Evergreen Line is anticipating... and UBC/UEL is expected to grow just as much as Coquitlam City Centre in the next 20 years...

Something else to consider: Canada Line was built to YVR based on a much smaller ridership than UBC. I suspect we can lean on UBC to provide a similar contribution to the project as YVR did to the Canada Line - especially if the UEL/campus get more than one station, so that it contributes to local transportation as well as regional.

It would seem to me that the UEL endowment was intended specifically to enable UBC to make these kinds of major investments.

[Mac Write]

100% pointless to built it to just Arbutus/Granville the line needs to go to UBC a Packed bus every 2 minutes already and a maxed out Broadway, no way a terminus of Arbutus/Granville can handle the even greater demand of a Skytrain terminus. Do it the right way the first time or not at all. If they only do "Phase 3" Phase 4 will sit on the burner for another two decades as has the Evergreen line which was supposed to start construction in 2003 and the UBC line was to have been completed last year. Do you really want another 2 decades of delays?

[SpongeG]

Originally Posted by djh

I don't get this compromise choice of stopping the line at Granville or Arbutus. Why pick that point? Not only is it a terrible place to have buses congregate (not very good for turning around, compared to other locations), but they are not that far from where the line stops now (probably only 3 or 4 skytrain stops from the existing farthest west Millennium Line station). And on top of all, they are not the most useful of terminii for a mass-transit line. Alma would be better than either Granville or Arbutus, as more people would be able to use the line. Blanca would be even better. Maybe the University would be willing to fund from Blanca to UBC, but Translink should look to 100% fund at least up to Blanca to provide a rapid-transit system for tax-payers.

better to be done in phases - UBC can be done after 2020

I've always thought we are wasting money on the evergreen line - use the funds form that and build as much for the western extension of m-line first than to UBC and than revisit the evergreen line

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Mac Write

100% pointless to built it to just Arbutus/Granville the line needs to go to UBC a Packed bus every 2 minutes already and a maxed out Broadway

The buses are packed because they have to handle passengers traveling to UBC, the Cambie corridor, the hospital district, and the Granville corridor. UBC-bound buses that originate at an Arbutus Skytrain terminus will ONLY have to handle UBC-bound passengers - a much lighter load.

And the part of Broadway that is maxed out is the area around the hospital district.

Aside from the cost, probably the most important political consideration is that the biggest opposition to extending the Skytrain line comes from NIMBY's west of Arbutus. Eliminate that part of the line (for now, at least) and you make it much, much easier to get financing and approval for the line.

I'm sure the very last thing most of us who post here want is to have ANY westbound extension cancelled because we're trying to bite off more than we can chew.

[madmigs]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

The buses are packed because they have to handle passengers traveling to UBC, the Cambie corridor, the hospital district, and the Granville corridor. UBC-bound buses that originate at an Arbutus Skytrain terminus will ONLY have to handle UBC-bound passengers - a much lighter load.

And the part of Broadway that is maxed out is the area around the hospital district.

Aside from the cost, probably the most important political consideration is that the biggest opposition to extending the Skytrain line comes from NIMBY's west of Arbutus. Eliminate that part of the line (for now, at least) and you make it much, much easier to get financing and approval for the line.

I'm sure the very last thing most of us who post here want is to have ANY westbound extension cancelled because we're trying to bite off more than we can chew.

If it went to arbutus, it would only leave about 4 stops on the B-Line to UBC, essentially cutting trip time in about 1/2. All the while cutting almost all of the non-ubc traffic from the b-line.

I agree it would be cheaper in the long run to do it all the way especially while they have the machinery in place, but it may end up not being practical, especially with the seemingly fierce opposition from those living between arbutus and UBC. And now that it seems our premier will hail from that riding again, i'm guessing our premier would not have the fortitude to stand up to them and risk not getting re-elected as i'm pretty sure that riding doesn't include UBC.

[CLC]

Originally Posted by Mac Write

100% pointless to built it to just Arbutus/Granville the line needs to go to UBC a Packed bus every 2 minutes already and a maxed out Broadway, no way a terminus of Arbutus/Granville can handle the even greater demand of a Skytrain terminus.

UBC bound traffic is high, but not need to be too exaggerated, with the exception of the 7-8am load on school session days.

Right now, 99-b bus after 9am after Arbutus stop are most likely not super-packed (though can be comfortably full), and bus frequency is 4-5 minutes.


btw from daily transit user point of view the most important goal of rapid transit is arguably time-saving, a partial Broadway line still achieve this goal for most of the riders and even UBC students (say, from east of Cambie) will benefit for at least 5 minutes time cut too.

[djh]

Don't you see this? "Building in phases" is generally a political euphemism for "never will get built, at least not under my administration". Can you think of any transit projects that were planned in phases and actually went through as planned in phases? Once the first phase is done, if the governing body changes it's pretty much guaranteed that their successors will kibosh the project and claim it either needs further study, or was a political mistake.


Imagine if the Canada Line had been built in phases: Vancouver to Marine Drive; Marine Drive to Richmond, and then Marine Drive to YVR? After phase 1 would have failed in delivering the expected ridership boost and then the ensuing change in Translink, mayors and premiers, every new leader would have denouced it as a boondogglle, and phase 2 would have never got built.


So NO, no phased development. It would cost MORE, it would get eternally DELAYED, and it would end up being a COMPROMISE - i.e., not reach it's potential. As I said before, we're already in debt as a province, and it's not going to be any cheaper doing it in phases, so just bite the bullet and build the whole thing in one go.

[djh]

Originally Posted by CLC

btw from daily transit user point of view the most important goal of rapid transit is arguably time-saving, a partial Broadway line still achieve this goal for most of the riders and even UBC students (say, from east of Cambie) will benefit for at least 5 minutes time cut too.

Arguably, yes. How do you measure time-saving? Time saved because there's less congestion on the roads now that tens of thousands of people are now on the rapid transit line, for instance? I think there are lots of very important reasons to install rapid transit, not just saving 5 minutes.

[djh]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

Aside from the cost, probably the most important political consideration is that the biggest opposition to extending the Skytrain line comes from NIMBY's west of Arbutus. Eliminate that part of the line (for now, at least) and you make it much, much easier to get financing and approval for the line.

After reading the feedback from the community consultations, I was surprised that there was in fact much less neighbourhood opposiition to the line than people have assumed. Translink noted this too, so I think they will take this into consideration when planning the line. I think the media still hangs onto that one person's "Creme de la Creme" comment at a public meeting nearly a decade ago now, and uses that to describe *everybody* west of Arbutus. I think it's a media myth.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by djh

Can you think of any transit projects that were planned in phases and actually went through as planned in phases?

Phase I - Expo line to New Westminster (1986)
Phase II - Extended to Scott Road (1990)
Phase III - Extended to King George (1994)

Originally Posted by djh

Imagine if the Canada Line had been built in phases: Vancouver to Marine Drive; Marine Drive to Richmond, and then Marine Drive to YVR?

That was a non-starter because the largest ridership for the Canada Line was always YVR and South of Fraser.