Calgary Stoney Trail [Ring Road]

[Oliver Klozov]

Originally Posted by Sir.Humphrey.Appleby

Can always net in the road deck no?

Ever seen the overpass over the TCH at Morley?

That wasn't for flying litter but ...........

[Mazrim]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

My concern is not so much the construction, as it is the actual traffic using the bridge. Have you ever seen the disgusting amount of plastic wrap and trash that flies off of inproperly tarped truck loads? I swear a good third of litter in this city, and almost 100% of the litter on highways is from trucks.

Huh, I don't remember garbage raining from the sky when I was in Bowness Park.

[Ferreth]

What I'm wondering is there any land negotiation that could be done that wouldn't come down to a vote? Negotiating for a thin strip along 37th St/Glenmore with the idea that the Province could build some extra access into the reserve that could be developed, hell kick in some seed money that would've had to be spent buying up homes.

If it came down to HAVING to vote, I'd promise each Indian $10K $CA$H for land compensation, at 20 Mil still a bargain (we could go higher, IANAP). Nothing like appealing directly to the pocket book to influence the vote

Wait, that sounds like it's been done before...

[Wentworth]

Let them own the road. They can operate it as a for-profit electronic toll road. The feds can provide loan financing. No land changes hands, they retain sovereignty. Get the opinion leaders in the reserve community involved in the planning so that they don't have the same disconnect as last time between band members and band leadership. The route will probably have to be modified somewhat from the previous proposal to save face.

[bakersdozen]

What's the estimated cost difference between doing a deal with the nation and building a crazy bridge over the wetlands? I wonder if it's a break even when comparing the choices... if so I say renegotiate.

[UofC.engineer]

Originally Posted by kw5150

Well the land belongs to them. How would you feel about a large freeway running through your land? They have every right to want to get the best deal. Has the whole process been perfect? Absolutely not, but I hope we are moving beyond the past issues. Maybe the timing is better now that the area has a more clear direction going forward?

Maybe the Tsuu Tina had plans for that land tat we dont know about.......

If it was your land the government would buy it off you for a price that is...hmmmm...above market value and probably a good deal on the whole, even if you didn't want to sell it. Do you know why??? because you are not native. special rights for special people. I understand what happened to natives in the late 19th century was wrong, and I know this is part of a bigger issue and I know this is a Stoney Trail Forum, but this system is ridiculous. It is like apartheid, special rights for a people solely based on their race and where they live.

Com'on even you Ottawa, pink hearted, I love Pierre Trudeau liberals gotta admitt this is not right.

And before all of you bust out your torches and pitch forks on me ask yourself a question.

Was it me that colonized a continent?
Should I suffer for the sins of my forefathers?

I am not an evil man, I would like to see the quality of life improve for everyone living on a reserve, all I am saying is this system is not working.

You cannot chage the past but can change the future.

Maybe I don't understand the guilt you guys feel.I moved here from Argentina, I don't owe these people a thing...

[UofC.engineer]

Look on Google earth and see how many houses you can find on the NE section of the reserve...

How many people would actually be affected?

1000 people holding back 1 million...unbeliveable.

[fusili]

What just happened to this forum?

PS- UofC Engineer: Debes entender que los indigenos de todo de America (norte y sur), incluyido los de Argentina, tiene los mismos derechos como todo la gente. La tierra en el sur oeste de Calgary es su propriedad y tiene el derecho hacer lo que quieren con lo. No podemos tomar su tierra, es illegal.

[UofC.engineer]

Originally Posted by fusili

What just happened to this forum?

PS- UofC Engineer: Debes entender que los indigenos de todo de America (norte y sur), incluyido los de Argentina, tiene los mismos derechos como todo la gente. La tierra en el sur oeste de Calgary es su propriedad y tiene el derecho hacer lo que quieren con lo. No podemos tomar su tierra, es illegal.

La ciudad puede expropriar mi casa. La West LRT proyecto expropriado los casas y la tierra de mucho gente.

[Jack Doe]

Originally Posted by UofC.engineer

La ciudad puede expropriar mi casa. La West LRT proyecto expropriado los casas y la tierra de mucho gente.

The city can't expropriate land that isn't in the city. As well, the province can't expropriate federal land (the reserve).

[MasterG]

Originally Posted by suburb

Even then, the value of what was proposed was substantial to say the least. If it was for reserve land, it would have not been such a high ratio and money on top. I believe what had been proposed was more than fair - especially when you consider that Tsuu T'ina First Nation's on-reserve population is less than 2,400 (how is that for sprawl). The proposal would have seen the First Nation transfer 400 hectares of land in exchange for $240 million and 2,000 hectares of Crown land on the northwest border of the reserve stretching west to the edge of Kananskis Country. That would have been $100,000 per person on top of five hectares for each hectare provided. Personally I think it was too much and I think if the land is sacred to the nation, we should respect that and not push them more. Find a way to deal with what is available - and the Tsuu T'ina land is not available.

If i remember the news when that deal was rejected, the issue was that the Tsuu T'ina land deal on the northwest side was proposed, as in the deal did not officially transfer the land (as it requires approval from aboriginal affairs, federal agencies etc.) just that the province will work to give that, which at the time appeared doubtful it could happen quickly or easily. Many of the Tsuu T'ina leaders felt that it might never happen.

If the land swap was straight forward and simple i agree that it was a solid deal. But dealing with the federal government about aboriginal affairs, especially land issues is a bureaucratic nightmare. I would agree that from the Tsuu T'ina perspective, its not a fair shake until that can be guaranteed.

[Jack Doe]

Interesting note: if the SWRR is built on the 37 St SW alignment it's in the federal riding of Calgary SW and if built on Tsuu Tina lands it's just outside the western boundary. Guess who the local (and my) MP is, and why he's been completely MIA on the subject?

[Oliver Klozov]

The notion that the deal fell apart because the province could not guarantee that the feds would add the land to the reserve is a red herring, a cheap excuse. When the province bought land off the Stoneys for the Trans-Canada, the deal was negotiated and a deal struck THEN they applied to the feds to add the land to the reserve. That land isn't even contiguous with the main reserve.

In any case, any deal requires both parties to live up to their side of the bargain. If the feds refused to add the land to the reserve, then the deal is broken and the province doesn't get the land from the reserve and no part of the deal moves forward.

[freeweed]

Originally Posted by suburb

Yeah - there needs to be a balance in the green talk. An animal other than a human poops and it is called nature. A human animal poops and it is meddling with nature. To me it's all fertilizer.

There's a very old expression about not shitting where you live, sometimes modified as "don't shit where you eat" or (appropriate here) "don't shit in your water supply".

The difference between animals and humans is that we have the intelligence to actually understand when that's a bad thing. Well, some of us anyway.

[freeweed]

Originally Posted by UofC.engineer

Was it me that colonized a continent?
Should I suffer for the sins of my forefathers?

Look, let me explain something to you about recently-colonized landmasses:

You know how in Europe - people have memories going back centuries and they still remember some grudge their great^26 grandfather perpetuated on their neighbour's great^25 uncle? And we have current events today actually being influenced by stuff that happened only in history books, to a people almost unrelated to the currently affected people?

We're just trying to be like them. It really bothers a lot of people that there's nothing "old" in North America (this applies to Australia too), so we have to come up with something that feels like an ancient grievance. Otherwise we don't have enough "culture" and we're not a "real country".

I only wish I was being tongue-in-cheek.

[outoftheice]

Originally Posted by Jack Doe

Interesting note: if the SWRR is built on the 37 St SW alignment it's in the federal riding of Calgary SW and if built on Tsuu Tina lands it's just outside the western boundary. Guess who the local (and my) MP is, and why he's been completely MIA on the subject?

My thoughts exactly... My understanding is the previous ring road deal fell through because the Tsuu Tina were concerned about making the deal and then not receiving federal approval. If only there was a way to cut through the red tape and present them with a land transfer deal that already had federal approval... it's too bad there are no high level MPs who represent that area of the city who can make a difference.... wait a minute, the MP for Lakeview is the frigg'n Prime Minister!!!! If the Prime Minister of the country can't pull a few strings to cut through some red tape to prevent a large portion of his riding from being bulldozed then what good is it having a PM from Calgary??

As soon as the Tsuu Tina stated that their reason for rejecting the deal was because they wanted something more concrete, the ring road became an issue involving the federal government. I don't understand why that angle hasn't been explored further by the media. Putting pressure on MPs in the Calgary area might just salvage the original deal made between the province and the Tsuu Tina. Even if it doesn't, it may just shake loose a few extra federal infrastructure dollars to try and the problem go away... seems like a win-win idea to me...

[fusili]

Originally Posted by UofC.engineer

La ciudad puede expropriar mi casa. La West LRT proyecto expropriado los casas y la tierra de mucho gente.

The difference is that the Tsuu Tina land is completely under different legal territory than private property. They signed treaties with the Federal Government granting them that land, and the government does not have the legal right to expropriate. Although this is rather simplistic, the Tsuu Tina nation (a more correct term than reserve IMO), is more like a separate country than it is a piece of property within Canada. They enact their own laws and most provincial laws do not apply there (which is why they can have smoking in their casinos). So it is better to think of it as a small country within Canada rather than just another piece of property.

Sorry, my grasp of Spanish wasn't good enough to write that.

[Cage]

Out of the Ice et al,

As soon as Fed gov't gets involved with SWRR, all other land claim disputes across Canada get brought into the debate by Assembly of First Nations. This is why PMO is not getting involved in the Tsu Tina dispute.

[Jack Doe]

It's not a land claim dispute, it's a land transfer transaction.

[Cage]

The minute the PMO sound bites on the Tsu Tina land transfer, the issue immediately becomes embroiled in land claim dispute. AFN will not let the opportunity of a PMO PR nightmare pass them by.