Halifax Stadium Discussion

[q12]

Shannon Park property still in limbo

Smith hopes soccer bid will spur development

By IAN FAIRCLOUGH Staff Reporter

Mon, Mar 7 - 4:54 AM



Most of the former military housing site at Shannon Park in Dartmouth sits empty, but deputy mayor and local councillor Jim Smith hopes that won’t be the case for long.

Halifax’s interest in hosting the FIFA World Women’s Cup in 2015 and Defence Minister Peter MacKay’s musings that Shannon Park would be an ideal spot for a stadium will hopefully mean something will happen soon, Smith said.

The councillor said that it is high time something happened.

"I’m pleased to hear Minister MacKay say he thinks it a good site for a stadium,"" he said.

"Maybe that will be a catalyst for something to be done. We can’t just let it sit there."

Halifax Regional Municipality is mulling over building a stadium so it can be one of the Canadian cities to host the soccer event.

"I think it would be a great spot," Smith said. "There could actually be a cluster there of maybe a stadium and a couple of new rinks, and there’s room there for land for an aboriginal claim and for residential development. It would probably spur some private development there as well."

But not much has been happening lately. "There’s not a lot going on right now and that’s the unfortunate part," he said. "The last thing that took place was (the Defence Department) doing a land study of what it was worth. It’s been in the hands of DND, but they haven’t transferred it over to Canada Lands. We’re not sure why."

Canada Lands Co. is an arm’s-length federal Crown corporation that buys land Ottawa deems surplus. It manages or sells those properties.

Smith said the next step would have been for Canada Lands to decide what to do with the property, whether to develop it on its own or seek development proposals.

He said he doesn’t get a lot of unsolicited comments from constituents about the site, "but whenever I talk to someone, it’s pointed out that they’d like to get something done down there.

"It doesn’t matter whether it’s a stadium or a redevelopment. It’s just an eyesore and they would like to have it redeveloped. It’s just been sitting there too long."

The school at the site is still being used, as are soccer fields and a rink, but the old residential area has been fenced off.

"I would just like to have something done there," Smith said. "We were right on the cusp of having DND turn it over (to a developer), then the Commonwealth Games came along and it got delayed and delayed, and then (the Games) fell through, and nothing has happened since."

http://thechronicleherald.ca/DCW/1231831.html

[Empire]

Originally Posted by thurmas

the stadium here in winnipeg cost of $190 mil includes a $45 million fitness centre for the public and university of manitoba students and bison athletes. It also includes a Blue Bombers hall of fame to honour our rich history with the likes of Stegall, Bud Grant, Dieter Brock, Walby ect... and because the stadium is a bowl the cost includes a special track for extra grey cup seating going from 33,000 to 40,000 plus. If Halifax keeps the stadium open ended, has no hall of fame or rec facility and maybe benches instead of seats because seats alone cost around $12 mil that should really bring down the cost.

I still think there are possibilities for multiple stakeholders in a stadium in Halifax. There could be leaseable space built into the lower sections............. restaurants, pubs, fitness cnetre, health food store, maybe even some government offices....HRM parks & rec ...Provincial...dept of health & fitness...there are many possibilities for added value and revenue producing venues.

[q12]

Originally Posted by Empire

I still think there are possibilities for multiple stake holders in a stadium in Halifax. There could be leaseable space built into the lower sections............. restaurants, pubs, fitness cnetre, health food store, maybe even some government offices....HRM parks & rec ...Provincial...dept of health & fitness...there are many possibilities for added value and revenue producing venues.

Excellent ideas!

Why can't we build that Sochi Olympic stadium under construction for 63.5 million that's going to hold 45,000 in FIFA mode? And that cost includes temporary costs associated with the winter olympics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sochi_Olympic_Stadium

[Phalanx]

Remember: If something sounds too good to be true, it probably is?

The Wiki article's quoted cost for the Sochi Olympic Stadium is uncited...

Some actual news sources (Time, Russia Today) have reported on the cost estimates increasing dramatically (as they often do for Olympics), and the latter puts an estimated price tag of 8 billion (yes, with a b) rubles on the Olympic Stadium alone. This translates to about $276 million CDN. Granted, this is an estimated cost, but is more credible than an uncited wiki number.

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1973543,00.html
http://rt.com/politics/press/trud/sochi-2014-construction-costs/en/

[q12]

Originally Posted by Phalanx

Remember: If something sounds too good to be true, it probably is?

The Wiki article's quoted cost for the Sochi Olympic Stadium is uncited...

Some actual news sources (Time, Russia Today) have reported on the cost estimates increasing dramatically (as they often do for Olympics), and the latter puts an estimated price tag of 8 billion (yes, with a b) rubles on the Olympic Stadium alone. This translates to about $276 million CDN. Granted, this is an estimated cost, but is more credible than an uncited wiki number.

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1973543,00.html
http://rt.com/politics/press/trud/sochi-2014-construction-costs/en/

True, but we don't need 45,000 seats so about half of that is a good start even at the higher price it's not bad.

There have been quite a few examples of affordable stadiums either recently constructed or are under construction posted on this forum.

I don't think we need to reinvent the "Stadium" wheel. Examples of nice reasonable costing stadiums are out there and we just need to pick an example and go with it. Make some modifications and, BAM a stadium. Done Deal. OK maybe not that simple, but in theory...

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by wespidel

I just heard on talk radio that Dexter`s govt. will receive 32 million dollars more in gas revenue based on high gas prices and their tax on tax gas grab.

Lacey was on and confirmed this number which will probably be larger and that currently on 62 dollars worth of gas, Dexter`s govt. takes 24 dollars in gas tax revenue. This is insane and the Dexter`s govt does not give the city of Halifax not even a percentage of their gas revenue.


Well, NS`s NDP govt. if you happen to read this post, I believe and I`m sure the majority of people believe as well, it`s time to give that money back to the people and support the stadium project. Give back the 32 million which will be your contribution towards our stadium because we paid for it, so Halifax our city, can build a major stadium at least 10 years or more overdue !

Don't be foolish. They need that extra money to buy their own paving plant to compete against private business and hire an array of CUPE members to stand around it. And then pay them a pension for 40 years after they retire. Surely that is far more needed than a stadium. [/sarcasm]

[Waye Mason]

Willow Park is not available, the military uses it. It is primarily full of transport trucks and stores and such.

If you look at the Forum site, I don't think it is big enough, even if you tore down the MPR/Flea market and the Civic Arena, and I think that is not a good idea anyway, the MPR is one of the few affordable rooms in this city in its size, and the Civic is what, 20 years old, one of our scarce ice surfaces? We are not going to knock down those three spaces to build this, then you have to add the tens of millions to make up for losing those facilities and replacing them somewhere else.

I don't think we are going to see $90 million, and I don't think we are going to see more than $50 at the most. It took a long time for Moncton to get the full $17 million to build their 10,000 seater.

At no point has any politician talked about spending remotely the money it would take to build a "professional" stadium, if by that you mean BMO to CFL size.

Renovations to Ivor Wynne will cost $115 mil to reno, $215 to replace http://natpo.st/fU680N

Edmonton spent $60 million just renovating Commonwealth Stadium - http://dcnonl.com/article/id41617 and is talking about partnering with the Oilers in a $1 billion dollar downtown development - http://www.canada.com/edmontonjournal/ne...9ae2-4b82-4d0e-ad4c-e019b5861782&k=98695

Winnipeg is spending $190 million for non-covered stadium - http://www.tsn.ca/cfl/story/?id=345417

Regina is spending $430 million for a covered megaplex = CBC News - Saskatchewan - Regina stadium about inner-city - http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatchew...k-stadium-development-regina-110203.html

Thing is if you look into pro-sports business plans you see that concessions and other revenue are a big part of the bottom line, which is why folks like the Ti-Cats are so hot to renovate or move. A stripped down old fashioned concrete box does not get you the revenue or audience you need to do football professionally. All stadiums are building in restaurants and other facilities to cover costs. If you "take those out to save money" you are ensuring a deeper operating deficit going forward.

Honest to god, I think the Feds are looking out east and thinking "huh, some folks out there want as big a stadium as we have in Montreal and Toronto, they are crazy."

We are going to end up with either nothing (which would suck) or something like a Moncton Stadium on steroids (which is what we need and can afford).

I think we need to focus on on what is achievable. "Reinventing" stadium building is not going to happen, we should focus on what we can realistically get, which is a decent size stadium aimed at high end world class amateur sport.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Waye Mason

.
.
.
We are going to end up with either nothing (which would suck) or something like a Moncton Stadium on steroids (which is what we need and can afford).

I think we need to focus on on what is achievable. "Reinventing" stadium building is not going to happen, we should focus on what we can realistically get, which is a decent size stadium aimed at high end world class amateur sport.

I actually agree with almost everything you said; except the Regina stadium has been scrapped and the Winnipeg stadium includes a $45 million dollar recreation centre, and a Hall of Fame - reference thurmas. But these are extras that Halifax doesn't need. Some expensive stadiums even include multilevel parking which won't be required if surface parking can be used instead.

I like the idea of the Moncton Stadium on steroids - especially if the roof extended out a bit farther. What if an upper tier were mostly covered and the people in a lower tier could go into the concourse under the upper tier stands to get out of the rain?

Maybe Shannon Park is a better option than I thought; the public transit seems to have improved drastically in the past 30 years based on the Metro Transit map - http://www.halifax.ca/metrotransit/Schedules/documents/Mapback2010.pdf . There could be a quick turn-around shuttle from the new Dartmouth transit terminal, which will soon be built. There are several buses from Halifax going across the MacDonald Bridge, and even some across the MacKay Bridge. Also there is a Highfield Transit Terminal that I didn't even know existed (can some body tell me when this was built since I don't remember it when I lived in Halifax and Dartmouth - I have been away for 30 years now).

I imagine a Moncton stadium on steroids to look something like this:
(source: MSU PLASTER SPORTS COMPLEX - http://www.prestressedcasting.com/port_msusports.php )
.
And add a roof like the Moncton Stadium roof but have it extend out by a few more rows:
(source: http://www.cfl.ca/article/tickets-to-touchdown-atlantic-sold-out )


PS: I think that the best example of an economical stadium would be McMahon Stadium in Calgary. It was initially built with 22,000 seats in 1960 for $1,050,000 million dollars. This is inexpensive even if converted to current dollars. Over the years the capacity has been increased to as many as 38,000 permanent seats. However, recently the capacity has been reduced in favour of more luxury boxes - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McMahon_Stadium. I think the choice will be either the cheapest option - single tier (such as McMahon Stadium) or a somewhat more expensive two tier stadium that provides more wheelchair accessible space.

Based on what I have read, and based on talking to one person in the stadium construction industry, the basic concrete structure isn't overly expensive. It is all the extras that will add to the cost. Some of these are required such as washrooms, concessions, changerooms ... It is apparent to me that Halifax can build a no-frills stadium for under $50 million dollars that will seat 25,000. Such a stadium can always be upgraded in the future. I think this would be a better option for Halifax instead of deciding not to build a stadium because it can't afford a 1st rate stadium. In other words, start with a permanent no-frills stadium and upgrade it in the future. Possibly a few frills will be affordable, examples are - a short-overhang partial roof, folding seats, etc.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

Also there is a Highfield Transit Terminal that I didn't even know existed (can some body tell me when this was built since I don't remember it from 30 years ago - I have been away for 30 years now).

That's where one goes to do mercantile exchanges of assorted illicit goods, and to get mugged.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

That's where one goes to do mercantile exchanges of assorted illicit goods, and to get mugged.

Surely, it can't be that bad?

On another topic - it would be great if baseball could fit into the stadium. That is an advantage to having more room at a stadium site.

This is something that I did quickly and it isn't complete (I don't plan to complete this since it is just an example). I pasted stands along an image of the Fenway Park field with 320 feet between the stands - 62.5 feet on either side of a Canadian football field. (If it were the Polo Grounds it would fit easily since I only have about 280 feet for the left field fence - I needed to allow for foul ground behind the plate). However, the right field fence would be regulation distance (about 325 feet and then it would quickly get much deeper in right center and straight-away center)

This is just for fun, and some thought. I worry about a stadium that might only be used 15 times a year (maybe it could accommodate some exhibition Blue Jay games?).

[wespidel]

Thats it`s biggest drawback. I had people tell me that they wouldn`t go near the place or park a car in fear it would be stolen, it`s a very bad area for crime in Halifax and so are other areas!

[Waye Mason]

I didn't know they had killed Regina, I think half a billion was a bit rich for any city of 179,000 people.

I actually think a smaller version of the Sask model might sell me, if you put a one side of bleachers in with a 40 million dollar health centre, then you get a stadium and a Canada Games Centre size facility at once? Sounds good to me, it just means it needs to be placed somewhere that needs that centre. North End Halifax and Sackville come to mind.

The bigger picture above would fit at SMU, there is easily 20 feet of grass behind the existing bleachers, you might need to do some stuff around the loyola end, but the rest of it would be fine.

[FuzzyWuz]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

Surely, it can't be that bad?

Sorry to say that I know two families who have lost members to murder within a kilometer of that site.

[-Harlington-]

yeah, north dartmouth can get pretty bad
although i think there shouldnt be to many problems with a stadium there
they should put a bus stop/terminal there so people dont have to use highfield though, and parking structures in the stadium area.

[halifaxboyns]

One thing I would add to the debate about location @ Shannon Park - redevelopment often tends to create greater interest in a location and as a result, brings people there. Having more people in an area is a wonderful way to reduce crime because you organically end up with more 'eyes on the street'.

Granted, if this stadium is built like the commonwealth games proposal had suggested, the stadium site really doesn't have much of anything on it but the stadium. Personally, I'd suggest burying the overhead powerlines in the 4 lane road they proposed (in the centre, through an easement) and then that way the edges could have mixed use residential development there, along with a ferry terminal.

Victoria Park (here in Calgary) was once an area of high crime, but once development started happening - the crime rate started dropping due in part to more people in the area and the developments incorporated CPTED principals, so that there weren't 'great spots' for crime to occur. I'm not suggesting that redevelopment will completely clean up the area, but it will do some good and it may create a desire to clean up the area more by taking down older developments and putting up new ones. This is what happened to Connaught and many areas in the Beltine here in Calgary too - which is the area between the CP tracks south to 17th avenue - some of the most popular and highest density residental areas in the city.

[wackypacky]

The area is bad....but not as bad as its being made sound. North Dartmouth is a large area and theres good and bad, but I would say that the worst would be primrose and surrounding areas. Its kind of hard to say shannon park is bad for crime as there really isnt anyone living there anymore. Btw I would assume that if a stadium were to be built that they would also put in a bus terminal.

[fenwick16]

Here is a Street View link for McMahon Stadium in Calgary http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&q=mcmah...Z_fxhwgzILtYy-zGdw&cbp=12,238.49,,0,5.06 . It shows how a stadium such as McMahon Stadium can be built so inexpensively. The original structure was 22,000 seats and only cost $1,050,000 in 1960 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McMahon_Stadium . As a comparison, the Halifax Metro Centre was built for about $15 million in 1976 & 1977 (it opened in February 1978).

Just recently, in 2009, McMahon Stadium hosted the Grey Cup (although it had been expanded over the years and had luxury boxes added).

PS: Based on the following inflation calculator, http://www.bankofcanada.ca/en/rates/inflation_calc.html , $1,050,000 in 1960 would be equivalent to about $8,000,000 in today's dollars.

[thurmas]

You can't use a raw inflation calculator construction costs go up much faster than normal inflation. Just in 2 years the cost of the bomber stadium went from $115 million to $190 million.

[Waye Mason]

Originally Posted by thurmas

You can't use a raw inflation calculator construction costs go up much faster than normal inflation. Just in 2 years the cost of the bomber stadium went from $115 million to $190 million.

Yeah, just the cost of steel going up in 2005-2007 meant the new NSCC Waterfront phase one had to be smaller than originally planned.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by thurmas

You can't use a raw inflation calculator construction costs go up much faster than normal inflation. Just in 2 years the cost of the bomber stadium went from $115 million to $190 million.

You might be right, however, based on following that thread http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=123544&page=97 , this wasn't caused by inflation, it was just that the original rough estimate was way off.

There is a big difference in stadium constructions costs. So it isn't correct for people to compare a no-frills stadium with an extravagant stadium. The most basic stadium would just be stands and washrooms. This is a lot different than what is being built in Winnipeg, and the Winnipeg Stadium seems to be much more extravagant than McMahon Stadium (especially as it would have been in 1960).

Another example is the Pittsburgh Civic Arena that was built at the same time (1960) for $22 million and originally had only 12,500 seats - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civic_Arena_%28Pittsburgh%29 . That would make it about $162 million in current dollars (according to the Wikipedia article which seems to have used an inflation calculation) which sounds reasonable for a 12,500 seat arena with a retractable roof.

The following image link by Lucky Lukas at skyscrapercity shows the wide variation in stadium costs (the cost per seat is in British pounds £): http://www6.picfront.org/picture/7qHC4cJxxF/img/stadiumcostsperseat.jpg