Calgary Public Transit II

[Koolfire]

I'm going to throw this out there and by no means fully though this out:
4th St NW is going through traffic calming measures.
Why not just reduce 4st NW from 4 lanes to 2 and run it on the surface.
10th st and Centre st run in parallel in close proximity to 4th st able to handle the extra traffic.
There is enough space and 4st and Edmonton trail to do a interchange.
Between 16th st and 40th st no home front onto 4th street on the westside.
Between Mcknight and centre st no homes front the east side.
There would be some commercial properties effected.
This route would pass 2 high schools and 3(?) elementary schools.

[Robert in Calgary]

Originally Posted by Policy Wonk

Well yeah, that would be a little difficult in an area that was built-up over the last 40-70 years.

Make up your mind.

Is it a little difficult or impossible?

There's nothing unreasonable about demanding some sort of Centre Street route that will serve Calgarians instead of the foolish Nose Creek option to avoid serving Calgarians.

The city has no qualms about buying property for projects, in some cases over decades. Centre Street LRT is no different. Small efforts over the last 30 years and we would have the entire ROW right now.

For me, I'm fine with a route that generally stays close to Centre Street.

Between 41st and 56th Avenue, for example there is open space, green space, school yard space. It actually extends to 60th Avenue but I would want a station at 56th.

I guess all the professionals just "missed" all that space.

Between 64th Avenue and Beddington Blvd. Centre Street becomes wider and there's more green buffer space to work with.

Underground, open trench or some surface, it would all work here.

Tada! Right there, we've got about half the distance between downtown and Beddington Blvd.

Little difficult is correct grasshopper.

[Bassic Lab]

Originally Posted by Koolfire

I'm going to throw this out there and by no means fully though this out:
4th St NW is going through traffic calming measures.
Why not just reduce 4st NW from 4 lanes to 2 and run it on the surface.
10th st and Centre st run in parallel in close proximity to 4th st able to handle the extra traffic.
There is enough space and 4st and Edmonton trail to do a interchange.
Between 16th st and 40th st no home front onto 4th street on the westside.
Between Mcknight and centre st no homes front the east side.
There would be some commercial properties effected.
This route would pass 2 high schools and 3(?) elementary schools.

There are way too many crossings to effectively run an LRT system on the surface of any route. The blocks are too short to have stations that could handle more than three cars. It would be incredibly slow if it operated in the street; it would not be able to provide rapid service to downtown. It would create traffic chaos throughout north central Calgary. It would essentially be a nightmare to try and run anything west of Nose Creek that isn't either buried or elevated.

Beyond that, I'm not sure what you mean. 4 St NW doesn't intersect with Edmonton Trail so how could they have an interchange. Likewise, Centre Street and McKnight do intersect so there is no area between them.

[Jay El]

Originally Posted by magnetite

Had a question about the SD-160 model trains. Why do the brakes make a buzzing noise when the train is slowing down?

I believe it is the excess energy created while braking being released as heat. The energy is released from the bulky, silver boxes on the roof of the car. As an added benefit: it reminds people to hold on!

This is from an ETS document (page 2.9):

The SD160 LRV has three braking systems.
• Dynamic Braking System
Controlled dynamic braking will be continuously available from maximum vehicle speed
down to a speed of 5 km/h or less. This dynamic braking will be regenerative or rheostatic
depending on the receptivity of the overhead catenary system. The regenerative brake
control algorithm must return the maximum practicable amount of electric power to the
catenary until the overhead catenary system reaches a maximum voltage.
http://www.edmonton.ca/transportation/Ch2_Vehicles_Final.pdf

[Koolfire]

Originally Posted by Bassic Lab

Beyond that, I'm not sure what you mean. 4 St NW doesn't intersect with Edmonton Trail so how could they have an interchange. Likewise, Centre Street and McKnight do intersect so there is no area between them.

Meant McKnight trail. I was thinking closing 4 out 5 intersections at least. The more I think about it trenching would be the way to go from 16th on.

I'm starting to think this route would be on par with the per km cost of WLRT.
4th st compares to 17th ave trench
mcknight and 4th st compares to 17th and Sarcee Trail. Sunalta station compares to getting from beddington blvd to beddington trail.
Highland Golf course vs Shaganappi Golf course.
James Fowler compares to Ernest Manning but I don't see a need to demolish James Fowler.

WLRT 700million about 8 km, NC LRT 12 km so let's say 1.5 billion and add 500 million to tunnel under the bow river. I'm starting to see this as possible.

[Policy Wonk]

Originally Posted by DarkKeyo

I kind of wonder why you are arguing; You're doing a very good job of improving every pro-subway argument through practice, and I thank you for that, if not for the pages of reading debate, or for this:

Well, I can't really figure out what you guys are arguing either other than a subway would be bitchin' and money is no object when something is so totally cool.

You want to use a centre street subway as an instrument for the intensification of the centre street corridor. That is ridiculous because this would unleash a war the likes of which the city has never seen before and there is no money to do it in the first place. Pushing it is a distraction that undermines real potential LRT expansion.

Nose Creek is cost effective because it leverages a great deal of existing infrastructure and requires minimal "3D".

[Policy Wonk]

Originally Posted by Bassic Lab

Why would as many busses still need to access downtown? In the event of a Centre Street Subway the areas bus service should be entirely reworked. Instead of a system of north-south bus routes we would have west-east routes intersection with subway stations. People would be forced to transfer to the subway.

Have you guys actually read anything that Calgary Transit itself has said on the subject? Or is this just another subject around here where collective fantasy becomes the conventional wisdom?

In 2006 when the North Central alignment was last reviewed Calgary Transit said themselves that communities south of Beddington Blvd would continue to be served by conventional bus routes. The Nose Creek LRT is intensely focused around serving the Northern suburbs. You might not appreciate that but but please at least judge its suitability relative to the only purpose it has ever been intended for and not as an instrument to intensify centre street. The subway doesn't really change that because there will only be a handful of stations to begin with. So yes, there will be, as there are today a significant number of buses shadowing the Centre Street subway along with other buses enroute to the core.

[Policy Wonk]

Originally Posted by Robert in Calgary

Make up your mind.

Is it a little difficult or impossible?

You are calling negligence on the city for failing to develop contingencies for something they have no intention of doing... It would have served no purpose and would have been very difficult to no productive end.

I guess all the professionals just "missed" all that space.

No... the professionals who see the big picture that includes budgets, politics and other boring things saw this for the pipe dream it is decades ago and circular filed it accordingly.

Nothing has been said here that wasn't said in 1985.

[Policy Wonk]

Originally Posted by Koolfire

Right, so we can build and LRT what can do that on tracks beside CPR mainline and a commuter running on track(s) beside the CPR Mainline. I'm not sure if dual tracks would be necessary for the commuter rail but there is no reason that we couldn't build a separate track within city limits and join up with the regular track outside the city.

Great... I eagerly await the visit of the heavy rail fairy right after the visit of the subway fairy.

I hope the NC LRT doesn't wipeout my existence. It's not about having more riders from existing neighbourhoods but serving existing riders. Even if there is no intensification of the area, what everyone seems to miss is that the area will attract more residents that will ride the LRT to get around. Over years riders will replace non-riders increasing ridership. Non-riders usually will not move as close to station as they don't value the station as much.

There can be no credible case for a subway (at any cost) without major intensification, there can be no intensification without a full fledged war which will give rise to local demagogues out to "save the community" who will either make City Hall cave or themselves get elected to City Hall and wreak havoc on that and other issues.

Complete BS, look no further then Maxbell station and Mayland Heights industrial. There's even a large area that has been environmentally reclaimed and still undeveloped. And Industrial areas can have just as much NIMBY's as the next neighbourhood but with deeper pockets.

No, it is entirely different. What is the reason it is so difficult to redevelop zones of discard? Because you can build the nicest building the world has ever seen - but the next block is still shit. The advantage of Nose Creek is the area just isn't that large and can be digested quickly.

My biggest fear is that an Nose Creek alignment will result in worse service for residents south of Beddington by a drop in bus frequencies and rerouting current routes from downtown to LRT stations which result in longer commutes.

It has always been the intention of Calgary Transit to retain existing legacy routes and BRT south of Beddington Trail. The Nose Creek LRT has always been oriented to serving the Northern suburbs, the rest just doesn't come into it.

[Koolfire]

Originally Posted by Koolfire

With the current transit service the real choke point for buses is the Centre St bridge/Chinatown being 4 lanes. That's not getting wider and there is no way to get more buses on there without making the bridge buses only. I would imagine that would be wildly unpopular. From Country Hills on 301 it takes 24 minutes to get to 16th from Country Hills(10km or average speed 25km/h) then it takes 10 minutes to get to 6th (2km or 12km/h). For reference, the NELRT from Whitehorn to downtown is 17mins (10 km or 35km/h) and Nose Creek alignment would be about 17km to Country Hills from Downtown and there for assuming similar speed that one gets to Whitehorn it would be about 30 minute trip. Now if you could maintain the 25km/h average up downtown then the bus and Nose Creek LRT would arrive at the same time.

Policy Wonk I had to look up this post from way back when. Spending more then 100 million on the NC LRT Nose Creek would be crazy as it only improves service speed from the furthest destination by a whooping 4 minutes. LRT ride 30 minutes, Bus 34 minutes. We could get 4 minute improvement by an interchange at McKnight and Centre and 16th and Centre with way less cost. Even with the cost to acquire property.

[Bassic Lab]

Originally Posted by Policy Wonk

Well, I can't really figure out what you guys are arguing either other than a subway would be bitchin' and money is no object when something is so totally cool.

You want to use a centre street subway as an instrument for the intensification of the centre street corridor. That is ridiculous because this would unleash a war the likes of which the city has never seen before and there is no money to do it in the first place. Pushing it is a distraction that undermines real potential LRT expansion.

Nose Creek is cost effective because it leverages a great deal of existing infrastructure and requires minimal "3D".

Does it leverage existing infrastructure or does it overburden existing infrastructure? How long will 7 Ave, even after the NW-S line is moved, have spare capacity that can be turned over to the N LRT? Aside from issues of cost and redevelopment, what do you suggest we do when capacity is maxed because of interlining?

I can't think of very many fixes that would be significantly cheaper than simply building the Subway in the first place.

[Koolfire]

Originally Posted by Policy Wonk

Great... I eagerly await the visit of the heavy rail fairy right after the visit of the subway fairy.

Do you have their number?

Originally Posted by Policy Wonk

There can be no credible case for a subway (at any cost) without major intensification, there can be no intensification without a full fledged war which will give rise to local demagogues out to "save the community" who will either make City Hall cave or themselves get elected to City Hall and wreak havoc on that and other issues.

I'm not convinced.

Originally Posted by Policy Wonk

No, it is entirely different. What is the reason it is so difficult to redevelop zones of discard? Because you can build the nicest building the world has ever seen - but the next block is still shit. The advantage of Nose Creek is the area just isn't that large and can be digested quickly.

No it worse. Mayland Heights is build beside residential. There is already a community there but the industrial area has not been absorbed what so ever. And it's a smaller area then what your talking about.

Originally Posted by Policy Wonk

It has always been the intention of Calgary Transit to retain existing legacy routes and BRT south of Beddington Trail. The Nose Creek LRT has always been oriented to serving the Northern suburbs, the rest just doesn't come into it.

We'll see. But I have serious doubts because as soon as you have stations at 64th and 32nd your going to have route capacity diverted.

[Bassic Lab]

Originally Posted by Policy Wonk

Have you guys actually read anything that Calgary Transit itself has said on the subject? Or is this just another subject around here where collective fantasy becomes the conventional wisdom?

In 2006 when the North Central alignment was last reviewed Calgary Transit said themselves that communities south of Beddington Blvd would continue to be served by conventional bus routes. The Nose Creek LRT is intensely focused around serving the Northern suburbs. You might not appreciate that but but please at least judge its suitability relative to the only purpose it has ever been intended for and not as an instrument to intensify centre street. The subway doesn't really change that because there will only be a handful of stations to begin with. So yes, there will be, as there are today a significant number of buses shadowing the Centre Street subway along with other buses enroute to the core.

We have read the city documents. Of course the city would maintain bus service south of Beddington if they built the Nose Creek alignment. They would have to. That has no bearing on what Calgary Transit would do if they built a Centre Street Subway instead.

We are all aware that Nose Creek was chosen with the intention of serving northern suburbs. This was not because it was necessarily the best option. It was predicated on two determinations. First, that a subway would be too expensive. Second, that ridership would be low enough on the NE LRT and the N LRT that interlining would not cause problems. Since that decision was made things have changed. The city's financial situation has improved with the addition of gas tax money from the federal government and MSI funding from the province. Ridership has increased a great deal. The C-Train is much more successful than anyone thought it would be. It does not have the same kind of spare capacity that planners believed it would. Given those changes it is time we rethink the alignment of the North LRT.

[Policy Wonk]

Originally Posted by Koolfire

No it worse. Mayland Heights is build beside residential. There is already a community there but the industrial area has not been absorbed what so ever. And it's a smaller area then what your talking about.

Mayland Heights is a toilet in its own right with or without the industrial and was there first, that doesn't address the potential for redevelopment of the Greenview Insdustrial area.

We'll see. But I have serious doubts because as soon as you have stations at 64th and 32nd your going to have route capacity diverted.

Routes will be adjusted based on the demand from North that is diverted to the LRT, but there is no reason to believe they could cut off Centre Street.

[Policy Wonk]

Originally Posted by Koolfire

Policy Wonk I had to look up this post from way back when. Spending more then 100 million on the NC LRT Nose Creek would be crazy as it only improves service speed from the furthest destination by a whooping 4 minutes. LRT ride 30 minutes, Bus 34 minutes. We could get 4 minute improvement by an interchange at McKnight and Centre and 16th and Centre with way less cost. Even with the cost to acquire property.

That doesn't account for two things:

1. An LRT consist holds a lot more people than an articulated bus and I personally had to stop riding transit because I couldn't squeeze my ass on the 301 before 8:45 in the morning boarding opposite the 78th ave loop. The 301 and its success North of Beddington Trail is what led the city to reaffirm its commitment to the Nose Creek alignment pre-Nenshi.
2. The Nose Creek alignment will have several areas where the LRV's can operate at high speed given distances between stations and the distance between 64th Ave and the first stop on the Northern ROW.

[Policy Wonk]

Originally Posted by Bassic Lab

Does it leverage existing infrastructure or does it overburden existing infrastructure? How long will 7 Ave, even after the NW-S line is moved, have spare capacity that can be turned over to the N LRT? Aside from issues of cost and redevelopment, what do you suggest we do when capacity is maxed because of interlining?

I can't think of very many fixes that would be significantly cheaper than simply building the Subway in the first place.

For the millionth line the limitations of 7th Ave will have to be confronted with or without the Nose Creek LRT and probably will have been years before construction of the Nose Creek or Centre Street LRT commences.

We ran the LRT above ground through downtown, we have to live with that.

[Policy Wonk]

Originally Posted by Bassic Lab

We have read the city documents. Of course the city would maintain bus service south of Beddington if they built the Nose Creek alignment. They would have to. That has no bearing on what Calgary Transit would do if they built a Centre Street Subway instead.

Okay... so not only are going to find money for building this subway, they can also afford to build stations really, really close together?

Why didn't the Nose Creek LRT plan call for feeder buses running east and west to the Nose Creek stations rather than maintaining bus service on Centre Street? There will buses shadowing the LRT route and combined with those just enroute to the core via Centre Street and with significant frequency. Route 10 for instance mirrors a trip one can make entirely on the C-Train! Why does this seem unlikely to people?

We are all aware that Nose Creek was chosen with the intention of serving northern suburbs. This was not because it was necessarily the best option. It was predicated on two determinations. First, that a subway would be too expensive. Second, that ridership would be low enough on the NE LRT and the N LRT that interlining would not cause problems.

No, as originally conceived the North Central LRT would have run up Centre Street as far as 64th Ave before segueing to the Nose Creek ROW. Following the Nose Creek ROW from the start came only after the Centre Street alternative had been decisively rejected.

Since that decision was made things have changed. The city's financial situation has improved with the addition of gas tax money from the federal government and MSI funding from the province. Ridership has increased a great deal.

Again, this was last revisited in 2006. Nothing was deemed to have changed at that time - except costs further favoured Nose Creek than ever before.

The C-Train is much more successful than anyone thought it would be. It does not have the same kind of spare capacity that planners believed it would. Given those changes it is time we rethink the alignment of the North LRT.

None of that comes into the alignment of the North LRT. It is successful because of its utility in delivering suburban douchebags to their jobs downtown. Not by its virtue as an urban transit system.

[Bassic Lab]

Originally Posted by Policy Wonk

For the millionth line the limitations of 7th Ave will have to be confronted with or without the Nose Creek LRT and probably will have been years before construction of the Nose Creek or Centre Street LRT commences.

We ran the LRT above ground through downtown, we have to live with that.

The current limitations of 7 Ave will be dealt with by burying the NW-S Line under 8 Ave. This will end interlining and effectively double capacity into the core. Having done that we will decide it makes sense to reinitiate interlining and cause ourselves the same problem all over again? Doing so would cripple its ability to effectively deliver people from the suburbs to downtown, be they douchebags or not. We do have to live with 7 Ave; we do not have to make it worse.

I do agree with you that some bus service would undoubtedly continue along major corridors in North Central Calgary. Just looking at the S LRT would show us the need. There is still bus service along Macleod Trail and the #3 continues to be busy despite operating on a parallel route in close proximity along Elbow Drive. That said, a subway would undoubtedly lead to significant changes, including an overall decline in the number of busses operating, to service in the area. Just like how bus service in South Calgary would have to change substantially were the S LRT to disappear.

The only negative to the Centre Street Subway is cost. In every other aspect it is equal, if not superior, to the Nose Creek alignment. It would serve the northern suburbs just as well. It would increase the maximum theoretical capacity into the downtown core. It would service the area south of Beddington Trail much better. Those benefits are worth something. Are they worth the increased cost? That is a matter for debate. At a minimum the city should develop some more concrete cost estimates. Then we would know what kind of numbers we are talking about. I think that an extra 30 000 or so people per hour into the core (roughly the maximum capacity of a single LRT line) is worth a great deal while better service along Centre Street is worth somewhat less but still valuable.

If we are going to build a line primarily to service the northern hills suburbs and interline it with the NE LRT we might as well use 96 Ave/Airport Trail to do it. I do think an Airport connection is mostly a vanity project but the Airport is a more valid destination than anything along Nose Creek. Cost should be comparable between the two options. Then, when some mixture of available funding, capacity issues along the interlined portion, and natural intensification along Centre Street makes the Subway necessary or attractive, we can still revisit the decision without having wasted money on the Nose Creek alignment. At some point we would likely build an Airport connection either way, simply because a lot of people want it. Travel times would be longer than using Nose Creek until the Harvest Hills portion was rerouted to the Subway but sooner or later it would be. 7 Ave and the NE LRT would eventually become overburdened. Bus congestion along Centre Street will eventually become a problem

[fusili]

Originally Posted by Policy Wonk

Have you guys actually read anything that Calgary Transit itself has said on the subject? Or is this just another subject around here where collective fantasy becomes the conventional wisdom?

Calgary Transit will be starting the public consultation aspect of the Centre Street Subway in fall. That is a fact. They are as much on board about this as we are.

[You Need A Thneed]

Simply put, either we spend money tunnelling some of the NC line under centre street, or we spend money figuring how to get the NC line from the nose creek valley into down town, and create another new line downtown.

If we connect the NC LRT as an extention of the SE LRT, that saves the additional downtown line cost for that line, which would cover a whole bunch of the tunneling under centre street cost.

Like was stated, the Nose Creek line is envisioned as joining the NE line at Zoo station. This would require one of:

1. Interlining between 11th Street W and the Zoo - not acceptable due turn around train in the middle of a line, operational problems.
2. Interlining between 69th Street W and the Zoo - would overserve the West line, and underserve the NE line - not acceptable.
3. Require a transfer onto the NE line at zoo station - capacity issues.

Policy Wonk, you claim that a centre street subway is never going to happen due to cost, but you also have to recognize that a Nose Creek routing is never going to happen due to being completely inadequate, or not saving much money at all.

Also, the city's latest plan (2010) shows a Nose Creek line, PLUS a streetcar down centre street - why not just combine the costs into one solution? Especially when the problems with the Nose Creek routing still exist as I and others have described, and a streetcar still has to interact with traffic, limiting its effectiveness.

I bet you could build the NC line up centre street as an extension of the SE line for roughly the same cost as a Nose Creek alignment and a centre street streetcar. The centre street LRT routing would be roughly the same cost, and much more effective.