Calgary Stoney Trail [Ring Road]

[Jack Doe]

Again, there is no land claim dispute. Nobody is disputing who owns what land.

[Oliver Klozov]

Again, so what. It doesn't matter that this isn't a land claim issue. If the PMO were to weigh in on this issue, which would overstep procedural and jurisdictional protocol, then the AFN would demand he weigh in on all land claim issues. That would be a PR nightmare for the PMO.

[MalcolmTucker]

The government transfer all sort of land - AFN can't block something that the local nation has approved. A couple years ago a block inside of Winnipeg was transferred to a reserve for Pete's sake as part of a deal.

Way over simplification - you aren't going to have people blockading the rail lines and roads all over Canada over transacting a deal that a reserve signed.

[UofC.engineer]

Originally Posted by fusili

The difference is that the Tsuu Tina land is completely under different legal territory than private property. They signed treaties with the Federal Government granting them that land, and the government does not have the legal right to expropriate. Although this is rather simplistic, the Tsuu Tina nation (a more correct term than reserve IMO), is more like a separate country than it is a piece of property within Canada. They enact their own laws and most provincial laws do not apply there (which is why they can have smoking in their casinos). So it is better to think of it as a small country within Canada rather than just another piece of property.

Sorry, my grasp of Spanish wasn't good enough to write that.

No, don't feel bad, i'm impressed, your spanish is quite good

[freeweed]

Originally Posted by Sir.Humphrey.Appleby

you aren't going to have people blockading the rail lines and roads all over Canada over transacting a deal that a reserve signed.

Technically we already have, and many times.

Not that I think this is the case here.

[fusili]

Originally Posted by UofC.engineer

No, don't feel bad, i'm impressed, your spanish is quite good

I took two years at the UofC, then lived in Peru for 2 months, travelled through South America for a month and lived in Barcelona for 4 months. I learned the most Spanish by far the 2 months I lived with a Peruvian family. They could count to 10 and say hi in English and that was it. When you are forced to, you pick up a language pretty fast.

[para transit fellow]

The problem I see with this land transfer is that no one is looking at how much of a fight there will be by the folks currently leasing the crown land on the west end of the Tsu Tina land.

There is big money on these leases, rent charged for surface access rights to oil and gas... and sometimes there is a dollar to be made in the cattle industry... Add in Alberta's oldest families and you have a long courtroom debacle before the lands can be transferred.

I believe the Tsu Tina were correct in wanting a more concrete deal... They know the cattlemen using this land won't give it up without a fight.

[MalcolmTucker]

The province can expropriate any land at all, so presumably they could and were prepared to cancel leases. All you need to do is offer fair compensation to the lease holders if the leases are for a long term.

This the the government, you can't stop them from taking stuff. You can make sure you get compensated, but even if other people owned it the province could promise it in a deal.

[Jack Doe]

"The first series of public open houses for the planning study will take place February 22, 23 and 24 in Calgary, March 1 in Okotoks and March 3 in Rocky view County."

http://www.transportation.alberta.ca/4043.htm

Open Houses will be held from 4:00-8:00 pm at the following locations:
 Tues. Feb. 22 – Bethany Chapel (3333 Richardson Way SW)
 Wed. Feb. 23 – Acadia Recreation Complex (240 – 90 Avenue SE)
 Thurs. Feb. 24 – Fish Creek Recreation Complex (100, 333 Shawville Blvd SW)
 Tues. Mar. 1 – Foothills Community Centennial Centre (4, 204 Community Way, Okotoks)
 Thurs. Mar. 3 – Elbow Springs Golf Course Clubhouse (240086 Lott Creek Boulevard, west of Calgary near Highway 8)

[craner]

^Thanks JD - I plan on attending one of those.

[kw5150]

Originally Posted by Sir.Humphrey.Appleby

The province can expropriate any land at all, so presumably they could and were prepared to cancel leases. All you need to do is offer fair compensation to the lease holders if the leases are for a long term.

This the the government, you can't stop them from taking stuff. You can make sure you get compensated, but even if other people owned it the province could promise it in a deal.

Exactly. And the price better be good for that prime property! Its just business.

[Koolfire]

So I saw on CBC that there was another open house on the SWRR. For the sounds of it the participants weren't too excited about the 5 options. That doesn't surprise me. I'm not really sure why the province didn't examine option 4 more. Bridge vs Tunnel

[freeweed]

Originally Posted by Koolfire

So I saw on CBC that there was another open house on the SWRR. For the sounds of it the participants weren't too excited about the 5 options. That doesn't surprise me. I'm not really sure why the province didn't examine option 4 more. Bridge vs Tunnel

Every single participant was some old fuddy-duddy who lived 2 blocks from the road. And likely doesn't own a car with more than 4000km on it.

I had to laugh at the news stories on this - they basically amounted to "NO BUILDING IT ON 37TH, BUT MAKING A FREEWAY THROUGH THE CITY IS BAD TOO". Um, those literally are your only 2 options, folks, there ain't any more land available. Use your freaking heads. If you want to argue no SWRR, have the balls to say it.

[Mazrim]

Originally Posted by Koolfire

I'm not really sure why the province didn't examine option 4 more. Bridge vs Tunnel

Do you really think it's an affordable option? I'm sure they did a high level estimate and called it a day, because not only is the level of disturbance still high with a tunnel, the cost is enormous.

[MalcolmTucker]

With a tunnel, everyone along the route being expropriated will just say 'extend the tunnel' to save my house, it is only an extra 100 m, etc, etc. Because there really isn't a 85m corridor until after Anderson, we will end up with an 8 km tunnel running from Sarcee/Highway 8/Glenmore to Anderson and 37th St.

That would be a huge white elephant project. A tunnel, to protect a creek and homes, next to a huge empty expanse of land.

In my mind there are only really two options that can be built without a totally ruinous expense, expropriation and a bridge, or bisecting the reserve. Even then, neither have clear paths and it is likely easier to build through the reserve with all that entails than to deal with people loosing their homes (fully compensated of course), and building a more than sensitive to the environment bridge.

[Doug]

Couldn't the amount of land needed be dramatically reduced? The last plan I saw had the SWRR requiring reservation land south of 90th Ave, presumably to push it further away from homes in Oakridge and Cedarbrae. There is definetly enough room from 90th south to locate the entire road on City property. There could also be potential to run the ROW down 37th and then jog west to avoid the Weaselhead and then jog east again to rejoin the 37th alignment. I'm unsure if reducing the amount of land required would make the deal more palatable.

[MalcolmTucker]

Well, for the deal on the reserve, the province wanted a corridor big enough to handle all future utility and transportation needs. So 16 lanes of freeway, a couple high tension power lines and such. It was the provinces position that they didn't want to have to go through this all again in 50 years when they needed more land for the outer ring road.

Moving it away from Lakeview and the Weaselhead was also a plus, it avoided the opposition from the local community. It also allowed for an overpass to be built for a huge on reserve power/employment centre that was to be built. That was a big benefit for the reserve.


Taking strips from the north and eastern edges instead solves the expropriation problem, and some of the band members' reservations being cut in two, but Lakeview is still going to be pissy, as will general environmentalists. Even without expropriation it is hard to imagine a government that needs every seat it can get doing such a thing. It also is just another stop gap in the end.

[You Need A Thneed]

just thinking about this today, I'm guessing that this project goes nowhere for the next 20 years.

Too many people will be made unhappy, no matter what they do, so no one will step up and make a hard decision.

[Stang]

Originally Posted by You Need A Thneed

just thinking about this today, I'm guessing that this project goes nowhere for the next 20 years.

Too many people will be made unhappy, no matter what they do, so no one will step up and make a hard decision.

I wouldn't be surprised. There aren't really any viable options (assuming that the Tsuu Tina option is dead) that won't be extremely unpopular with someone, and nobody will be willing to take the political risk to push something through. I can't see something like Crowchild happening again (which was cut through a large portion of the SW). Before my time, but it is pretty clear that they would have had to take out a few homes for that one.

If you're right, what happens in 10, 20, or 30 years? The issue won't be going away. Do we settle with an incomplete ring, or do we revisit the idea when it costs more money, disrupts more people, etc.?

[Stang]

Originally Posted by freeweed

I had to laugh at the news stories on this - they basically amounted to "NO BUILDING IT ON 37TH, BUT MAKING A FREEWAY THROUGH THE CITY IS BAD TOO". Um, those literally are your only 2 options, folks, there ain't any more land available. Use your freaking heads. If you want to argue no SWRR, have the balls to say it.

I think that we're approaching the point where the city/province has to say "OK - we're going 37th and Weaselhead. Now how can we do this with the least impact on the neighbourhood, environment, etc."

The 14th street options are patchwork and would be far more disruptive to more communities without really addressing the traffic issues of the area. The Tsuu Tina deal should be forgotten until the city has an actual plan that they are prepared to enact. If the Nation wants to come back and accept the previous offer (or a slightly clarified/re-tooled version), great, but otherwise it is time to get on with it.

I would like to see the impact on Lakeview and the Weaselhead kept to a minimum, of course, but I don't see another way to do it, realistically. Poor planning a long time ago is the culprit, but at some point we have to move on and push ahead.