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  #2701  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2011, 10:23 PM
wespidel wespidel is offline
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20,000 versus 25,000 permanent seats in price!

Well I understand what you are saying and I respect your comments but a permanent 20,000 permanent seat stadium with all the amenities today is going to be close or slightly higher than Bmo`s field`s 66 million dollar stadium. So logically speaking if you are going to do that, then at least build a modestly priced 25,000 permanent seat stadium with all the latest features for 85 to 100 million which is still at the low end in comparsion to other stadiums being built in Canada today, which woulld at least give us a super BMO field type stadium, with two south end stands but not with a fixed bowl, leave the end zones open for temporary expansion and better yet build a open tier on top of the stadium on both sides of the stadium for permanent expansion with a partial roof. I believe if built right, they can build this type of stadium for under 100 million, probably 90 million.

If they don`t build this type of stadium then they will not attract a professional sports franchise or other major events. It is simply as that!

I will leave you all with this thought. Do you think if the city of Halifax wanted or needed a new city hall or the NS Govt. wanted or needed a new province house do you think they would settle for second rate. The answer is no, they would want the best. Well to be honest the reason the stadium is not being treated with enough respect in relation to building the proper facility
is because it`s for the people and not for them!

I also believe you are totally wrong in saying that you don`t believe the majority of people that are sports fans and entertainment fans don`t care if we have a major stadium built or not. Well I`m sorry you are not correct! If you were to ask the majority of people if Halifax was to build a stadium, what would you want to see them build, a smaller inadequate stadium that cannot attract a major sports franchise or major events or a stadium that could, I`m sorry to say you would be totally out numbered, big time!
     
     
  #2702  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2011, 10:47 PM
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Originally Posted by wespidel View Post
I also believe you are totally wrong in saying that you don`t believe the majority of people that are sports fans and entertainment fans don`t care if we have a major stadium built or not. Well I`m sorry you are not correct! If you were to ask the majority of people if Halifax was to build a stadium, what would you want to see them build, a smaller inadequate stadium that cannot attract a major sports franchise or major events or a stadium that could, I`m sorry to say you would be totally out numbered, big time!
This is rather confusing. First of all, I didn`t say "the majority of people that are sports fans and entertainment fans don`t care if we have a major stadium built or not." What I said was; "I don't agree with your thesis and I don't think you speak for the majority. I would love to see a top notch facility at $100 million plus, but if the hard choice is a moderately priced stadium with 20,000 permanent seats or nothing, then I would choose the stadium." In other words, I am saying I believe the majority would want an entry level stadium that could host a CFL franchise as opposed to nothing. It has been established that the CFL requires a 20,000 permanent seat stadium for a franchise. What are the remaining specs for a CFL grade stadium? Media space, #washrooms, parking spaces, bench seats vs bucket seats, roof vs no roof, natural grass vs asto turf, etc. If you take min. seating and min. spec requirement for a CFL franchise and roll that out for 60-70 million I think most people would take that over nothing.

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  #2703  
Old Posted Mar 14, 2011, 12:47 AM
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I think there lies the problem if a library is a bigger project than a stadium regardless of how it`s being funded. I think in my opinion the stadium project is not being treated with any value or respect. I believe if Calgary had the same population has Halifax does today they would not build a 10 seat thousand like Halifax is going to build. Fenwick I respect your opinion and your expertise and I understand your theory, that a small stadium is better than none. I also believe back then, to build stadiums in stages worked but today it`s different in what a stadium needs. I believe a stadium today in a population like Halifax needs to have a certain capacity and with all the latest features in order to attract a professional sports owner or other major events unless like you said Fenwick you settle for a lot less which in this case becomes a university facility and I agree that is what Halifax will probably build. I personally feel it`s very disappointing and if money is definitely the problem area, that`s where I don`t buy the city`s agrument because then they would have built a 10 dollar 4-pad and not a 45 million dollar pad which the Feds didn`t support, and wouldn`t have commited 114 million towards a new convention centre. Fenwick I do respect your opinion as well and do believe you are right as well that Halifax will end up building a much smaller low end facility basicly geared for university sports only, which I believe will turn a lot of people off big time but like you said it`s better than what we have now which is a pigs hole with a field!

Just to tell you I ran into Fred Macgillivray today, I hope that`s the way you spell it and I told him what I posted on the site today and he agrees with me 100 %, all of it. He also said that Halifax already know what type of stadium they need to build and that the model is out there and that the survey was already done several years ago. He said there is know need for an advisory committee and that it`s a waste of time and money because they will only deliver a small 8 to 10 thousand permanent seat universiity type stadium if they do that. He said that Halifax needs to spend a minium of a 100 million and really needs a 30 to 35 thousand permanent seat stadium for the size of the area. He said that the committee they chose are not capable of building a major stadium and it`s more political than anything and it will be non- productive. He said the people that should have been put on the advisory committee that have real vision and who really wants to build the proper facility for Halifax were politically not chosen.
He also said if Halifax does not build a major stadium they will not be chosen has a host city for the FIFA Womens World Cup. He said the same as me that if Halifax builds a small stadium like Moncton, Moncton will win the bid to host the FIFA World Cup of Soccer.
Wespidel, I agree that Halifax should build a 25,000 seat stadium (and that SMU should renovate their stadium). If you go back and read what I posted, you will see that I mentioned the McMahon Stadium that started with 22,000 seats for $1,050,000 million (it should be noted that Calgary, which is a much larger city than Halifax, isn't considering a more expensive stadium than what they have - they started with a very basic stadium and then upgraded it over the years, but I think it is still a basic stadium). I just think that the cost is being over-estimated by basing the stadium cost on the cost of the Hamilton Stadium and Winnipeg Stadium without having detailed information on those stadiums. Why not base it on a scaled up Moncton Stadium? If that costs too much, then Halifax can go with the original 22,000 seat McMahon Stadium design.

If it is decided that Halifax can only afford a stadium for $50 million, then I think that Halifax should build the best stadium possible for that amount. Based on Moncton paying $20 million dollars for a 10,000 permanent seat stadium, Halifax should get at least 20,000 permanent seats for $50 million (probably even 25,000 seats).

I don't agree with you on the idea that it should be either a $100 million dollar stadium or nothing. Halifax should start with what it can afford. It can always be upgraded in the future. Haligonians shouldn't feel embarrassed by building what they can afford - that is a sensible approach to take. PS: If there is money and a business case for a more expensive stadium then that would be great, but if not them a less ambitious stadium would be a good start. When many of us were expecting funding from the federal government, a more expensive stadium looked like a possibility but the federal government has shown that it won't support the new arena in Quebec City or the stadium in Regina.

Last edited by fenwick16; Mar 14, 2011 at 6:42 AM.
     
     
  #2704  
Old Posted Mar 14, 2011, 4:45 AM
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I realize that this stadium is NOT being built soley for a potential CFL team but it would be great to see a team in my home town, I have never been a huge CFL fan mostly because there has never been a team in Halifax, I am a football fan however (go patriots) and would take much more intrest if there was a team there, I most definetly would follow a halifax team so why wouldn't they build a stadium able to carry such a franchise.Living in calgary I see how much people here embrase their team, it brings the comunity togeather,there also is a huge intrest in minor league football here keeping youth active. I belive if there was a team in halifax the same would occur.

Also as everyone else here has mentioned there are many other varrying uses for a top notch facility in an amazing city with tons of potential, so I say don't hold back build something worth having that will attract many events for years to come.... I also belive that with concesions it would help cover basic maitanance cost for the year if a city the size of regina can pull that money togeather then halifax should be able to find a means as well!
     
     
  #2705  
Old Posted Mar 14, 2011, 12:45 PM
wespidel wespidel is offline
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Empire, sorry about the thans, then here is an error for you!

20,000 permanent seats is not the minium qualifiation for a CFL franchise. Mr. Cohon has quoted many times, that it`s a miniun of 25 permanent seats which is why MTL expanded from 20 thousand to 25,000 seats. As well the Argos will not and cannot play at BMO field unless they expand to 30 thousand and realign their field which owner Mr. Braley has stated many times.

Also yes you can build a 20,000 seat stadium for 50 to 60 million dollar without the minium capacity and the proper amenities needed to operate a professional sports franchise like a CFL franchise and the stadium will become a university football facility and maybe you could host a Vanier Cup once in every ten years. The stadium will not have a major tenant and will sit empty because it will not be big enough for CFL football or any major concerts. I believe it would be a waste of 50 to 60 million unless you build a stadium with a minium of 25 permanent seats with all the amenities so it can accomodate what you need to make the stadium viable. It doesn`t make any sense to build less, especially in the 21st century with a city the size of Halifax.Yes you`re right if the city was half the size but it`s not, so why build an inadequate facility period, in a city the size of Halifax when it needs bigger and better. It`s not what they can afford or spend, it`s what they cannot afford not to spend to BUILD A MAJOR STADIUM FOR A MAJOR CITY !
     
     
  #2706  
Old Posted Mar 14, 2011, 1:36 PM
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Half measures just won't cut it.

Halifax needs to decide exactly what it wants. If you want a civic stadium to replace the stadium at SMU and support university football, then a 10,000 seat venue like at U de M would be more than sufficient.

If however the main purpose of this exercise is to build a facility to attract a CFL team, then you need at least 25,000 seats or, a facility easily expandable to 25,000 seats.

There is no sense in building a 20,000 seat venue.
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  #2707  
Old Posted Mar 14, 2011, 3:37 PM
wespidel wespidel is offline
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Thank-you, Moncton Rad!

Your are entirely right and thanks for the confirmation and intelligence! Moncton Rad, I heard something interesting from Fred M. on Sunday that Moncton apparently owns their make shift stadium. He that true and if so apparently FIFA is demanding single backed seats on all 20,000 plus seats regardless if they are make shift or not. So logically speaking why would you build a 20,000 seat stadium in Halifax which will not cut it when all 20,000 seats need to be permanent individual backed seats. So why even build a 20,000 permanent seat stadium when you need a minium of 25,000 to be a player!


What `s Halifax`s stupidity is Moncton`s gain, good for Moncton!
     
     
  #2708  
Old Posted Mar 14, 2011, 3:49 PM
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Empire, sorry about the thans, then here is an error for you
Quote:
Originally Posted by wespidel View Post
20,000 permanent seats is not the minium qualifiation for a CFL franchise. Mr. Cohon has quoted many times, that it`s a miniun of 25 permanent seats which is why MTL expanded from 20 thousand to 25,000 seats. As well the Argos will not and cannot play at BMO field unless they expand to 30 thousand and realign their field which owner Mr. Braley has stated many times.

Also yes you can build a 20,000 seat stadium for 50 to 60 million dollar without the minium capacity and the proper amenities needed to operate a professional sports franchise like a CFL franchise and the stadium will become a university football facility and maybe you could host a Vanier Cup once in every ten years. The stadium will not have a major tenant and will sit empty because it will not be big enough for CFL football or any major concerts. I believe it would be a waste of 50 to 60 million unless you build a stadium with a minium of 25 permanent seats with all the amenities so it can accomodate what you need to make the stadium viable. It doesn`t make any sense to build less, especially in the 21st century with a city the size of Halifax.Yes you`re right if the city was half the size but it`s not, so why build an inadequate facility period, in a city the size of Halifax when it needs bigger and better. It`s not what they can afford or spend, it`s what they cannot afford not to spend to BUILD A MAJOR STADIUM FOR A MAJOR CITY !
sorry wespidel

Ottawa, Quebec City possible Cat homes
THE HAMILTON SPECTATOR
(Aug 10, 2010)
http://www.thespec.com/news/local/article/248053--ottawa-quebec-city-possible-cat-homes
To move a CFL franchise, the Tiger-Cats would have to apply for a transfer and satisfy the league's board of directors that the team was sustainable in the new market. That would include such items as viable ownership and a stadium. CFL spokesperson Matt Maychak said the league does not have a minimum requirement for stadium seating, but most teams try to accommodate 25,000 to 30,000 people.
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  #2709  
Old Posted Mar 14, 2011, 4:51 PM
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Originally Posted by wespidel View Post
Your are entirely right and thanks for the confirmation and intelligence! Moncton Rad, I heard something interesting from Fred M. on Sunday that Moncton apparently owns their make shift stadium.
You're welcome Wes, please keep in mind that although I am pro-CFL in Moncton, that doesn't necessarily mean I'm against CFL in Halifax. In my fantasy world, I would like to see teams in both cities.

Yes, the city of Moncton currently owns the Moncton Stadium but there is a complex deal with U de M which sees ownership revert to the university at some point down the road (?25 years).

PS - Please stop referring to the Moncton Stadium as "make-shift". It is somewhat condescending and insulting. The stadium was well designed for it's primary purpose - hosting the IAAF World Junior Track & Field Championships.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wespidel View Post
Apparently FIFA is demanding single backed seats on all 20,000 plus seats regardless if they are make shift or not. So logically speaking why would you build a 20,000 seat stadium in Halifax which will not cut it when all 20,000 seats need to be permanent individual backed seats.
For the record, the Moncton Stadium does have single backed seats - 10,000 of them. We just have to get 15,000 more!
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  #2710  
Old Posted Mar 14, 2011, 5:15 PM
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Originally Posted by MonctonRad View Post
PS - Please stop referring to the Moncton Stadium as "make-shift". It is somewhat condescending and insulting. The stadium was well designed for it's primary purpose - hosting the IAAF World Junior Track & Field Championships.

For the record, the Moncton Stadium does have single backed seats - 10,000 of them. We just have to get 15,000 more!
MonctonRad - I think you are a very rational person and being a medical doctor, I think that people will accept your opinion. Based on my simple calculations, Moncton spend about $2000 per seat for 10,000 permanent seats ($20 million dollars). So if I interpolate, that would mean a 25,000 seat stadium would be $50 million. This part of the Moncton Stadium (below) looks very impressive, with folding seats, and it looks like it even has luxury box/media space at the top. If it were extended upwards by about 10 rows, and maybe lengthwise, and a similar structure placed on the opposite sideline, plus if it were placed above about 16 rows of a sunken horseshoe (inexpensive to build) then I think that Halifax would have a very good CFL ready stadium for about $50 million dollars. If Halifax threw in an extra $10 million then it could have even more extras (more luxury boxes, maybe a somewhat larger roof, more surface parking which is relatively inexpensive...). One question - is there an elevator in the section below so that the luxury boxes at the top are wheelchair accessible?

What do you think of my logic? By basing my estimates of $50 million - $60 million for a 25,000 seat stadium on the Moncton Stadium - do you see any flaws in my logic? I know there are many impressive looking 25,000 seat stadiums that have been built for this amount.

(source: http://www.toacanada.com/works/education.html )


Personally, I don't agree with the comments that Halifax must spend $100 million or forget about building a stadium.
     
     
  #2711  
Old Posted Mar 14, 2011, 5:32 PM
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MonctonRad - I think you are a very rational person and being a medical doctor, I think that people will accept your opinion. Based on my simple calculations, Moncton spend about $2000 per seat for 10,000 permanent seats ($20 million dollars). So if I interpolate, that would mean a 25,000 seat stadium would be $50 million. This part of the Moncton Stadium (below) looks very impressive, with folding seats, and it looks like it even has luxury box/media space at the top. If it were extended upwards by about 10 rows, and maybe lengthwise, and a similar structure placed on the opposite sideline, plus if it were placed above about 16 rows of a sunken horseshoe (inexpensive to build) then I think that Halifax would have a very good CFL ready stadium for about $50 million dollars. If Halifax threw in an extra $10 million then it could have even more extras (more luxury boxes, maybe a somewhat larger roof, more surface parking which is relatively inexpensive...). One question - is there an elevator in the section below so that the luxury boxes at the top are wheelchair accessible?

What do you think of my logic? By basing my estimates of $50 million - $60 million for a 25,000 seat stadium on the Moncton Stadium - do you see any flaws in my logic? I know there are many impressive looking 25,000 seat stadiums that have been built for this amount.

Personally, I don't agree with the comments that Halifax must spend $100 million or forget about building a stadium.
Being an MD doesn't make me an expert on stadium construction, but thanks for your vote of confidence.

I don't see any problem with your logic. The overall cost per seat in an all concrete stadium however would likely be higher than $2,000 though. The entire east grandstand in the Moncton Stadium is of steel and aluminum construction and the seats on that side do not fold up. Also, the space under the east grandstand is completely vacant with no washrooms or concessions. The cost per seat in a more sophisticated stadium therefore might be more on the order of $3,000

BTW, the glassed in section on the top of the west grandstand at the Moncton Stadium is all for media space. There was a large media contingent from around the world at the IAAF Games. Presumably a similar large media centre would be necessary for a FIFA event.
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  #2712  
Old Posted Mar 14, 2011, 5:56 PM
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Originally Posted by MonctonRad View Post
Being an MD doesn't make me an expert on stadium construction, but thanks for your vote of confidence.

I don't see any problem with your logic. The overall cost per seat in an all concrete stadium however would likely be higher than $2,000 though. The entire east grandstand in the Moncton Stadium is of steel and aluminum construction and the seats on that side do not fold up. Also, the space under the east grandstand is completely vacant with no washrooms or concessions. The cost per seat in a more sophisticated stadium therefore might be more on the order of $3,000

BTW, the glassed in section on the top of the west grandstand at the Moncton Stadium is all for media space. There was a large media contingent from around the world at the IAAF Games. Presumably a similar large media centre would be necessary for a FIFA event.
Thanks for the info. In the image below, could you tell me which are the temporary seats and which are the permanent seats (are all the seats along the sidelines, including the steel frame section, considered to be the permanent section, and all the ones in the endzones considered to be the temporary section?). Is there an elevator in the concrete section?
(Source: http://www.theprovince.com/sports/Photos+hits+Maritimes/3582336/story.html )
     
     
  #2713  
Old Posted Mar 14, 2011, 6:20 PM
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By going at a $3000 per seat cost that means the stadium would be in the $75 million range which is between the $60-90 million range that I beleive your mayor listed a few weeks ago. It would be of similar quality to the permanent moncton grandstand.
     
     
  #2714  
Old Posted Mar 14, 2011, 6:20 PM
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The only temporary seats are in the endzones.

I don't know about the elevator, sorry.
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  #2715  
Old Posted Mar 14, 2011, 6:23 PM
wespidel wespidel is offline
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Empire, sorry you`re wrong again!

The CFL and Mark Cohon sets the rules not your article spokeman who doesn`t know what he`s talking about. Mark Cohon has stated 25,000 permanent seats minium, although yes there could be exception. Like a 24 thousand permanent seat stadium with 40 plus skyboxes like Ottawa may be doing but it creates a problem hosting a Grey Cup, if more seats are make shift seats than permanent stadium seats. A 20,000 permanent seat stadium will not attract a CFL potiental owner and will not have the amenities needed to make money and does not qualify for the minium capacity needed for a CFL model stadium. Sorry but those are the real facts!
     
     
  #2716  
Old Posted Mar 14, 2011, 6:33 PM
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Moncton Rad, I been in Moncton`s stadium and sat in the better section so I know!

I was referring two the make shift endzone stadium set up they used for Touch Down Atlantic, not the permanent seat sections. I was told that the make shift stadium set up, Moncton owns and can easily insert single backed seats on their temporary endzone sections which FIFA wants a host city stadium to have.
     
     
  #2717  
Old Posted Mar 14, 2011, 6:45 PM
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I'm pretty sure the temporary endzone bleachers were rented for Touchdown Atlantic.

That being said though, the city is erecting 30,000 bleacher seats for the U2 concert at Magnetic Hill. There has been some talk, I believe, of there being a "permanent investment" here.....

Perhaps the Magnetic Hill bleachers (or some of them) could do double duty at the Moncton Stadium.

I do not know this as a fact however, so don't quote me!
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  #2718  
Old Posted Mar 14, 2011, 6:45 PM
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Originally Posted by wespidel View Post
The CFL and Mark Cohon sets the rules not your article spokeman who doesn`t know what he`s talking about. Mark Cohon has stated 25,000 permanent seats minium, although yes there could be exception. Like a 24 thousand permanent seat stadium with 40 plus skyboxes like Ottawa may be doing but it creates a problem hosting a Grey Cup, if more seats are make shift seats than permanent stadium seats. A 20,000 permanent seat stadium will not attract a CFL potiental owner and will not have the amenities needed to make money and does not qualify for the minium capacity needed for a CFL model stadium. Sorry but those are the real facts!
You missed the point long ago. The point wasn't to build a 20,000 seat stadium in Halifax vs a 25,000 seat stadium. The point was to build a reasonably priced stadium to the minimum requirements for a CFL franchise rather than have nothing. (approx. $60-70 million) I would say that you are a master at twisting the facts but then I would be wrong again.

see above
minimum
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  #2719  
Old Posted Mar 14, 2011, 7:02 PM
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Fenwick and Moncton Rad, question for you both on Councillor Fisher`s viewpoint!

If councillor Fisher said on local radio last week that Halifax needs a stadium somewhere between Moncton`s Stade stadium and a stadium in Brazil.

What do you think he is referring to! A 20,500 permanent seat 66 million dollar BMO field type stadium, or a 85 to 100 million dollar super BMO field stadium with twin two tier south side stands, that has concession stands, permanent washrooms, luxury skyboxes, club seats, lounges, restaurants, on both sides of stadium with a partial roof and hopefully with open endzones. Or would it cost more than a 100 million. I still believe you can build the super BMO field model for 90 million if it is built in a modest cost efficient manner and still have all the features and amenities, if HRM gets a GMP and buys the steel and concrete and metal or concrete risers locally. Buy all the material needed to build the main structure direct and farm out the labour to have it built locally, to receive the best possible price to bring it in at 90 million.

I seriously believe after talking to an architect good friend and owner of a construction company that it can be done and only if they stay away from one large company that wants to contract the whole project to double their profit.
     
     
  #2720  
Old Posted Mar 14, 2011, 7:20 PM
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Typing error, sorry Empire, or is it two m`s EMMPIRE!

SORRY SPELLING TEACHER EMPIRE, YES IT`S THREE M`S, MINIMUM!

I`m glad we have a Empire for a spelling typing error specialist on here. EMMPIRE I will make sure I mistakenly in my fast two finger computer keyboard typing speedy fashion, give you a lot more tying errors so you can do the corrections, to keep you happy, busy and insulting! EMMPIRE!

PS. EMMPIRE I KNOW AS WELL, (THAN) IS USED IN COMPARSION AND (THEN), LIKE NOW AND THEN! DID I PAST TEACHER EMMPIRE!
     
     
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