Halifax Stadium Discussion

[Waye Mason]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

There is a big difference in stadium constructions costs. So it isn't correct for people to compare a no-frills stadium with an extravagant stadium. The most basic stadium would just be stands and washrooms. This is a lot different than what is being built in Winnipeg, and the Winnipeg Stadium seems to be much more extravagant than McMahon Stadium (especially as it would have been in 1960).

Sure, but part of what drives the variability is the services and fixtures, right? So we don't want a bare bones, no fixtures 25,000 seat stadium, because that is not useful. To host a professional team you need professional grade facilities. I am all for small and bare bones, but the worst possible combination is CFL size in seats only, but without everything else you need to ever fill those seats.

[Welkin]

http://www.montrealimpact.com/Tickets/Stade.aspx?language=EN

Montreal Impact's Stade Saputo was built for $17 million. They are expanding the stadium to 20,00 seats plus putting a roof on it for the 2012 MLS season. The final price will be around $40 million. Not a bad stadium for that price.

http://www.montrealmls2012.com/stade.php?language=EN

[thurmas]

I remember posting about saputo stadium a few months ago on here and it is good for the budget the mayor has in Halifax. Maybe once a cfl owner is found like say the irvings or Mccains then extra amenities can be added to your ballpark maybe when a grey cup is awarded to Halifax.

[MonctonRad]

The Irvings and the McCains are both from New Brunswick.

[QUADONE]

Greetings All...

Well it is just so nice to have found this forum that suggest the concept of
placing/building a Stadium in Shannon Park. I want to introduce myself
because that is professional and proper thing to do before engaging in this
wonderful discussion that you all have going on here.


My full name is Brian D. Parker and I am currently the President of a
Non-profit organization called The Maritime Aquatic Institute Of The Atlantic
Association. I was appointed this position during the end of 2010 by Ms. Karen
Leamon Briand, the brainchild of creator of this project that started in 2008.
Ms. Karen Leamon Briand spent many hours researching things on the internet and
at the library, finding ways that would be more than feasible to have a huge
massive aquarium the size of the Halifax Shopping Center built either in
Dartmouth NS or Halifax NS. I am currently doing an Executive Summary &
Feasibility Study on why a huge massive aquarium should be built inside the Shannon
Park location, which will prove that Ms. Karen Leamon Briand's brainchild will
bring a huge economical positive impact within the HRM Area and at the same
time preserve the endangered aquatic life currently today being threatened
by all those oil rigs and tankers that are located within our shorelines.

IMPORTANT FACTS LISTED BELOW:

1. I have an extensive background in running a successful business from start
   and that has allowed me to be able to delegate things out to the proper people.
   
   
2. I have already performed such a task in this project and made difficult
   decisions on how things are going to happen in steps.
   
   
3. I will be seeking more qualified board members for certain departments
   and this will undergo a strict background check for those who are contacted
   for the applied position.
   
   
4. This project can be easily achieved through environmental grants both
   Federally & Provincially alone.
   
   
5. This facility can sustain itself through many avenues that a Stadium could
   not all year around.

This project will happen once the Feasibility Study is completed and I will be
happy to share it here with all of you. I am convinced that both of these can
compliment each other if done properly.

Will be back to hear comments.

Best regards,
Brian D. Parker

[Empire]

Originally Posted by QUADONE

Greetings All...

Well it is just so nice to have found this forum that suggest the concept of
placing/building a Stadium in Shannon Park. I want to introduce myself
because that is professional and proper thing to do before engaging in this
wonderful discussion that you all have going on here.


My full name is Brian D. Parker and I am currently the President of a
Non-profit organization called The Maritime Aquatic Institute Of The Atlantic
Association. I was appointed this position during the end of 2010 by Ms. Karen
Leamon Briand, the brainchild of creator of this project that started in 2008.
Ms. Karen Leamon Briand spent many hours researching things on the internet and
at the library, finding ways that would be more than feasible to have a huge
massive aquarium the size of the Halifax Shopping Center built either in
Dartmouth NS or Halifax NS. I am currently doing an Executive Summary &
Feasibility Study on why a huge massive aquarium should be built inside the Shannon
Park location, which will prove that Ms. Karen Leamon Briand's brainchild will
bring a huge economical positive impact within the HRM Area and at the same
time preserve the endangered aquatic life currently today being threatened
by all those oil rigs and tankers that are located within our shorelines.

IMPORTANT FACTS LISTED BELOW:

1. I have an extensive background in running a successful business from start
   and that has allowed me to be able to delegate things out to the proper people.
   
   
2. I have already performed such a task in this project and made difficult
   decisions on how things are going to happen in steps.
   
   
3. I will be seeking more qualified board members for certain departments
   and this will undergo a strict background check for those who are contacted
   for the applied position.
   
   
4. This project can be easily achieved through environmental grants both
   Federally & Provincially alone.
   
   
5. This facility can sustain itself through many avenues that a Stadium could
   not all year around.

This project will happen once the Feasibility Study is completed and I will be
happy to share it here with all of you. I am convinced that both of these can
compliment each other if done properly.

Will be back to hear comments.

Best regards,
Brian D. Parker

Great news! Finally a serious effort to bring a long awaited aquarium to HRM. I often thought BIO would be a great waterfront site for an aquarium . The research centre and aquarium could compliment each other and perhaps funding would be more plentiful. Shannon Park is also a good location. Perhaps an aquarium and stadium would work well together. Would the aquarium be on the waterfront. Maybe the aquarium should have it's own thread?

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Waye Mason

Thing is if you look into pro-sports business plans you see that concessions and other revenue are a big part of the bottom line, which is why folks like the Ti-Cats are so hot to renovate or move. A stripped down old fashioned concrete box does not get you the revenue or audience you need to do football professionally. All stadiums are building in restaurants and other facilities to cover costs. If you "take those out to save money" you are ensuring a deeper operating deficit going forward.

Honest to god, I think the Feds are looking out east and thinking "huh, some folks out there want as big a stadium as we have in Montreal and Toronto, they are crazy."

We are going to end up with either nothing (which would suck) or something like a Moncton Stadium on steroids (which is what we need and can afford).

I think we need to focus on on what is achievable. "Reinventing" stadium building is not going to happen, we should focus on what we can realistically get, which is a decent size stadium aimed at high end world class amateur sport.

Originally Posted by Waye Mason

Sure, but part of what drives the variability is the services and fixtures, right? So we don't want a bare bones, no fixtures 25,000 seat stadium, because that is not useful. To host a professional team you need professional grade facilities. I am all for small and bare bones, but the worst possible combination is CFL size in seats only, but without everything else you need to ever fill those seats.

You seem to have two opposite viewpoints. Maybe you just like to disagree.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

You seem to have two opposite viewpoints. Maybe you just like to disagree.

I think he is a graduate of "The Argument Clinic".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y

[Waye Mason]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

You seem to have two opposite viewpoints. Maybe you just like to disagree.

Those two points totally support one another.

Option A - $150-250 million CFL pro sports ready stadium - I don't want this. Or rather, l would love this, if it made any sense, but we can't afford it and our population is not big enough to support it.

Option B - $20 million Husky rebuild to $50 other site, 10K seats, basically exactly or slightly bigger than what Moncton built. - I support this. In fact, connecting Loyola to McNally/the Library and adding teaching space under a big bleacher would be a great addition to the university.

Option C - $75 million on a 25K seat stadium that is not set up in any way to host pro sports, and is too big to be useful for amateur sports, and will cost a ton to maintain and operate. - I think there are people who think seats is all that matter - I do not support this.

[macgregor]

Originally Posted by QUADONE

Greetings All...

Well it is just so nice to have found this forum that suggest the concept of
placing/building a Stadium in Shannon Park. I want to introduce myself
because that is professional and proper thing to do before engaging in this
wonderful discussion that you all have going on here.


My full name is Brian D. Parker and I am currently the President of a
Non-profit organization called The Maritime Aquatic Institute Of The Atlantic
Association. I was appointed this position during the end of 2010 by Ms. Karen
Leamon Briand, the brainchild of creator of this project that started in 2008.
Ms. Karen Leamon Briand spent many hours researching things on the internet and
at the library, finding ways that would be more than feasible to have a huge
massive aquarium the size of the Halifax Shopping Center built either in
Dartmouth NS or Halifax NS. I am currently doing an Executive Summary &
Feasibility Study on why a huge massive aquarium should be built inside the Shannon
Park location, which will prove that Ms. Karen Leamon Briand's brainchild will
bring a huge economical positive impact within the HRM Area and at the same
time preserve the endangered aquatic life currently today being threatened
by all those oil rigs and tankers that are located within our shorelines.

IMPORTANT FACTS LISTED BELOW:

1. I have an extensive background in running a successful business from start
   and that has allowed me to be able to delegate things out to the proper people.
   
   
2. I have already performed such a task in this project and made difficult
   decisions on how things are going to happen in steps.
   
   
3. I will be seeking more qualified board members for certain departments
   and this will undergo a strict background check for those who are contacted
   for the applied position.
   
   
4. This project can be easily achieved through environmental grants both
   Federally & Provincially alone.
   
   
5. This facility can sustain itself through many avenues that a Stadium could
   not all year around.

This project will happen once the Feasibility Study is completed and I will be
happy to share it here with all of you. I am convinced that both of these can
compliment each other if done properly.

Will be back to hear comments.

Best regards,
Brian D. Parker

Should probably practice your grammar if you want investors.

[CorbeauNoir]

Originally Posted by macgregor

Should probably practice your grammar if you want investors.

"Nigerian royalty" came to mind when I saw that...

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Waye Mason

Those two points totally support one another.

Option A - $150-250 million CFL pro sports ready stadium - I don't want this. Or rather, l would love this, if it made any sense, but we can't afford it and our population is not big enough to support it.

Option B - $20 million Husky rebuild to $50 other site, 10K seats, basically exactly or slightly bigger than what Moncton built. - I support this. In fact, connecting Loyola to McNally/the Library and adding teaching space under a big bleacher would be a great addition to the university.

Option C - $75 million on a 25K seat stadium that is not set up in any way to host pro sports, and is too big to be useful for amateur sports, and will cost a ton to maintain and operate. - I think there are people who think seats is all that matter - I do not support this.

It is your dollar figures that I don't agree with. Why would a stadium built for $20 million in Moncton cost $50 million to build in Halifax?

If the CFL really was demanding a $150 - $250 million dollar stadium then I would agree with your logic, but based on a previous story in the Globe and Mail it seems as though a $75 million dollar stadium would work for the CFL - reference, post 1354 - http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=174940&page=68 .

You are assuming that a SMU rebuilt stadium would be good for amateur sports and that SMU will allow it for that use, however, it would not even have room for the 20,000 seats required for the FIFA Women's World Cup event.

Instead of getting into endless arguments about which way to proceed, why not start up a thread devoted to restoring the SMU Stadium? This is something that I think is important also, I just don't think that it is an either or proposition. If Halifax wants bigger events, including the CFL, then the SMU Stadium is not suitable (it doesn't have enough space, and SMU likely wouldn't want a 25,000 seat stadium on campus even if there was room). Then you can just state that you oppose a 25,000 seat municipal stadium, and state facts and figures regarding a renovated SMU Stadium in a separate thread.

[wespidel]

Saputo structure lacks a lot of amenities,luxury skyboxes, lounges, club seats, etc., it`s bare bones, not even in the league of BMO`s field stadium. I suggest to Halifax if your going to go this route, get out of the game now and don`t embarrass the public and the city. This type of stadium would be ok for university sports but if you want to be a player on a National and Global stage which Halifax for it`s size should want to be, Halifax needs to spend a minium of 85 to 100 million at today prices but do the homework and shop around for the best stadium for the best price with all the features and size. Build it with a GMP, shop around for the best price on materials and buy direct locally and shop as well for the best price on labour to have it built and you will be able to build a major stadium for 85 to 100 million!

HRM have no problem spending 58 million on a library and 57 million on a convention centre as well as Dexter`s govt. spending another 57 million for a convention centre for a total of 114 million. Do they! So Halifax and Dexter`s govt. don`t snow the people of HRM and NS. Instead support the stadium project with the same respect that you support the other major projects and build at least a 85 to 100 dollar modestly priced major stadium with all the amenities for the only major city in Canada without a major stadium. Don`t embarrass the capital city of Halifax and the largest city in the Atlantic region and build a low end cheap looking eyesore that the rest of Canada will laugh at, including Moncton.

I also suggest to the Halifax`s stadium advisory committee, if you are planning to go down the cheapest road and build a eyesore which I a lot of people in HRM and surrounding area that I have talked to, believe you are, than they all agree that Hfx. should abolish their advisory board now and close the book on a stadium because out of the 560 thousand people that would be supporting the stadium within a hour and a half of Halifax, those people being the stadium supporters and ticket buyers, they all want at least a 85 to 100 million dollar major stadium built or they don`t want a stadium built period and this has been a consistent response overall, which I agree with 100%! What`s important here, is to listen to the market and the majority of people who will be supporting the stadium, who are sports fans and entertainment fans and most entertainment fans who go to concerts also are the same people buying tickets to sporting events.

PS. Halifax another important note, Lunn basicly said on local talk radio that all 6 cities already have infrastructure in place including Moncton NB who has a tory govt., so Lunn is saying Halifax you`re out!

So I would suggest to the city of Halifax the only chance you have to be chosen as one of the FIFA Womens World Cup host cities is to build a major facility and then FIFA will want Halifax as a host city and not Moncton or Moncton will be chosen. Why would you choose Halifax with the same type of low end cheaper stadium like Moncton`s over Moncton when the tories are in power in Ottawa and in NB and especially with Lunn as the tory Sports Minister. It`s not going to happen but if Halifax builds a major facility it will happen and that`s how you make it happen, Halifax! So either do it right or drop out now!

Sorry, but I tell it the way it is and why wouldn`t Halifax want to get it right and want to build it right so people of HRM and of NS and the Atlantic region, could say Halifax got it right this time and at the same time be proud to sit in a major facility in the only major city in Atlantic Canada.


PS. I hope the Dexter`s govt., P. Dexter, Estabrooks, and the stadium advisory committee take the time to read my post which I hope will make them think and realize that there is only one way to go here and if they aren`t prepared to make the commitment to build a major stadium in the price range of 85 ro 100 million than maybe they should stop the process now!

Also I believe if a major stadium is going to be the direction the city and the province takes versus a cheap facility which shouldn`t even be built than I also believe the public should be aware of this now, so the majority of the public can give the project the support it needs going forward. I don`t believe it`s fair to misinform the public on a 30 to 60 million stadium when the public wants a much better facility which the city of Halifax needs to a have as well which I believe the study will show! The reason I say this is because they have gone into the phase one process making the public believe if they were to build a stadium it would cost between 30 and 60 million which is not a major stadium but a low end stadium which the majority of sporting fans and the entertainment public who will be the ones supporting the stadium don`t want. Also city councillor Dalrymple said he heard 90 million which would make a lot more sense. If that is what now they are more committed to, then we may end up with a major stadium. I believe the Deputy Mayor of Halifax is a smart man and he suggested he would like to see a 85 to 100 million dollar stadium built on the Shannon Park site. But if that`s case than why are we being told 30 to 60 million which again the majority of the sports and entertainment public don`t want!

Big Question! So what is it a 30 to 60 or 85 to 100 million. I believe the public needs to know because majority of the public been made believe it`s only going to be a 30 to 60 million dollar stadium.

So why is there a advisory committee to build a lower end 30 to 60 million dollar stadium, even being considered when the majority of the people don`t want a cheaper facility built unless it`s upscaled to a bigger and better facility?

[Waye Mason]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

It is your dollar figures that I don't agree with. Why would a stadium built for $20 million in Moncton cost $50 million to build in Halifax?

The extra $30 million is the "on steroids" part.

Originally Posted by fenwick16

If the CFL really was demanding a $150 - $250 million dollar stadium then I would agree with your logic, but based on a previous story in the Globe and Mail it seems as though a $75 million dollar stadium would work for the CFL - reference, post 1354 - http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=174940&page=68 .

That article supports what I am saying. Barebones 75-100 million. Metal bleachers, no roof. That gives you big enough to seat CFL, but not developed enough to attract and retain an audience, or have the ancillary services you need to generate revenue.

Originally Posted by fenwick16

You are assuming that a SMU rebuilt stadium would be good for amateur sports and that SMU will allow it for that use, however, it would not even have room for the 20,000 seats required for the FIFA Women's World Cup event.

They sat 20,000 people there for a CFL game a couple years ago, as you well know. We could put temp seats there just like Moncton does for Touchdown Atlantic.

Originally Posted by fenwick16

Instead of getting into endless arguments about which way to proceed, why not start up a thread devoted to restoring the SMU Stadium? This is something that I think is important also, I just don't think that it is an either or proposition. If Halifax wants bigger events, including the CFL, then the SMU Stadium is not suitable (it doesn't have enough space, and SMU likely wouldn't want a 25,000 seat stadium on campus even if there was room). Then you can just state that you oppose a 25,000 seat municipal stadium, and state facts and figures regarding a renovated SMU Stadium in a separate thread.

No. I think we need a stadium similar to UdeM/Moncton, and I have lots of facts, figures and commentary to contribute to this thread. The fact that some people disagree with my analysis is not really my problem.

We need something bigger than SMU will build on their own, and SMU may be a good site, but if it isn't, we can still build something smaller than you are suggesting at some other site, Dartmouth Crossing, etc. But I think the need and viability of a CFL size stadium is debatable and I am willing to debate it.

I think anyone who says we can build a viable CFL stadium for 75 million in the face of the evidence is looking to build the "Washmill Overpass" of stadiums.

[fenwick16]

Wespidel, the problem that I see with this logic is that I don't think that there is the money available to build such a stadium. So instead of getting a decent stadium that can be upgraded, Halifax will once again end up no stadium. Calgary didn't start with the type of stadium that you are describing, they started with a bare-bones stadium that they upgraded over the years and which has been a venue for the CFL right from the time that it opened. Halifax can do better than that without spending so much money.

You mention the cost of the new Central Library as an example but the cost of that facility is about $55 million and it is being partially funded by the federal government. So I don't see how the Central Library justifies a $100 million dollar stadium.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Waye Mason

They sat 20,000 people there for a CFL game a couple years ago, as you well know. We could put temp seats there just like Moncton does for Touchdown Atlantic.

No, I know it sat 11,000. Waye Mason, you have to spend more time checking your facts.

No. I think we need a stadium similar to UdeM/Moncton, and I have lots of facts, figures and commentary to contribute to this thread. The fact that some people disagree with my analysis is not really my problem.

Your problem is that you don't spend enough time checking the facts in your "analysis".

I am going to sign out for the day. This is just becoming another argument that is based on your misguided intuition instead of facts. All I did was point out that Calgary's McMahon Stadium is a permanent stadium that started as a simple design at a very low cost. If you want to argue that point then contact people in the construction industry who will support your argument.

[Waye Mason]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

Your problem is that you don't spend enough time checking the facts in your "analysis".

I am going to sign out for the day. This is just becoming another argument that is based on your misguided intuition instead of facts. All I did was point out that Calgary's McMahon Stadium is a permanent stadium that started as a simple design at a very low cost. If you want to argue that point then contact people in the construction industry who will support your argument.

Your problem is you thought I was arguing with you, when really I was actually responding to q12.

Okay, I had one fact demonstrably incorrect, but that does not mean everything I wrote or suggest is incorrect. And they DID have 10K temp seats at UdeM, so it can be and is done.

[QUADONE]

Originally Posted by macgregor

Should probably practice your grammar if you want investors.

Ummm I am not seeking investors nor do I need investors to get this off the
ground. I and my board of directors will do just fine through many qualified
environmental grants either Federally & Provincially.

Thank you for pointing out the pointless though.

Best regards,
Brian D. Parker

[wespidel]

I think there lies the problem if a library is a bigger project than a stadium regardless of how it`s being funded. I think in my opinion the stadium project is not being treated with any value or respect. I believe if Calgary had the same population has Halifax does today they would not build a 10 seat thousand like Halifax is going to build. Fenwick I respect your opinion and your expertise and I understand your theory, that a small stadium is better than none. I also believe back then, to build stadiums in stages worked but today it`s different in what a stadium needs. I believe a stadium today in a population like Halifax needs to have a certain capacity and with all the latest features in order to attract a professional sports owner or other major events unless like you said Fenwick you settle for a lot less which in this case becomes a university facility and I agree that is what Halifax will probably build. I personally feel it`s very disappointing and if money is definitely the problem area, that`s where I don`t buy the city`s agrument because then they would have built a 10 dollar 4-pad and not a 45 million dollar pad which the Feds didn`t support, and wouldn`t have commited 114 million towards a new convention centre. Fenwick I do respect your opinion as well and do believe you are right as well that Halifax will end up building a much smaller low end facility basicly geared for university sports only, which I believe will turn a lot of people off big time but like you said it`s better than what we have now which is a pigs hole with a field!

Just to tell you I ran into Fred Macgillivray today, I hope that`s the way you spell it and I told him what I posted on the site today and he agrees with me 100 %, all of it. He also said that Halifax already know what type of stadium they need to build and that the model is out there and that the survey was already done several years ago. He said there is know need for an advisory committee and that it`s a waste of time and money because they will only deliver a small 8 to 10 thousand permanent seat universiity type stadium if they do that. He said that Halifax needs to spend a minium of a 100 million and really needs a 30 to 35 thousand permanent seat stadium for the size of the area. He said that the committee they chose are not capable of building a major stadium and it`s more political than anything and it will be non- productive. He said the people that should have been put on the advisory committee that have real vision and who really wants to build the proper facility for Halifax were politically not chosen.
He also said if Halifax does not build a major stadium they will not be chosen has a host city for the FIFA Womens World Cup. He said the same as me that if Halifax builds a small stadium like Moncton, Moncton will win the bid to host the FIFA World Cup of Soccer.

[Empire]

Originally Posted by wespidel

................................

PS. I hope the Dexter`s govt., P. Dexter, Estabrooks, and the stadium advisory committee take the time to read my post which I hope will make them think and realize that there is only one way to go here and if they aren`t prepared to make the commitment to build a major stadium in the price range of 85 ro 100 million than maybe they should stop the process now!


Big Question! So what is it a 30 to 60 or 85 to 100 million. I believe the public needs to know because majority of the public been made believe it`s only going to be a 30 to 60 million dollar stadium.

So why is there a advisory committee to build a lower end 30 to 60 million dollar stadium, even being considered when the majority of the people don`t want a cheaper facility built unless it`s upscaled to a bigger and better facility?

I don't agree with your thesis and I don't think you speak for the majority. I would love to see a top notch facility at $100 million plus, but if the hard choice is a moderately priced stadium with 20,000 permanent seats or nothing, then I would choose the stadium. If we miss this chance it will likely be another 20 years before a stadium gets built. .......the than I bolded above should be 'then'